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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 30, 2007 17:19:07 GMT -5
Are there any differences between the fellowship that William Irvine started and what is being practiced today by the F&W?
This is a legitimate question... I don't know the answer.
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Post by yes on Oct 1, 2007 3:56:30 GMT -5
Yes, because everything evolves over time.
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Post by ranman77007 on Oct 1, 2007 4:42:14 GMT -5
we'll never know.
who did william irvine profess through ? or was that different also ?
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 1, 2007 6:19:50 GMT -5
I mean differences in doctrine, not black stockings to pink stockings, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2007 7:55:14 GMT -5
Wasn't he into astral travel? Didn't he believe he was one of the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation? (oops... sorry, I mentioned those unscriptural 2x2's again!)
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Post by jh62 on Oct 1, 2007 9:13:32 GMT -5
I may be wrong on this, and Cherie would probably be the one to know since she's done extensive research, but at first, I think maybe the idea that this was the "only" way, wasn't as prevalent as it is now?
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Post by Brick on Oct 1, 2007 10:06:48 GMT -5
My understanding of WI's early ministry is that his calling was first for people to become workers, then after some time, the calling was for people to be ordinary Christians, living in their own home rather than a traveling minister/evangelist. As far as specific beliefs or doctrines, I don't believe that it was exclusive at first, but it evolved into that over time.
But as it has already been said, Cherie's site would have more detail on this.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 1, 2007 11:29:26 GMT -5
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willy irvine standing up
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Post by willy irvine standing up on Oct 1, 2007 12:28:37 GMT -5
I mean differences in doctrine, not black stockings to pink stockings, etc. but if william irvine did not profess in a gospel meeting, then that is a major shift in doctrine.
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Post by founded on Oct 1, 2007 20:09:37 GMT -5
Wasn't he into astral travel? Didn't he believe he was one of the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation? (oops... sorry, I mentioned those unscriptural 2x2's again!) yes and wasn't he the one who started your group just 110 years or so ago. Your group is sure founded on the false teachings or this man.
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matia
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Post by matia on Oct 1, 2007 23:01:04 GMT -5
Yes WI came out of the Faith Mission / Yes if they wore black stocking long ago , why have they changed??
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Post by diet coke on Oct 2, 2007 11:38:26 GMT -5
rofl!
re: Irvine professing: In which gospel meeting did Jesus profess?
re: astral travel: Wouldn't it be just as easy for God to land on some other rock as ours? Wouldn't it be just as possible after death to go planet-hopping as it would heaven-hopping? You yourself believe in some pretty amazing things, just as likely to be "false doctrine".
re: black stockings: Why does ANY christian religion change? Why did it change so much in the first years after Jesus died? To get closer to God and to keep up with the times, I guess!
ick, I'm starting to sound like Bert! But seriously, are there any significant changes in doctrine? It's hard to stay, it's hard to nail down the "doctrine" of course, but it does seem like there are general shifts in belief and manner of worship, in the early years and latter years if not the 70 years in the middle.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 2, 2007 12:10:40 GMT -5
ick, I'm starting to sound like Bert! I can't believe I wrote this, I'm sorry Bert. I was referring to the way you sometimes answer questions with questions and quasi-cynical one-liners, but even with this explanation (which is not very flattering either!), its an icky thing for me to say. I'm sorry.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Oct 2, 2007 16:31:37 GMT -5
(((Bert)))) It's the diet coke of evil!!! You must forgive him! M.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 2, 2007 19:18:30 GMT -5
"According to Cherie's book WI believed in the Trinity and that "everyone can be saved and know it". Why did that doctrine change and when?
G. Pattison stated that one of the reasons WI left the FM was:
"1st, because the leader was alleged to have been a 'hypocrite,' in that while teaching Pilgrims to live by faith he himself had over hundreds of pounds. " So he did not approve of ministers having money, so would in no way approve of the estates being left to the workers today!
Another difference: "The public began to sit up and take notice of the new Evangelists. They did not try to keep it low key and were not keeping their light hidden under a bushel. The preachers often preached open-air in the town squares, paraded around town singing hymns, and held baptisms in fairly public places, which the public came out to view as entertainment. The police often had to restrain riots."
Today it seems that the onus of lost souls is left in the hands of the friends. They are expected to bring them to gospel meeting. It's all low key. When did this change and why?
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 2, 2007 19:37:17 GMT -5
Here's an interesting excerpt:
"UNEXPECTEDLY at the July, 1905, Convention at Crocknacrieve, without consulting with the other workers, Joseph Kerr, who was about 24 years old at the time, altered the course of the Go-Preachers forever. Joe Kerr was "one of the most gifted and talented of the workers got a very prominent place by William Irvine; rather too much so for a novice. He attended a conference, in the Bridge of Allan in Scotland; and he was so disgusted with the way the Clergy preached; that he come to the conclusion that there are no clergymen saved. Without any charitable consideration of the conscience or opinion of others, he preached it at that convention. Irvine defended him, but Edward Cooney opposed him and tried to prove that John Wesley was a born again man. "The unwillingness of Clergymen to conform themselves to the pattern as seen in Jesus is very manifest; and the neglect of faithfulness to their calling and office is to be greatly deplored; and a true and faithful witness who tells them the truth in love is to be admired, but to say that there are none of them born again is not true; and limits the power and grace of God to regenerate whomsoever He will. Then again, regeneration is a thing of the heart and cannot be always measured by external appearance, dress, salary or education. The Salvation of the Soul is by grace through faith to everyone that repents and believes in Christ Jesus; and the experience, testimony and fruits of many clergymen bear witness to the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ. Up to that time they all believed that; nevertheless, Kerr’s New Doctrine introduced somewhat of what seemed to be absurd, and that the honest hearted could not believe without a violation of conscience and which hindered a true witness against error and wrong; and injured their own testimony..." (From: John Long's Journal, July, 1905)".
There's so much to be gleaned from this book Cherie!!
"1907, JULY - JOHN LONG IS EXCOMMUNICATED - John Long was publicly excommunicated at the convention by Wm Irvine because he refused to accept that all clergymen outside the fellowship were unsaved."
"John Long wasn't the only one who did not agree with the new Only Way Concept; that no clergy outside their group were saved; and that no one was saved before they came in contact with Wm Irvine or one of his workers."
"Change and development of doctrine prevails, and doubt in many cases, even in Mr. Edward Cooney’s and Mr. William Irvine’s cases, which have been confessed openly. For example, most of the converts have been made through meetings in wooden halls, tents, and in some cases organs were used. Many people professed to have been saved before meeting the Tramp Preacher. Now, all these things formerly used by the Tramp Preachers are said to be of the devil...Change of doctrine has made things different for many, especially for those who were not originally converts of Mr. Wm. Irvine or Mr. Edward Cooney, because unless you hear or believe through a Tramp Preacher, they say there can be no possibility of spiritual, divine life, past, present, or future. It is immaterial how definite your aspirations or what quickening towards God may have been wrought in your heart or soul previously. So that in other words, derivative or successive christianity is now re-established via William Irvine and Edward Cooney only. This is all the more remarkable and contradictory since William Irvine has a great difficulty to determine his own spiritual Father, and he professedly the great grandfather of all! Some say it was the Rev. John McNeill; some say Wm. Irvine’s sister was the means of spiritual life to him, and some are not very sure but that since Thomas was a doubting apostle, they are contented to be a brother of his, and some do not trouble much as long as they keep near the dinner hour, and do not fall out with headquarters." (Impartial Reporter, July 7, 1910)"
So how could these authors of obvious confusion have been inspired by God to "revive" God's ONLY way??? Why wasn't it "right" from the start?
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