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Post by rational on Oct 3, 2007 11:04:19 GMT -5
my apologies... i had it backwards... history shows that aggressive nations LOSE....and lose BAD. Nations are tough markers. The British Empire did well. Had a continuous sunset. The Romans did well. The Ottoman Empire did well. How do you judge the success of a country? Do you have examples of non-aggressive countries that have done well?
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Post by ranman77007 on Oct 3, 2007 14:15:45 GMT -5
my apologies... i had it backwards... history shows that aggressive nations LOSE....and lose BAD. Nations are tough markers. The British Empire did well. Had a continuous sunset. The Romans did well. The Ottoman Empire did well. How do you judge the success of a country? Do you have examples of non-aggressive countries that have done well? canada....japan...switzerland....australia...france....belgium....china....they all have had their problems, but at the moment are really only aggressive if we are asking them to be.. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2007 14:17:04 GMT -5
Which doctrine do you choose .. the doctrine Samuel was part of, or the doctrine of Christ. He compared his spirit with the old testiment spirit and said "But I say unto you!!"...................... Edgar Matt 5:38-44 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: [39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. [41] And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. [42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. [43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Did you ever experience war? Do you ever see a solder with no regard for any life or boundries drag a little child (she was six) out of someones home and riflebutt them on the ground to death while making their family watch. The reason was to force them to capitualte to communist rule. I did and I am glad that I was there in time to catch the dirty scum and put them out of our misery. Soldiers are taught to do bad things - that is what they are for!! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai
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Post by ranman77007 on Oct 3, 2007 14:26:50 GMT -5
there you have it.... Thou shalt not do what those soldiers did... i'm tellin ya, Thou shalt not kill includes that.
and we werent even getting oil...
thanks edgar
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jubal
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Post by jubal on Oct 3, 2007 15:13:27 GMT -5
Edgar said: ["Which doctrine do you choose .. the doctrine Samuel was part of, or the doctrine of Christ. He compared his spirit with the old testiment spirit and said "But I say unto ]you!!""......................
So is He a God of war or a God of love that says to turn the other cheek? If someone was attacking your family, would you defend them and try to hurt their assailer? Or would you say "I love you, hurt them it is ok, I will pray for you."
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Other Side of the Hill
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Post by Other Side of the Hill on Oct 3, 2007 21:36:28 GMT -5
Did you ever experience war? Do you ever see a solder with no regard for any life or boundaries drag a little child (she was six) out of someones home and rifle-butt them on the ground to death while making their family watch. The reason was to force them to capitulate to communist rule. I did and I am glad that I was there in time to catch the dirty scum and put them out of our misery. Soldiers are taught to do bad things - that is what they are for!! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_LaiNot the norm. Yes there are atrocities. However your example is weak when you consider what happened to the Cambodians after the Americans left VN. Further your argument is weak when you consider the mass extinction of the German Nazis. You did not answer the questions. Did you ever experience war? Do you ever see a solder with no regard for any life or boundaries drag a little child (she was six)out of someones home and rifle-butt them on the ground to death while making their family watch. The reason was to force them to capitulate to communist rule. The example you cited was a result of failure in American training not due to the training. It paled compared to the many atrocities that the VC was doing to their own people. When you realize that almost all armies with the few exceptions of western culture engage in evil ruthless behavior. The willfully use the innocent little children and non-combatants as shields or slaves. Saddam cut up his enemies in tree grinders. His special forces were trained to have no mercy. I did and I am glad that I was there in time to catch the dirty scum and put them out of our misery. When you see first hand how other peace loving freedom fighters do it you might have a different take. But, then again maybe you won't and when the Islamic Fascists come to behead your grandchildren because they will not convert, you will just stand and watch.
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Post by ranman77007 on Oct 4, 2007 2:58:17 GMT -5
Edgar said: ["Which doctrine do you choose .. the doctrine Samuel was part of, or the doctrine of Christ. He compared his spirit with the old testiment spirit and said "But I say unto ]you!!""...................... So is He a God of war or a God of love that says to turn the other cheek? If someone was attacking your family, would you defend them and try to hurt their assailer? Or would you say "I love you, hurt them it is ok, I will pray for you." to be blunt, it lies on us, the people of america, to make sure that our country is not the bully, because as we know, the people rule america... and i don't think most americans deep down really know whether we are even the good guys or bad guys in the war...we have surely killed more than any other nation... its sad, really.... to know that my nation is the worlds leading nation in killing... be strong as a nation, yes. but not punk a s s bullies. because we are gonna lose. our government is not the nation... and it is wayyyyyyyy out of control.... we can't even keep our freedoms here, and we wanna spread freedom in iraq whats up with that ? they need a constitution ? give them ours, because we sure aint using it... its all murder, calculated and thoughtless at the same time....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 3:58:17 GMT -5
Jesus taught the virtues of non-violence -- and loving our enemies -- turning the other cheek -- forgiveness etc. Neither then (2000 years ago) or now do the majority of people believe that his teaching is the best solution in our troubled world. Some do believe it -- some seem to think it is stupid. I stand on the side of the believers!!!
I find it hard to understand folks waving the Christian flag, and openly supporting the greatest killing machine in the history of the world. For one thing it has absolutely no backing in anything in the teaching of Christ .... and for another thing it is obviously completely counter productive. There are by far more innocent people being killed today in the countries occupied by the military than there were before the military went in. Even Sadam Hussien in all his evil didn't manage to kill as many people as die daily in the system of today.
Maybe as hard as it is to understand with our hate prone minds, the policys Jesus taught of non-violence weren't so stupid as some would imply after all!!!
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Evil Solder Killers
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Post by Evil Solder Killers on Oct 4, 2007 14:45:20 GMT -5
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Post by On the hill on Oct 4, 2007 15:22:42 GMT -5
Not the norm. Yes there are atrocities. It is clear you have never been on the battlefield. War is one long atrocity. However your example is weak when you consider what happened to the Cambodians after the Americans left VN.And your response is meaningless when you consider what the US troops did to the civilians in VN.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2007 17:18:05 GMT -5
Joseph with God's blessing and assistance rose up to become the Commander in Chief of the Egyptian armed forces.
One of the first Gentile Christians, who was used as an example by God to show that salvation was now open to the Gentiles, was in fact another Master of War, Cornelius the Centurion, who had 100 men under him. He was an officer of an occupying force in a foreign land, whose fellow soldiers were responsible for putting Jesus on the Cross.
If Cornelius was ordered to go to war with an enemy, or to suppress a Jewish uprising, etc, he would have had no option but to prosecute these orders. I find it amazing that God sometimes chose men of war to make his peace with.
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Post by Not Quite on Oct 4, 2007 22:14:03 GMT -5
Not the norm. Yes there are atrocities. It is clear you have never been on the battlefield. War is one long atrocity. However your example is weak when you consider what happened to the Cambodians after the Americans left VN.And your response is meaningless when you consider what the US troops did to the civilians in VN. No it is clear that you do not know a thing about it. Yes please tell me what America did to VN? You claim to be some kind of expert. Playing games with words. The Germans Nazis committed mass extinction of Jews, Polish, There own German Citizens, and many more in the death camps. Some call it genocide. I never had time to take pictures as I was to busy shooting for my life. VC forced kids of 12 years old and sometime younger to be sucide bombers (forced zappers) or get shot in back. VC butchered young ones in villages to force the villages heads to hide them, weapons and force them to get more food for them. If you really know your history the crusades were a result of the Isalmic conquests. More then once history. PAYBACK. Their conquest was by the sword. You do not know your history very well. Can you tell me how many how many people were killed in South VN after the communists took over? Can you tell me how many Cambodians were killed also? Can you tell my what the Sino-Vietnam war way about? and why it happened? Yes you are right on only one thing. The Americans did not return full force when North Vietnam violated the Paris Peace Accords when they started the NVA Eastertide Offensive. In this North Vietnam agreed to drop their demands for a coalition Government in the South. The North agreed to a cease fire and also agreed that reunification would be carried out in step-by-step with peacefull means. The north broke this agreement as soon as we put the ceasefire in order. When they came down they killed and killed and killed. Did you take pictures of that? Yea tell me about all your pictures.
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Anothers perspective
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Post by Anothers perspective on Oct 5, 2007 2:58:52 GMT -5
Upon registering for the draft decades ago, my own conviction was that if I lived by the sword, I had every reason to expect to die by the sword. As a result of that conviction, I requested a conscientious objector status.
After much hassle by the draft board, and a thorough FBI investigation of my young life, I was determined not to be a subversive, and granted such status. When I got drafted (the letter began thusly: "Greetings from the President! Your friends and neighbors have selected you...") I served without training to kill my fellow man upon orders of another.
After induction into the Army, I eventually became an unarmed but otherwise fully trained combat medic. Quickly assigned as aide to ranks of Col. and above as "cover" and forbidden by oath (as were many others) to relate my experiences in early "black ops," for a while I was assigned as a medical adviser to a Da Nang ARVN Bn. In addition to giving medical training to a growing and new ARVN medical corp, duties included reporting back to "handlers" on the effectiveness of Q-A and the number of "hostile" engagements that Battalion had with insurgents.
Arriving in early 1963 for TDY with that unit about 25 clicks south and west of Da Nang along the Del Sol River, it was still frequent ARVN practice to shoot their own wounded. That society believed in reincarnation, and as I understood, held to the beliefs that souls "killed" were re-incarnated more quickly. That such death for them, (and their wives and children) was preferable to that of being taken prisoner, seriously injured, and in the case of their dependents being widowed or orphaned.
Now US Servicemen were not there as missionaries, NOR were all as combatants at that time. The USA had only 7000 soldiers "In Country" then. A promise (as told anyway) had been given that if such advisory capacities failed, all troops "In Country" would be home by thanksgiving of 1963. Diem, (et al,) were assassinated. Kennedy was also (I remember listening to many ranking Army officers speculating that Kennedy's death could be associated with, or attributed to Diem's.)
The rest is known to everyone. I know I never carried a weapon, and sought to teach sound medical practices (Drs would not volunteer for such duty!) to a new and previously untrained ARVN (Army of the Republic of Viet Nam) medical corp . among that Battalion of men.
Personally, I find some of the generalizations made to these threads about the Army and soldiers to be quite offensive. Indeed as offensive as those who spit in faces and on uniforms in May of 1963 after my TDY was completed and I had to return in dress uniform. That type of treatment was repulsive then, and it remains so to me to this very day.
While I chose not to train to "kill" (not "murder") my fellow mankind upon the orders of another, and trusted ONLY my God for leading in such matters, those who believed otherwise, and bore arms should NOT be condemned as some so cowardly have done here. Shame on you, who have done so, thinking yourselves so superior, when you are not.
Should there be "policemen" in a country? Of course. Should they be condemned for being those policemen? I don't think so. Should there be "policemen" on an international level? Pity anyone who thinks so and is willing to so serve, if one is to go by the comments some are making to this thread. Yes, I have taken an oath to uphold laws, always preferring to enforce them by public education rather than at the end of a gun.
Sadly, there are those who believe "pacifism" is always the answer. Interestingly to me, my LORD said HIS Kingdom was not of this world, ELSE would HIS servants fight. Do I believe "HIS Kingdom" should be defended by violence? Absolutely not. Do I believe it necessary on occasions for violence to end violence in this world among people and nations? Yes, I do. Have I, or would I chose to be one who has trained to kill upon the command of others? Absolutely not.
Would I kill (not "murder") another if I felt I was led to do so in defense of another (or others) by my God who I worship above all else? Yes, I certainly would. Have I learned to defend myself (and others) by martial arts? Yes, I have, and that once included knowing HOW to kill (not "murder") with bare hands. In fact, as I grow old now, likely I am even more dangerous than I was when I knew how to "pull" such blows short of impacting death upon any orignating perpetrator of such violence upon others.
Once, when I was in the work as a younger companion to Hugo Johnson in northern Sweden, I was assaulted by two Finns with knives on a street of Östersund. They had no other idea than to knife and rob. When I left them, I did not inquire as to the state of their health, but both appeared to be suffering dreadfully as they lay on the ground. I did tell them in English as I left them lay there with their knives on the sidewalk: "Never try such a thing against an American!"
Those of you who wish to judge me as "unchristian," just go right ahead. I am not in life to get your approval anyway. I still wear my 82nd Airborne insignia cap together with my US Coast Guard insignia. Through it all (some 12 plus years of US Military and Para-military service) I have never taken one life, and saved many lives, always at risk to my own, and the latter decade while partially disabled.
The UN Peace Keeping troops now find some places in the world just too dangerous to "police." Why? Because too few people will now stand up to violent people, thinking that it is dishonorable. Personally, I perceive those who think in such a manner are really the ones with little honor.
Once it was widely considered honorable to "walk softly and carry a big stick." Now there are those who think carrying a 'big stick" and being ready to use it should be "banned." To me, such a mindset is naive, foolish, and even a little bit "humorous" ...how is such "banning" going to be enforced?
Sincerely,
Dennis Jacobsen
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