Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Posts: 486
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Post by Nichole M on Aug 20, 2006 22:03:06 GMT -5
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands.[/i]
One of the things that the workers use to show that ALL other religions are wrong is that these so called "worldly churches" have church buildings (as they are made with hands). And they - the workers do not - Meeting in homes is emphasized. Workers claim not to have church buildings.
It is our body that is the temple of God. This is true!!
It is convention time now (at least here in the Pacific Northwest). Many of the friends will be on their way to spend 4 days at one or more of these conventions. They will sit in a "barn" or a "tent" that was built with hands. The barn or tent is only used for convention. (At the Boring, OR Convention the "Barn" was specifically built for convention meetings) The barns are not used for any "barn" activity the rest of the year. They are simply used to store the rest of the convention stuff (Benches, Portable buildings etc) There are also Kitchens - (with all the equipment needed to feed a thousand or so people) There are dining rooms at these conventions - both sit down style and cafeteria style. Then of course there are the restroom facilities. And then the sleeping barns/tents. All of these buildings or tents are paid for with money given to the workers by the friends. and they are all used only 1 time a year - To hold church meetings. Yes these are built on someone's private property - (Hmmmmm - that person has to pay the property tax on ALL of these buildings) The buildings and there upkeep are paid for and constructed by the the congregation - (the saints - the friends)
Mainstream Christians also believe that Jesus dwells in us and not in a building.
A Church building has a worship center/sanctuary - (equivalent to the barn at convention) They have a Kitchen, banquet room (the dining room) and restrooms. They do not have sleeping quarters - otherwise church buildings are the same as all the different buildings on a convention ground.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Where we worship does not matter - It isn't what makes us right or wrong - Worshiping in a home - A tent, a barn, A church building.......We must worship Him in Spirit and Truth......That is what matters.
Nichole
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2006 22:38:23 GMT -5
While still attending meetings this topic was not one of my concerns. I accepted the workers view as fact and never gave it much thought. I was more troubled by the idea of being exclusive and the Trinity.
Looking back now I'm surprised I never took issue with this point while still attending. It is now so clear to me that the 'evil church buildings' idea was of man and not God. Seems the Holy Spirit did not choose to use this point in helping to show me the truth about the truth.
How did this ever become one of the mandates required for salvation in the 'only true way'?
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Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Posts: 486
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Post by Nichole M on Aug 20, 2006 22:56:33 GMT -5
While still attending meetings this topic was not one of my concerns. I accepted the workers view as fact and never gave it much thought. I was more troubled by the idea of being exclusive and the Trinity. Looking back now I'm surprised I never took issue with this point while still attending. It is now so clear to me that the 'evil church buildings' idea was of man and not God. Seems the Holy Spirit did not choose to use this point in helping to show me the truth about the truth. How did this ever become one of the mandates required for salvation in the 'only true way'? While I was still attending meetings this wasn't an issue for me either. Like you say "I just took the workers word for it" But since leaving and studying God's word for myself it became clear to me that they are church buildings. Of course in the 2x2's I was taught that this was how it always was.....but then reading John Longs Journal it opened my eyes to the true beginnings.....I'd have to go back through it so see if this was one of the initial points made. Nichole
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Post by a believer on Aug 20, 2006 23:34:29 GMT -5
I have never heard anyone says that God dwells in a church builidng, It is the workers who wrongly presume that people think He does.
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Post by selah on Aug 21, 2006 0:21:11 GMT -5
I have been outside of the f&w fellowship for 26 years and have attended many different churches. I've yet to find one single person who doesn't understand that God dwells within His people.
I have heard people call the church building "the house of God", as in "Come into the house of God to worship". Their intent with this figure of speech is not to negate the truth that they fully understand...that God dwells in His people.
It's just that the building is the most common place where we come together corporately to worship and honor our God...thus the term...house of God.
I was actually VERY surprised to find that what the workers had emphatically taught me about this was NOT true at all.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by studylearning on Aug 21, 2006 9:50:32 GMT -5
Well then here we go again. I might add that all the anonymous posters who (in my opinion) post all the nonsense to detract from sound discussion have come to no end. They cannot avoid the issues. Yes as we draw near to convention time I see the convention grounds have added at a minimum of $150000 of new construction to it in two new buildings. Humm, there is a little church down the road which is not much bigger then a house except it does have a steeple on it. Is the yin/yang or what ;D The rejections of other churches due to financial administration and formalized worship are totally subjective. It is assumed by the F&W that because other Churches collect money and have formalized worship that they must be false. Never mind that the F&W also have formalized worship and financial administration also. That doesn’t count. They assume that the Holy Spirit is not in those churches yet we know as certain that " where ever two or more are gathered in His name so shall He be there".As stated The Church is the Living Stones in God’s Holy Temple nit together and empowered and led by Jesus Christ as the Head. It is the Body of Christ. It is the Family of God. It is God’s Holy Temple. If we are to accept God in the fullest we must believe that the Holy Spirit is also in those other churches. Yes they may not be like yours or mine. Never the less people are drawn together for His Name sake to those places. Hence He will be there and so also do his will. It is 100% pure fallacy to state that they are all just after money and that they worship the building more then God. The F&W use the following to imply that those buildings are not what God wanted. Yes that is true. God wants the people in them to have their hearts as a called out people in fellowship with HIM and nit together and empowered and led by Jesus Christ as the Head. The building is just a place of gathering just like the little house. Acts 17 24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25: Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26: And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;Acts 7 Do these verses make the house any the less a form of a man made place. I submit no. The household fellowship may be just as much as a detriment to complete spiritual growth and any large church. In many ways a more subtle determent then the large church in that it happens without you even knowing it. Let me back up to Acts 7.
Do you remember this about Stephen’s Sermon?
48: Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49: Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50: Hath not my hand made all these things?
In this accounting of Stephen’s wonderful work he was bringing to remembrance at the Sanhedrin just what Israel history was with the rejection of God. He was telling them that even though they had a Temple and a Tabernacle they still rejected God. He was teaching them that the presence of the Temple did nothing for their fellowship with God. The Israel people in time of reference; Believed that because they did have this Temple and Tabernacle of God, that God would always be there for them no matter what. You see it was the emphasis on the Temple and not God that was the error.The F&W make this very accusation about these other churches. However, in placing so much emphasis on the Household fellowship they (The F&W) themselves have put the form above God also. Please remember that the Church is not material. It is Spiritual. So when one places so much emphasis on – (Oh we have meetings in the home and that is the right way) it is not much different then saying “We Have a Temple so God is here and only here”To accuse other churches of being false strictly because they have an open administration of finances is in error. If the open administration of finances is not ill gotten (by defraud) and that church is sincere in their duties to Worship God then they are not in error. There is no reason to say people in that church for this reason cannot be saved. To accuse other churches of being false strictly because they have an organized structure different then the F&W is in error. That organized structure is not in conflict with the early churches even if they are not in a home. There is no reason to say people in that church for this reason cannot find salvation. To accuse other churches of being false because they have a large building is in error. The form and fit of any structure may be a hindrance to proper spiritual growth. The denomonational structures are only a gathering place for the Church Body to have common fellowship in Christ. Any Church structure is only as good as the Souls which fellowship there. . It is the Body of Christ. It is the Family of God. It is God’s Holy Temple.There is no justification to judge anyone else that they in fact are unsaved or do not have a chance of salvation just because they worship in a different structure. When you go to convention do you look upon your huge pole barn of $70000 and say I am thankful that we don't have church structures like others? We must be right.
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Post by studylearning on Aug 21, 2006 13:11:07 GMT -5
bump
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Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Posts: 486
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Post by Nichole M on Aug 21, 2006 16:37:00 GMT -5
I have been outside of the f&w fellowship for 26 years and have attended many different churches. I've yet to find one single person who doesn't understand that God dwells within His people. I have heard people call the church building "the house of God", as in "Come into the house of God to worship". Their intent with this figure of speech is not to negate the truth that they fully understand...that God dwells in His people. It's just that the building is the most common place where we come together corporately to worship and honor our God...thus the term...house of God. I was actually VERY surprised to find that what the workers had emphatically taught me about this was NOT true at all. Blessings, Linda When someone leave the 2x2's - but still loves God - One of the hardest thing for them to do is go to another church. One of the reasons for this is because of what was taught by the workers so emphatically about church buildings being false. I was fortunate to meet people who had left the 2x2's many years ago and have for years been attending a church. I went with them and it helped. Not sure if I would have been able to get over the "Church Building" fear so soon otherwise. Linda, I wonder how you were able to go to another church after you left? would you mind sharing? Nichole
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Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Posts: 486
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Post by Nichole M on Aug 21, 2006 16:47:32 GMT -5
Well then here we go again. I might add that all the anonymous posters who (in my opinion) post all the nonsense to detract from sound discussion have come to no end. They cannot avoid the issues. Yes as we draw near to convention time I see the convention grounds have added at a minimum of $150000 of new construction to it in two new buildings. Humm, there is a little church down the road which is not much bigger then a house except it does have a steeple on it. Is the yin/yang or what ;D The rejections of other churches due to financial administration and formalized worship are totally subjective. It is assumed by the F&W that because other Churches collect money and have formalized worship that they must be false. Never mind that the F&W also have formalized worship and financial administration also. That doesn’t count. They assume that the Holy Spirit is not in those churches yet we know as certain that " where ever two or more are gathered in His name so shall He be there".As stated The Church is the Living Stones in God’s Holy Temple nit together and empowered and led by Jesus Christ as the Head. It is the Body of Christ. It is the Family of God. It is God’s Holy Temple. If we are to accept God in the fullest we must believe that the Holy Spirit is also in those other churches. Yes they may not be like yours or mine. Never the less people are drawn together for His Name sake to those places. Hence He will be there and so also do his will. It is 100% pure fallacy to state that they are all just after money and that they worship the building more then God. The F&W use the following to imply that those buildings are not what God wanted. Yes that is true. God wants the people in them to have their hearts as a called out people in fellowship with HIM and nit together and empowered and led by Jesus Christ as the Head. The building is just a place of gathering just like the little house. Acts 17 24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25: Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26: And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;Acts 7 Do these verses make the house any the less a form of a man made place. I submit no. The household fellowship may be just as much as a detriment to complete spiritual growth and any large church. In many ways a more subtle determent then the large church in that it happens without you even knowing it. Let me back up to Acts 7.
Do you remember this about Stephen’s Sermon?
48: Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49: Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50: Hath not my hand made all these things?
In this accounting of Stephen’s wonderful work he was bringing to remembrance at the Sanhedrin just what Israel history was with the rejection of God. He was telling them that even though they had a Temple and a Tabernacle they still rejected God. He was teaching them that the presence of the Temple did nothing for their fellowship with God. The Israel people in time of reference; Believed that because they did have this Temple and Tabernacle of God, that God would always be there for them no matter what. You see it was the emphasis on the Temple and not God that was the error.The F&W make this very accusation about these other churches. However, in placing so much emphasis on the Household fellowship they (The F&W) themselves have put the form above God also. Please remember that the Church is not material. It is Spiritual. So when one places so much emphasis on – (Oh we have meetings in the home and that is the right way) it is not much different then saying “We Have a Temple so God is here and only here”To accuse other churches of being false strictly because they have an open administration of finances is in error. If the open administration of finances is not ill gotten (by defraud) and that church is sincere in their duties to Worship God then they are not in error. There is no reason to say people in that church for this reason cannot be saved. To accuse other churches of being false strictly because they have an organized structure different then the F&W is in error. That organized structure is not in conflict with the early churches even if they are not in a home. There is no reason to say people in that church for this reason cannot find salvation. To accuse other churches of being false because they have a large building is in error. The form and fit of any structure may be a hindrance to proper spiritual growth. The denomonational structures are only a gathering place for the Church Body to have common fellowship in Christ. Any Church structure is only as good as the Souls which fellowship there. . It is the Body of Christ. It is the Family of God. It is God’s Holy Temple.There is no justification to judge anyone else that they in fact are unsaved or do not have a chance of salvation just because they worship in a different structure. When you go to convention do you look upon your huge pole barn of $70000 and say I am thankful that we don't have church structures like others? We must be right. Study Learning, I hadn't thought of this perspective. But is is placing the emphasis on the building. Thanks for this thought!!! Now I can't stand that they claim not to have church buildings when they do. I think that they are just used to barns and tents and whatnot that they have at convention and since it doesn't look like a typical church building then it isn't (in their eyes). When in fact they are. But your point on the emphesis being "in the home" (all year long) does take away from God and place the emphesis on something man made. Nichole
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Post by selah on Aug 21, 2006 17:38:12 GMT -5
Hi Nicole,
Fortunately for me I had established some close bonds with other believers in a home bible study outside of the f&w. These were my support group, and they prayed me through every milestone. These ladies were from several different denominations and had no background in the f&w. I'm so thankful for their compassion, patience and love. Amazing!
I tried a few different places, but finally settled at a Pentecostal church since I had experienced the baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and that denomination was the most open to that experience at the time. I finally settled there about 7 months after I stopped going to meetings.
The transition was not easy and it took some time, but God was with me, and that's what mattered.
I remember at Christmas time, I literally ran from the church when I saw a Christmas tree in the foyer. When I went to my first church camp meeting (I drove 45 minutes to go), I left crying just 10 minutes into the sermon, because the speaker was too loud. (I still don't like that...but it doesn't scare me away anymore)
People understood. Everyone was kind. I was loved. God knew. I was okay...and praise God, today I'm enjoying life in Him more than I ever dreamed possible. And I feel comfortable fellowshipping with believers from many different denominations. I sometimes visit other churches just to connect with a wide variety of brothers and sisters in Him.
Sometimes I spend a period of time just with God too. It's just so wonderful to be free to go wherever the Spirit leads.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by you need on Aug 21, 2006 18:28:51 GMT -5
Hi Nicole, Fortunately for me I had established some close bonds with other believers in a home bible study outside of the f&w. These were my support group, and they prayed me through every milestone. These ladies were from several different denominations and had no background in the f&w. I'm so thankful for their compassion, patience and love. Amazing! I tried a few different places, but finally settled at a Pentecostal church since I had experienced the baptism or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and that denomination was the most open to that experience at the time. I finally settled there about 7 months after I stopped going to meetings. The transition was not easy and it took some time, but God was with me, and that's what mattered. I remember at Christmas time, I literally ran from the church when I saw a Christmas tree in the foyer. When I went to my first church camp meeting (I drove 45 minutes to go), I left crying just 10 minutes into the sermon, because the speaker was too loud. (I still don't like that...but it doesn't scare me away anymore) People understood. Everyone was kind. I was loved. God knew. I was okay...and praise God, today I'm enjoying life in Him more than I ever dreamed possible. And I feel comfortable fellowshipping with believers from many different denominations. I sometimes visit other churches just to connect with a wide variety of brothers and sisters in Him. Sometimes I spend a period of time just with God too. It's just so wonderful to be free to go wherever the Spirit leads. Blessings, Linda linda, go back to meetings.
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Post by Brick on Aug 21, 2006 18:34:23 GMT -5
Yeh, well, whatever. I enjoyed the conventions this year in meeting sheds. Whatever the party line is.
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Post by selah on Aug 21, 2006 18:40:53 GMT -5
And I will....should the Spirit lead me.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by prayhard on Aug 22, 2006 21:15:35 GMT -5
Linda,
You are so awesome. I think you are a true gem on this board. There are many folks who totally disregard and disrespect others here. I am sorry someone was so callous in their remarks to you.
I praise God that you came out of this cult - which IS what it is. You will be used in great ways by God to help others in the same situation you were in - a man-made doctrine led by self-righteous and greatly mislead followers.
Regarding the question of buildings:
Someone designed the doctrine and got others to believe it.
Ignorance propagated ignorance as it is much more easy to be spoon-fed beliefs than to study, grow and learn on your own.
This is how brainwashing acclaims success...
William Irvine was the propagator and his followers carried on well for him.
Your person is the dwelling place for the Lord and you can make anywhere "a house of God."
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Post by prayhard on Aug 22, 2006 21:24:52 GMT -5
*spoon-fed beliefs*
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Post by goodness gracious on Aug 22, 2006 21:26:11 GMT -5
spoon fed beliefs
(sheesh)
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Post by prayhard on Aug 22, 2006 21:28:22 GMT -5
haha. This is ridiculous..... s p o o n
f e d
b e l i e f s
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Post by selah on Aug 22, 2006 21:59:22 GMT -5
Thanks prayhard....what a jewel you are! And praise God for His mercy and grace. What an amazing God we serve. Our God is an awesome God He reigns from heaven above With wisdom, power and love Our God is an awesome God He brings it all around in His own beautiful way. Blessings, Linda
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Post by guesty on Aug 22, 2006 22:44:56 GMT -5
The point is still that God does not dwell in barns. He may dwell in the people in the barn but not the barn itself. No people in the barn, no God in the barn. Some worldly religions DO present that God dwells in their building, chapel, temple etc. whether or not any person is in the building.
God does not dwell in buildings made from men unless it is through his dwelling in the person or people in the building. And then it doesn't matter what the building is. The building is totally irrelevant. Gospel meeting used to be held (maybe still is) in Portland, OR in an Episcopalian church. Beautiful old building but no more relevant or irrelavant than a barn. It's the people not the buildings.
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Post by selah on Aug 22, 2006 23:01:41 GMT -5
They do? I don't know of any that believe this. Which ones?
(I'm seriously wondering, since I've never found one that believes this yet...and I've been to quite a few.)
Blessings, Linda
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Post by scottishviking on Aug 23, 2006 7:11:43 GMT -5
i have heard of services of consecration being held for new, or repaired, buildings; does this imply the attending people belive god to dwell in the building ?
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Post by selah on Aug 23, 2006 9:07:23 GMT -5
I too have heard of dedications or consecration services to commit the building to the work of the Lord. It isn't about His living there, but about honoring Him in it.
Blessings, Linda
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2006 9:16:19 GMT -5
Generally, consecration services declare the intention to set apart a building, person, plot of land, what have you, to service for the Lord.
Karl
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Post by scottishviking on Aug 23, 2006 9:19:06 GMT -5
would you like to elaborate on that Linda ? surely if a service is used to commit a building to the work of the lord, there is an implication that he was not present before the service ? perhaps its most noticeable in the dedication services held when a building is redecorated / repaired; there is an implication that god was present, moved out during builiding work, then moved back in at the service which seems odd to me if he is present within the people ?
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Post by selah on Aug 23, 2006 19:00:09 GMT -5
Maybe the whole idea came from the dedication of the temple in the O.T. After it had been used for honoring false gods and to corrupt everything God's people stood for, they re-dedicated it. Perhaps that's the origin of our present day practice of dedicating our church buildings??
We recently re-built our platform at our church. During the Sunday service we dedicated it to the Lord. No one believed God had vacated during the building process. No on believed that God was going to dwell on the platform because we dedicated it to Him.
We dedicated our labor, time, efforts and materials to Him to honor Him. We dedicated the finished product to Him, to be used by Him and for Him. We want to dedicate everything we have and are to the living God in gratitude for all He has given to us and all He has made us.
I don't know ANYONE who thinks our platform is anything but wood, nails and carpet. But we want to set it apart from other platforms, specifically for His purposes.
In the bible children were dedicated...even Jesus. This is a rite in which we publicly declare our desire to raise our child in the ways of the Lord. We give that child back to God to demonstrate our absolute dependence on Him to give us wisdom for godly parenting.
It's all about bringing honor to Him.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by guesty on Aug 23, 2006 22:50:48 GMT -5
God in buildings....Catholicism, Church of England, Judaism. There are many more chuches than the evangelical Christian type so prevelent in our society.
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Post by selah on Aug 23, 2006 23:34:30 GMT -5
I have visited a couple of Anglican (Church of England) churches (I am also personal friends with a reverend and a bishop with whom I sometimes gather for prayer) and I've participated in the Alpha Course which has its roots in the Church of England ...and these have not believed that God lives in the church building. They do believe that the church building is a house where the church meets, and the church is the people and the people are the dwelling place of God. Obviously I've missed the ones you visited. I'm only stating my own experience.
I have visited just one Catholic church that I remember, and this particular one seems to teach the same way, that God indwells the people. I am also friends with and sometimes meet for prayer with one of the deacons from this church.
Judaism has in the past sought to house God...in the ark of the covenant..in the temple...in the holy of holies. Perhaps there is still a tendancy to think that way...I'm not sure about this one. I have visited a synagogue though, and I never thought to ask that question. Next time I will.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Another Guest on Aug 23, 2006 23:58:11 GMT -5
What exactly does it mean to worship "in spirit and in truth"?
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