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Post by selah on Sept 27, 2007 15:13:56 GMT -5
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Post by johngo4th on Sept 27, 2007 15:29:50 GMT -5
Thanks,
I saw it. Looks like some sort or performance art. I can't seem to figure out what it's about though. Apparently a pretty big church. Could you share a little about what this performance is about?
Best Regards,
John Goforth
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Post by ex-teenager on Sept 27, 2007 15:44:50 GMT -5
Your right about it being powerful!! I take from it that the pains of life, and the influences, tried to steal this girls life, but in the end this girl had her shield, the guy in robes! Who in the end saves her!
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Post by selah on Sept 27, 2007 18:39:11 GMT -5
There are other examples of the same skit on the same UTUBE page.
I believe the man in robes (in other examples he's not wearing robes, if some find that offensive) represents God, and the girl represents mankind or me or you. It was powerful for me to put myself in that girl's position.
In the beginning God created man...depicted in the actions of the guy in robes. He blows life breath into the girl and then demonstrates that man is made in His image by moving in sinc together. God had a beautiful relationship with man. There is the impression that God created so much for man. There was great joy, and together He and man shared in the beauty and abundance of creation.
Then along came Satan who enticed man and as he fell into sin, there was a separation from God, the one who loves him.
Then man tries to fill the void with various vices ...the love of money, indulgence in drinking, hiding behind outward images and indulging in lust, and finally in his anguish man is haunted by thoughts of suicide.
God has been trying to get man's attention, but man is so distracted by these other things that he hardly even knows he is separated from God.
Just at the lowest point, man realizes his condition and makes desperate attempts to return to God. God is drawing man to Himself. Man keeps trying, but there is so much to overcome.
Finally God, the champion and Savior of man, steps in and holds man's enemies at bay. Man feels liberated, safe, set free! With the enemies defeated, God and man celebrate the victory together..rejoicing in each other. God cleans man up and showers His love on him. Man is restored to a right relationship with his God.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by gloryintruth on Sept 28, 2007 7:58:38 GMT -5
Dear Selah,
Thanks for posting this link to the video. I watched it more as a cultural experience than with an eye to the theology being taught - to answer the question as to what sorts of things happen in some modern churches. I have to admit (respectfully, of course) that I watched with fascinated horror. This does not appeal to me as worship, but rather as entertainment. There were even some squeals and whistles at the very outset, as one might find at a football match.
I think we can all agree that it is certainly light years removed from worship as one experiences it in the Church.
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Post by et tu GIT on Sept 28, 2007 8:34:12 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that it is certainly light years removed from worship as one experiences it in the Church. Generalizing again, GIT?
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Post by gloryintruth on Sept 28, 2007 18:12:41 GMT -5
Generalizing again, GIT?
The morons with which one is surrounded!
I almost feel like tearing my hair out - it's like talking to the permanently infantile whose chief mission in life is to take potshots over the barricades at the evil cultists. It doesn't seem matter what comments I make - even the patently obvious ones - there always seems to be the voice of dissent floating up from out of the yawning chasm.
Did you even bother to check out the clip on Youtube? Probably not. As denser material floats on liquid, so is it easier to skim the surface of prejudice than submerge oneself in discoving the facts.
The next time you see the Friends cram-packed into an enormous amphitheatre, with modern crooners and dramatic actors performing interpretive dance, and coloured lighting hanging from the ceiling and an array of band equipment, you just let me know, O.K.?
Until then, I think it is safe to conclude that our forms of worship are indeed, light years from what is evinced in the video.
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Post by agreed on Sept 28, 2007 20:51:14 GMT -5
The morons with which one is surrounded! Personal ad hominem attacking again, GIT?
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Post by at least on Sept 28, 2007 21:47:38 GMT -5
The morons with which one is surrounded! Then you're right in your element.
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Post by selah on Sept 28, 2007 23:31:06 GMT -5
Hi GIT, I appreciate your effort to communicate with respect to me, and I'd like to do the same. Please see my questions that way, but with the hope of provoking more thought on this subject. It is not really worship or entertainment...although some might find it entertaining....or horrifying. It is more a type of evangelism, or perhaps it has the intent to help believers truly recognize what God has done for them. It's an example of visual language or visual communication. It's a known fact that some people absorb more from a visual learning experience than they do from an audible one. That's the purpose for these dramas and human videos. The intent is to "get the message through," and it's quite effective. Yes. Sometimes I wonder how God feels when he sees such adulation at a sporting event. Does He wonder why people have so much more enthusiasm for a GOAL than they do for Him, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords..the Amazing Creator of the Universe? The shouts and whistles at the beginning were most likely given as offerings of praise to God as the man representing Him came on stage. Near the end they were likely a celebrated response to God's victory over our enemies! In your church, yes. In others, no...I've experienced this often. Who decided to tone worship down so much anyway? I see evidence in the O.T. and the N.T. of loud and exciting worship. When was it required to change? And why is it brought back again in heaven? When I look at those around the throne in Revelation (see verses at the end), I have to wonder if it will be difficult for some to adjust to the new atmosphere of worship in heaven. Some of us are getting started here and now, GIT, that's all. Remember the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The dimension of the Spirit is available to us NOW, because of what Christ did to restore us to relationship with Father. Psalm 81:1-2 1 Sing for joy to God our strength; shout aloud to the God of Jacob! 2 Begin the music, strike the tambourine, play the melodious harp and lyre. Psalm 149:3 3 Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp. Psalm 150:4 4 praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute, Psalm 100:1 1 Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth. Psalm 134:2Lift up your hands in the sanctuary and praise the LORD. Psalm 150 1 Praise the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.
6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD.
Matthew 21:9
9The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest!"
Matthew 21:15
15But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they were indignant.
Revelation 19:1
After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
Revelation 19:5-7
5Then a voice came from the throne, saying: "Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both small and great!"
6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by gloryintruth on Sept 29, 2007 2:47:12 GMT -5
Dear Linda, I went back and watched most of the clip last night. I watched it several times over as it was loading (I only have dial-up, even though I keep promising myself I'll get broadband one of these days). I've got to say that the actors did a fantastic job; and they certainly portrayed a very profound message. Indeed, when "sin" and "Satan" entered the show, it was quite horrific. It is not really worship or entertainment...although some might find it entertaining....or horrifying. It is more a type of evangelism, or perhaps it has the intent to help believers truly recognize what God has done for them.It is quite a foreign concept to me! Ony of my concerns, however, was the portrayal of God doing all sorts of things for "man". He created the fruit tree and handed her a juicy morsel, he created the birds and set them winging into the sky for her amazement and so on. I would suggest that the Bible teaches God made all things for his own glory and pleasure, and not for man's. Moreover, I'm not sure God's love is so unconditional, or that God would be in so much distress over losing his creation. For if we hold to the Doctrine of Predestination, God planned the Fall. And it is difficult to recconcile this to passages, such as Moses' Psalm: " God is angry with us all the days of our lives". Like Luther, I have always sought "a God whom I can love, a God who loves me", but despite my convinction of the truth of Christianity and the Bible and the Apostles and Prophets, and my confidence in the Fellowship as the true Church, I do sometimes wonder if I have ever found Him. I guess I am reluctant to believe in a God so loving, in case God is not like that at all, and if perhaps I have been destined to Hell then I shall have but a false hope. I do frequently believe that I will never be saved, though I have sought salvation with tears all the days of my life. It's an example of visual language or visual communication. It's a known fact that some people absorb more from a visual learning experience than they do from an audible one. That's the purpose for these dramas and human videos. The intent is to "get the message through" and it's quite effective.You're right. It is very effective. Thanks for explaining this to me. I think I understand now. I still wouldn't like to see such a thing performed on a Sunday morning. Yes. Sometimes I wonder how God feels when he sees such adulation at a sporting event. This could be the subject of a discussion - does God have feelings? I tend to view him as impassive and without passion. The shouts and whistles at the beginning were most likely given as offerings of praise to God as the man representing Him came on stage. Near the end they were likely a celebrated response to God's victory over our enemies!Again, Linda, thanks for explaining this. I would never have guessed! Again, I'm not sure I really like the idea of being loud and rumbunctious in God's presence, but at least I understand the perspective now. In your church, yes. In others, no...I've experienced this often. Who decided to tone worship down so much anyway? I see evidence in the O.T. and the N.T. of loud and exciting worship. When was it required to change? And why is it brought back again in heaven? I couldn't do loud and exciting! Have mercy on those of us who need the quiet, Linda! ;D Thanks for taking the time to reply. Peace be unto you.
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Post by selah on Sept 29, 2007 8:18:26 GMT -5
Hi GIT...I'm just on my way out, so I can't respond the way I'd like to right now, but ..... Absolutely! It's not even about mercy, GIT. People worship in different ways, and I believe God receives our love whether we sing, shout or whisper...whether we stand in reverence, kneel in humility or dance in the joy of His love. He sees what's in the heart! For myself, I love quiet reverent worship as well as the more boisterous variety! Blessings, Linda
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Post by the reality on Sept 29, 2007 13:46:40 GMT -5
Leave it to GIT to nitpick a performance that glorifies the real truth.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Sept 29, 2007 14:57:58 GMT -5
The youth group my kids attend do skits all the time. Its a great way to get kids to understand the scripture! Its like Jesus speaking in parables... making it easier to understand.
I remember one scene my daughter participated in was about Jesus being our connection to God. Younger kids have a hard time understanding that concept. Anyway, they had two mountains, one small one that represented "us" and the big mountain that represented "God". Then they placed a ladder (Jesus) across the top connecting the two. They had all the kids climb onto the ladder and go over to the other mountain. They first had to accept that they could trust the ladder and believed that it would take them to God. It was precious to see all the little ones going across the ladder. It was simple but they understood.
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Post by explanation on Sept 29, 2007 15:11:14 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that it is certainly light years removed from worship as one experiences it in the Church. Generalizing again, GIT? If you read GIT's comment from the way GIT looks at it, his comment makes perfect sense. You see, "the Church" according to GIT, is 2x2ism and nothing else. All other churces are not "the Church" in GIT's mind. You have to remember that GIT refers to 2x2ism as the "one true church" so it would stand to reason that when he says "the Church" he is not including your church in his narrow-minded definition.
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Post by selah on Sept 30, 2007 1:14:18 GMT -5
Perhaps this part of the drama was an enactment of Genesis 1:28-29: 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so. Where is that quote, GIT...I need to read it in context. You know what GIT? This paragraph is absolutely poetic, and could only have been written by one who has anguished over its subject. Consider this...I would rather live my whole lifetime believing in a loving God, even if it were a false hope...than to live my whole life dreading the possibility of God's wrath. Either way...if you hold to predestination, and you don't know whether your lot is eternal life with God or without Him, why not choose to believe in a loving God? If it's already planned it won't matter anyway, right? At least this way you are able to enjoy life without striving for His acceptance. Choose to believe you're already loved and accepted...just as you are. You might be surprised at what happens with that choice. Placing your whole eternal future in the trust of the Almighty God may sound scary, but I think it's a lot scarier to trust in my own efforts. Even if I were "good" like the elder brother in the Prodigal parable, I would still have to admit that in some ways I am not perfect...and since perfection is what God requires, I'd still never be good enough. The only way to achieve that is to rely 100% on our Father's provision just as the younger brother did. Of course he had to recognize that he was living apart from his father's desire for him. Jesus' righteousness (not our own) and His saving blood are our Father's provison. The elder son in the story misses out on the loving heart of his father, even when his father pleads for him to come. The son's hardness of heart doesn't allow him to see his own sin, and that in itself is enough to keep him away from his father's home. Both sons allowed sin to separate them from their father. Which is worse...the sin of squandering our lives in the world...or the sin of self-righteously believing we are somehow good enough to deserve all the father has? No problem. You're in the company of many folks who prefer a quieter, more reverent Sunday morning. Then you should have no worries about an angry God. Your perspective of God makes Him seem cold and calculating. Has that been your experience with some of your close relationships..your father? No need to answer that...just something to think about. Sometimes people transpose their earthly relationships onto their perception of God. But then I don't know you at all, so I should likely SHUT UP. I hope my attempts to understand are not offensive to you. Nice way of communicating here. Thanks. Blessings, Linda
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Post by gloryintruth on Sept 30, 2007 6:43:09 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply to my post. It was really nice to read. I value your perspective. Where is that quote, GIT...I need to read it in context.I'm citing from memory, but I'm pretty sure it's Psalm 90 or Psalm 91. I read it a couple of years ago, but it stuck in my mind. I was using the New Internation Version, so I'm unsure as to its rendering elsewhere. (By the way, out of curiosity, which version of the Bible do you prefer? I personally use the New International Version for all my reading, and the King James Version for whenever I pray through the scriptures - and of course, the "liturgy" as it were, in the meetings). You know what GIT? This paragraph is absolutely poetic, and could only have been written by one who has anguished over its subject. It is a subject that has brought me immense suffering and immense anguish. I have battled with it for many years. As you might have noticed, I am a person who does not often compromise. I have convictions which are absolute and I stick by them absolutely, because I need to have things I can have total and utter confidence in. Any uncertainty about anything is an torment for me - if I have 99% certainty, but 1% doubt, then to me it is a recipe for tossing and turning and study and worry. Like Luther I have sought a God I can have total confidence in. But I admit, because there are some things I cannot know absolutely about God, I find God often an enigma to me and a source of worry. I find it difficult not to know anything - like, for example, God's thoughts about me, my life, and my future. For me, God and Jesus whom he sent, is the ultimate contradiction of life and reality, which on one hand it is a joyous thing, but on the other, is hard to bear. Consider this...I would rather live my whole lifetime believing in a loving God, even if it were a false hope...than to live my whole life dreading the possibility of God's wrath.As alternatives go, the first is certainly nicer. Yet, strange though it is, I would prefer to know I was doomed to hell so that I could fret about it (for at least I would KNOW), than to embrace a false hope. I need total assurance that what I believe is totally true. At least this way you are able to enjoy life without striving for His acceptance. This comment brought me up with a start. Isn't this what our Christian service is all about - striving for God's approval and acceptance? I have wearied myself striving for God's approval, but I feel I will never be a good enough Christian to come up to Christ's high standards. Choose to believe you're already loved and accepted...just as you are. You might be surprised at what happens with that choice. There are times when I do feel loved by God, and there are other times when I don't. I wonder sometimes if I am locked into a maddened spiritual condition, otherwise called rebellion. The only way to achieve that is to rely 100% on our Father's provision just as the younger brother did. Of course he had to recognize that he was living apart from his father's desire for him. Jesus' righteousness (not our own) and His saving blood are our Father's provison. Yet how can we ever KNOW that we are recipients of that righteousness and salvation. I may THINK I am, but is this the case in reality. I know these thoughts must come across as crazy, but I honestly struggle with these issues. Which is worse...the sin of squandering our lives in the world...or the sin of self-righteously believing we are somehow good enough to deserve all the father has? A good point. I hope my attempts to understand are not offensive to you. No Linda I'm not offended. Indeed I'm glad you made mention of these things, because it's very thought provoking. Thanks for your reply. Peace be unto you.
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Post by selah on Sept 30, 2007 16:52:26 GMT -5
I use the NIV 90% of the time, but occasionally use KJV and other translations for cross referencing etc. I also like to use the "Online Greek and Hebrew Interlinears." I read Psalm 90, the prayer of Moses. It does emphasize the perdicament of man as he relates to God, although the prayer of verses 13-17 is answered in Christ. Moses was a law-dependent Jew. The letter of the law brings death, but the law of the Spirit brings life. In recognizing our need, and requesting our Father's provision, we are satisfied in His "unfailing love." Psalm 90:14 Romans 5:2-5 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, (faith in the finished work of Christ..both in his righteous life for us and in his sacrificial death for us) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.Doubting has been long thought to be a grievous sin against God. That would explain your anxiety about it. You are intent on doing what is right; therefore doubting seems outside of your role in life. That's how you see it, but what does God say about it? Does He expect us to know everything? Does He have that expectation? In Isaiah 1:18 the Lord says, "Come now and let us reason together." If we had no doubts or questions, why would He ask us to reason with Him? Also, Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. So, obviously there will be things we doubt and question. That's perfectly normal, and God expects it....He even ASKS us to reason with Him. Also, Psalm 103:14 14 for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.If doubting, reasoning, questioning with God creates anxiety for you, please just talk openly to God about that. He can handle it. I suspect that anxiety is born out of a perception that didn't come from our Father. At least that was my experience, and I'm glad to know Him now as my loving Father who invites my questions, and longs to work through it all with me. More incredibly poetic thoughts. You are so poingnantly and honestly expressing what most of us have felt, and sometimes still feel. And....it is not a sin to express it...in fact...it is GOOD to express it. Did you say you are writing? I hope you are. Back to Psalm 90...it seems that even Moses saw God as a source of worry...but remember, that was before the mystery was revealed...Jesus Christ who saves...who removes that worry from us, should we choose to believe. But what if you could KNOW that your portion was eternity with God in the realm of heavenly glory? Going by what you said at first...that you DON'T know...well, if I were in that position...(the not-knowing position), I would simply pick the choice I liked the best ...since I couldn't really KNOW anyway. But, what if you COULD KNOW that your life is with God forever? Is it possible to KNOW? 1John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.Ephesians 1:13-14 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.If you believe the word of truth from the scripture, then you will find that we can KNOW, and have complete assurance that we have eternal life. And what would give you that total assurance, if not the living God in whom you place your trust? Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.How do we get to have the Spirit that testifies with our spirit? By asking God for Him. Luke 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"Either you believe this or you don't. If you don't and you want to, then you can ask for that too. Mark 9:24 Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"No, this is not what Christian service is all about. Unfortunately that perception is very common among man, but it isn't true. Just ask God about it, He'll tell you. Scripture makes it VERY clear that it ISN'T about that. Christian service is about receiving God's LOVE and giving it away to others. The Two Commandements and the Great Commission are our mandates. It's not about trying to be good enough for God. If we could accomplish that, then Jesus gave his life for no reason. Being a believer is BELIEVING that God, by His Amazing Grace, has paid the price for our sin and has credited Jesus' righteousness to our account. That is the GOOD NEWS..the gospel. Our Christian service is the result of believing that. Wow! Our hearts are FULL with gratitude and LOVE...that's how we are sent out to the world, not with a wagging condemning finger which is often the result of producing our own righteousness. Jesus, Himself said John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.Of course you never will be good enough. None of us will be. Only Christ is good enough...but the good news is God gave Him...His life and His death to us; we are covered by Him, and that's what God sees. GIT, don't place your faith in your "feelings." Feelings are fickle and can't be trusted. Place your faith in Christ, and if you consider the scripture to present the truth about Him, read and find for yourself what He offers. There is a LOT of scripture that says that God LOVES YOU. If you want to please God, believe that He loves you. Rebellion gives the impression of intentionally turning from what you know is right. I don't think you're doing that at all. You may, however, be unknowingly placing a barrier between yourself and God, by simply not taking Him at His word which says, For God so loved the world (you, GIT) that he gave his one and only Son that whoever (meaning you, GIT) believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 Read it like this...For God so loved me that he gave his one and only Son that if I believe in him I shall not perish but have eternal life.These thoughts are NOT crazy at all! They are perfectly normal, and we all have them. The reality of salvation is not impressed in our heads as much as in our hearts by the Spirit. Moving the revelation from the head to the heart...approximately 18 inches ...makes ALL the difference, and that happens when we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit....we move from the law to the indwelling Spirit, just as we see pictured in the scripture through the Jews, who are the race of people through whom God chose to manifest Himself to the world. Ask God for HIS truth to be revealed in you GIT. He will hear you. And to you, Linda
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Post by selah on Sept 30, 2007 17:06:05 GMT -5
One last thing. It's hard to trust our own thoughts, or even the thoughts/opinions of other men concerning our salvation. But God can be completely trusted.
I started thinking about what John said, "I write these things ....that you may KNOW you have eternal life." What things was he referring to?
He says that God's testimony is greater than man's because His testimony is about His son. verse 9
What is the testimony He has given about his Son?
1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
God has given us eternal life. He has already done it! Receive it and rejoice! Then allow Him to continue His work in you, offer yourself to Him in His service of LOVE.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by slow to see on Oct 1, 2007 8:36:23 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing the GOSPEL again with us , Linda. INDEED , it is "good news". No wonder, we find it so hard to believe sometimes, because most "good news" stories are simply not as good as it appears and I find myself sometimes also doubting the Bible and what it actually tells us concerning God's love for us. Oh, to trust HIM , instead of my own feeble "good works" (rags) is sooooo freeing. "and you shall be free indeed"' THANK YOU, JESUS GIT, thanks for expressing your feelings so well. I can relate to some of your feelings, and someitmes pray like Peter, was it? Lord, help thou mine unbelief. If Peter had trusted his own feelings instead of Jesus words about him, I doubt Peter would have been the person he was- Peters feelings would have told him, I have bettrayed my best friend and saviour , I am hopeless, I will go about in sackcloth and ashes the rest of my days and MAYBE I will be accepted somehow if I can somehow be good enough from now on etc. etc. Instead, Peter believed and was VERY helpful in spreading the "good news", like we all can and should do, in whatever way we can , including skits, visits, movies, radio , meetings, .......
Alv
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Post by OzE on Oct 1, 2007 17:19:26 GMT -5
Linda, that was beautiful, like apples of gold in pictures of silver. Thank you!
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