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Post by studylearning on Aug 19, 2006 16:14:08 GMT -5
Reading the happy birthdays to Edgar brought more hurt to mind.
I was reflecting how that over the many many many years in fellowship, it seemed that always there were a few of the special saints who were considered the Chosen few that always had time put aside for their birthdays and such.
I mean like after a Wed night bible study or Sunday meeting they always had a cake or special event to celebrate Birthdays or Anniversaries. As I noted all of the friends in the meetings, I asked myself why always only these and none of the others. Well it also seemed that these were the ones who always had the most visits from the workers also. I traveled quite a bit and noted that this practice was also similar in other areas.
Does the rest of the saints not count or matter? How do those in the chosen few fellowship feel when they know they are ignoring others and always getting the attention? Is this exclusive with exclusive? Lets see now.
You are a good enough saint to be a member but not good enough to be accepted. Yep that seems to be the way it works. No wonder some start to study and learn.
My Two Cents
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2006 17:00:59 GMT -5
Every time I have heard the kind of situations that described here being spoken on in any meeting by the workers it has ALWAYS been explained as; "The people are not perfect but the way is".
I have never felt that to be a scriptural explanation for addressing these types of situations. We know Jesus is perfect and he is The Way. Workers say that 'the way' (meetings) is perfect.
Perhaps someone would be willing to try and explain the above quote? I know I have formed an opinion in my mind of that quote but I have never heard the quote itself explained.
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 19, 2006 21:58:41 GMT -5
Reading the happy birthdays to Edgar brought more hurt to mind. I was reflecting how that over the many many many years in fellowship, it seemed that always there were a few of the special saints who were considered the Chosen few that always had time put aside for their birthdays and such. I mean like after a Wed night bible study or Sunday meeting they always had a cake or special event to celebrate Birthdays or Anniversaries. As I noted all of the friends in the meetings, I asked myself why always only these and none of the others. Well it also seemed that these were the ones who always had the most visits from the workers also. I traveled quite a bit and noted that this practice was also similar in other areas. Does the rest of the saints not count or matter? How do those in the chosen few fellowship feel when they know they are ignoring others and always getting the attention? Is this exclusive with exclusive? Lets see now. You are a good enough saint to be a member but not good enough to be accepted. Yep that seems to be the way it works. No wonder some start to study and learn. My Two Cents Gee, studylearning! I must have been really not one of "those saints" because I didn't even know people did this kind of thing on an in the meeting basis! We kept birthdays within our family and our closest friends though! Best! Edy
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Post by to studylearning on Aug 20, 2006 4:52:35 GMT -5
what did Jesus say when He was asked are there be few which are chosen? we are responsible for our own salvation. your salvation does not hinge on what others say. so why bother to worry about what others say?
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Post by jxr on Aug 20, 2006 7:00:13 GMT -5
Every time I have heard the kind of situations that described here being spoken on in any meeting by the workers it has ALWAYS been explained as; "The people are not perfect but the way is". I have never felt that to be a scriptural explanation for addressing these types of situations. We know Jesus is perfect and he is The Way. Workers say that 'the way' (meetings) is perfect. Perhaps someone would be willing to try and explain the above quote? I know I have formed an opinion in my mind of that quote but I have never heard the quote itself explained. This expression The people are not perfect but the way is. is just a cop-out. An excuse for bad behaviour without properly acknowledging it and putting it right. If I remember rightly, Jesus had somewhat to say about being perfect (Matthew 5:48).
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Post by prue on Aug 20, 2006 7:08:50 GMT -5
when Jesus went up into the mountain to meet with moses and elijah he took his favorite disciples with him - peter james and john. when Jesus resurrected the little girl he took into the room with him peter james and john we all have our favorites and i think john was the most favored
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Post by prue on Aug 20, 2006 7:13:15 GMT -5
hi - this verse - This expression The people are not perfect but the way is. is just a cop-out. An excuse for bad behaviour without properly acknowledging it and putting it right.
no its not a cop out - it refers to something greater than its members - Jesus sent out his 12 disciples as standard bearers - one was a thief - one doubted - one denied him - others had ego issues - none understood people were to hear in the gospel the voice of God - and understand that only one was worthy - our lord and savior Jesus Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2006 7:17:45 GMT -5
when Jesus went up into the mountain to meet with moses and elijah he took his favorite disciples with him - peter james and john. when Jesus resurrected the little girl he took into the room with him peter james and john we all have our favorites and i think john was the most favored Favorites??? James- Head of the Jerusalem Church Peter- Leader at Pentecost John- The last living Apostle, received the Revelation Jesus took these three and built into them because He had called them into key leadership positions in His church, that was then yet to come. That is called discipleship. He brough these three especially into experiences that they needed to later carry out the tasks He would appoint them to. If God has "favorites", as men do, even among His chosen, then I guess we can throw that "no partiality" teaching in the trash, and call God a hypocrite. (NOT) Karl
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Post by prue on Aug 20, 2006 7:32:52 GMT -5
lacpaster - this is a great mystery the disciple whom Jesus loved was the one who leaned on his breast - and peter asked him to ask Jesus a question - jesus spoke of those who would be greatest in the kingdom and this would offend the others - i think all the disciples had important roles
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2006 7:42:26 GMT -5
lacpaster - this is a great mystery the disciple whom Jesus loved was the one who leaned on his breast - and peter asked him to ask Jesus a question - jesus spoke of those who would be greatest in the kingdom and this would offend the others - i think all the disciples had important roles What is a great mystery? Karl
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Post by jxr on Aug 20, 2006 8:03:08 GMT -5
hi - this verse - This expression The people are not perfect but the way is. is just a cop-out. An excuse for bad behaviour without properly acknowledging it and putting it right. no its not a cop out - it refers to something greater than its members - Jesus sent out his 12 disciples as standard bearers - one was a thief - one doubted - one denied him - others had ego issues - none understood people were to hear in the gospel the voice of God - and understand that only one was worthy - our lord and savior Jesus Christ. Prue, I'm sorry, but it is a cop-out. It is used as an excuse, to avoid proper acknowledgement, apology and repentance. For why else would this lame expression need to be trotted out? Did Jesus ever use anything like it to justify the behavior of his disciples?
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Post by prue on Aug 20, 2006 8:03:43 GMT -5
the mystery for me is why Jesus loved some more than others - maybe for john it was because of his child-like simplicity and deep love as shown in his letters
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Post by studylearning on Aug 20, 2006 8:08:00 GMT -5
Jesus taught us to love one another. It is not about what others say or do. It is about what others who claim "They Only Know Truth" fail to do.
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Is it just to ignore your brother just so you can sit at the head of the table?
Yes it is a cop-out in the way F&W use it. As with the above referenced verses I will ask also; And when people understand the nature of Gods love are they not to do in kind. As to those within the fellowship WHO ARE LEAST, do you ignore them also because they are not special like you?
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
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Post by prue on Aug 20, 2006 8:09:59 GMT -5
i dont mean that people dont acknowledge or put things right - that is not right
with the imperfect apostles - judas repented - peter became bold and confessed Jesus to his martyrdom - thomas acknowledged the risen lord - and they all truely leant who was greatest
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Post by jxr on Aug 20, 2006 8:17:34 GMT -5
i dont mean that people dont acknowledge or put things right - that is not right with the imperfect apostles - judas repented - peter became bold and confessed Jesus to his martyrdom - thomas acknowledged the risen lord - and they all truely leant who was greatest It's ok Prue, we'll let you defend the indefensible.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 20, 2006 14:43:47 GMT -5
The saying is true: God's way is perfect, His people are not. It's probably better to put it that way instead of saying, "the way is perfect, people are not."
Because, whose way, which way, what way are you talking about? The ONLY way that is perfect is God's. And, it's true, we are sinful, we are flawed. We will be hurt and we will hurt others whether we mean to or not. It's a fact of life. It's not to be used as an excuse, but it does make a great point. Religion in itself is not perfect. You'll see many a flawed religion, even Christian ones.
On the subjects of birthdays- I was just thinking of this the other day... when it was my birthday, and then my husbands.
My husband's birthday was on first Sunday- and we always have potluck following. I told the meeting the previous Sunday (and that following Wednesday) that it was his birthday and I wanted to do something special. I made bunches and bunches of cookies.... and come first sunday...
Barely anyone stayed for potluck (usually everyone stays). Most people made excuses and left. Here I was with loads of cookies and only a handful of people to eat them.
Kinda felt a little crummy (although my husband could have cared less), but when I really thought about it.. I realized that these people probably didn't realize how important it was to me. They weren't being considerate, but they weren't going out of their way trying to be hurtful. They weren't mindful of it.
A lot of hurt feelings come from people being unmindfully inconsiderate. A lot of times, I feel that people still view me as a little child, even though I have children of my own- and so they don't really listen to me or take me seriously. It's not that they are trying to hurt me, but... they can- unintentionally.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 20, 2006 14:53:29 GMT -5
Withopeneyes, perhaps they that left were afraid that someone's head would be cut off.
Ah yes, such I think is the only "example" of what happens at a birthday celebration.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 20, 2006 15:00:37 GMT -5
Eh?
I don't understand your point.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 20, 2006 15:11:37 GMT -5
Perhaps you have yet to have received the "professing" revelation.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 20, 2006 15:21:03 GMT -5
I received that "revelation" when I was 13. Didn't do to well for me then.
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Post by studylearning on Aug 20, 2006 15:23:40 GMT -5
The saying is true: God's way is perfect, His people are not. It's probably better to put it that way instead of saying, "the way is perfect, people are not." Because, whose way, which way, what way are you talking about? The ONLY way that is perfect is God's. And, it's true, we are sinful, we are flawed. We will be hurt and we will hurt others whether we mean to or not. It's a fact of life. It's not to be used as an excuse, but it does make a great point. Religion in itself is not perfect. You'll see many a flawed religion, even Christian ones. On the subjects of birthdays- I was just thinking of this the other day... when it was my birthday, and then my husbands. My husband's birthday was on first Sunday- and we always have potluck following. I told the meeting the previous Sunday (and that following Wednesday) that it was his birthday and I wanted to do something special. I made bunches and bunches of cookies.... and come first sunday... Barely anyone stayed for potluck (usually everyone stays). Most people made excuses and left. Here I was with loads of cookies and only a handful of people to eat them. Kinda felt a little crummy (although my husband could have cared less), but when I really thought about it.. I realized that these people probably didn't realize how important it was to me. They weren't being considerate, but they weren't going out of their way trying to be hurtful. They weren't mindful of it. A lot of hurt feelings come from people being unmindfully inconsiderate. A lot of times, I feel that people still view me as a little child, even though I have children of my own- and so they don't really listen to me or take me seriously. It's not that they are trying to hurt me, but... they can- unintentionally. Withopeneyes I can agree with your post. I think in many cases the disrespect is unintentional. That is why I noted that it is not what ones do or say, (It is what they fail to do or say)-- I was thinking of one Wed night study that it was announced that it was so and so's birthday and they had juice and cake for anyone who chose to stay. On of the older ladies who was faithful and divorced for years mentioned her birthday was the week before. I wondered how it was that her birthday was not remembered. I suggested to her that we should sing happy birthday but she said "no Just keep it quiet" She was deeply hurt. I will note that these ones who had the birthday celebrated always had their birthdays/anniversaries celebrated. It was the elder who always put them up on the pedestal. This was true for a few of the others. Now I can understand favorites but these were ones who came first in everything regarding the local fellowship. First to get calls from the workers, first to get calls for any plans and yes first to get call for private gatherings. My point I guess is that regardless of deliberate or unintentional there should be a more conscious effort to not leave certain ones out. I believe it is the weaker, meeker, poor in spirit, they that mourn, and so on. You know the ones who need the open acceptance and love that Jesus always went out of his way for. These are the ones who should be lifted up within the group and not the chosen few. I hope I am explaining myself OK for you to understand.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 20, 2006 15:28:24 GMT -5
I completely understand (and agree).
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Post by Simple on Aug 20, 2006 16:55:01 GMT -5
The saying is true: God's way is perfect, His people are not. It's probably better to put it that way instead of saying, "the way is perfect, people are not." Because, whose way, which way, what way are you talking about? The ONLY way that is perfect is God's. And, it's true, we are sinful, we are flawed. We will be hurt and we will hurt others whether we mean to or not. It's a fact of life. It's not to be used as an excuse, but it does make a great point. Religion in itself is not perfect. You'll see many a flawed religion, even Christian ones. On the subjects of birthdays- I was just thinking of this the other day... when it was my birthday, and then my husbands. My husband's birthday was on first Sunday- and we always have potluck following. I told the meeting the previous Sunday (and that following Wednesday) that it was his birthday and I wanted to do something special. I made bunches and bunches of cookies.... and come first sunday... Barely anyone stayed for potluck (usually everyone stays). Most people made excuses and left. Here I was with loads of cookies and only a handful of people to eat them. Kinda felt a little crummy (although my husband could have cared less), but when I really thought about it.. I realized that these people probably didn't realize how important it was to me. They weren't being considerate, but they weren't going out of their way trying to be hurtful. They weren't mindful of it. A lot of hurt feelings come from people being unmindfully inconsiderate. A lot of times, I feel that people still view me as a little child, even though I have children of my own- and so they don't really listen to me or take me seriously. It's not that they are trying to hurt me, but... they can- unintentionally. Maybe you are talking too much? (just a thought) I know I do. What if we had a budget of words to use every day? Before I got sidetracked by the devil, I had very little to say, I was seeking answers from God and the more I talked the more muddled the waters became. The clear waters of Truth become very muddled when we throw out our opinions every chance we get. It makes it difficult on the people around us too. I loved being tongue tied by the Spirit of God. Unwilling to miss one precious thing. The devil hates for us to turn from him. Due to my flesh, I was never happy to just let my behavior speak for itself. I bit my tongue for the sake of God's will. I could go on and on but.....................why? Has anyone else ever experienced this phenomena?
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 20, 2006 17:12:17 GMT -5
Actually, I barely speak at all..... which may not be apparent since I'm pretty good at typing a lot.
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Post by Simple on Aug 20, 2006 17:37:25 GMT -5
Actually, I barely speak at all..... which may not be apparent since I'm pretty good at typing a lot. Thanks for the answer. Here is a summary of what I meant.........to say Born shy, timid, insecure, low self esteem lived forty years trying to measure up, sinned alot..... met a future worker, saw a resilience in her, I did not have. I was always afraid of failure, rejection, humiliation, etc......... became "involved" with this person as a "friend" realized I was a man in a desert. realized I had nothing to lose by seeking Truth. accepted worst things I could think of as consequences before I started Heard a voice within and was now to face a series of moments of Truth. Faced my fears, was cleaned, restored and made new again by the Spirit of God, which bears witness to his Son. Then I started talking about it and haven't stopped since. yada yada yada. Sadly talking is a substitute for doing. Now I wonder why other "Christians" do not have this experience and try to patiently wait on the Lord. Even as a sinner I love God I love his work in me, and I love his work in others. I am not to fond of those who think they should point to themselves. (Even though they simply do not know any better).
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Post by seekingtruth on Aug 20, 2006 18:20:24 GMT -5
Years ago just after my non-professing husband professed the workers spent a lot of time at our home. The meeting was just down the street from us and the elder was getting elderly. They had talked to us about maybe having the "privilege of meeting in our home in a few years". Then one (the older WISER one) talked to my husband about my wearing pants about the house and how he should talk to me about it and then came to me and talked about his smoking and how I should talk to him about it. We did talk to each other and came to the decision that if the worker had a problem with either of us, he was the one to talk to us about it and not pass the buck. How stupid is that? To put a married couple at odds? We moved out of state shortly after that. After my husband (who exited the meeting scene in short order) passed away the younger companion who is now an older companion came to visit and said, "We sure spent a lot of time at your house back then - I don't know why we did that!" Yupper, wasted time especially when they could have been staying with folks who didn't have young children, all the comforts and no faults. Sincerity and/or tact isn't a requirement of workers!
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Post by really on Aug 20, 2006 20:22:21 GMT -5
and said, "We sure spent a lot of time at your house back then - I don't know why we did that!" I find that VERY hard to believe that a worker would say that to you.
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Post by scottishviking on Aug 21, 2006 2:43:34 GMT -5
lacpaster - this is a great mystery the disciple whom Jesus loved was the one who leaned on his breast - and peter asked him to ask Jesus a question - jesus spoke of those who would be greatest in the kingdom and this would offend the others - i think all the disciples had important roles there is a theory that the disciple Jesus loved was infact Judas; Jesus loved him becuase he was instrumental in the crucifiction happening and all that comes from it
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