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Post by Hope For All on Aug 16, 2006 13:42:54 GMT -5
How many of you have wondered, like I have recently, -what ever happened to all of the Jews who converted to Christianity in the years following Christ's resurrection.
1. Did they continue?
2. Did they just "die out" (like I used to think)?
3. Did they stop being "Jews" and instead took on different nationalities in order to remain Christians?
4. Did they continue on as a seperate Christian group running parrallel to gentile Christians?
I have started to study the Messianic Jews of today and am amazed at how close their doctrine seems to be to the first Jewish converts who lived under the oversight of James- the Bishop of Jerusalem.
I am starting to believe that there has been a remnant of Jewish Christians in some form eversince the time of Christ.
Messianic Jews have it very tough today. They are not accepted as Isrealites by their fellow Jews- nor are they accepted as Christians by most Christians today. Yet they claim all of the orthodox Christian doctrine.
Thoughts??
Love, HFA
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Post by selah on Aug 16, 2006 22:29:23 GMT -5
HFA, I wish I knew more about this too, since I'm involved with Messianic Jews in Israel. I guess I should just ask them, huh? I will be spending the month of November in Israel, so I hope to get better educated about this while I'm there.
I studied a course called "The Jewish Origins of Christianity" by Dr. Robert Fischer. It states that there were Messianic believers and Gentile Christians worshipping alonside each other. In 325 C.E., Constantine drew severe boundaries to keep the Jews outside of Christianity. That was one reason he legislated Sunday worship instead of Saturday. The Messianic believers who were keeping Shabbat would be automatically disqualified as Christians, and that's what Constantine wanted.
Today there are many Messianic believers who continue to keep the feasts etc. These people love Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah) just as we read of in the N.T.
One Jewish Messianic believer I know says that his father's home was the meeting place of one of the first believing fellowships in Israel after 1948. The congregation was composed mostly of his own relatives, but gradually grew to include many others.
Today, many of the Messianic ministries trace their roots to this fellowship. I have met about 13 Messianic and Christian ministries in Israel so far, and in November, I hope to meet more of the 60 involved with Operation Outreach.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 6:19:11 GMT -5
Re Messianic Jews of yesterday...
Of the list of possibilities I would chose Did they stop being "Jews" and instead took on different nationalities in order to remain Christians?
as being the most likely. It said a "great company of priests were obedient to the faith" (note that word Obedient) These people could no longer serve as priests. In the great disruption of AD 70 many would have been driven out of Israel if they had remained.
The fate of many of these people was that, like the ten lost tribes, they simply intermarried into whatever culture they lived in. Being Jewish is not merely racial, it is also religious.
As to the statement...
I.. am amazed at how close their doctrine seems to be to the first Jewish converts who lived under the oversight of James- the Bishop of Jerusalem.
There is a lot of this James the Just stuff going around now, ie Robert Eisenman et al. Some of it is sly, atheistic and wilful. I dispute that James was really that different in doctrine to Paul. The pre AD 70 Jewish Christians still strongly identified with the temple and Jewish culture.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 6:27:37 GMT -5
Hi Selah, you wrote "Constantine drew severe boundaries to keep the Jews outside of Christianity. That was one reason he legislated Sunday worship instead of Saturday."
I found you posting interesting and informative. I didn't know about these so-called Messianic Jews.
Our Sunday was known in the NT as the "Lord's Day." Perhaps there were people still serving on the Sabbath (Saturday) but my understanding is that the apostolic church (which was just one amongst many) observed the Sunday, ie John ca AD100 said "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day."
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Post by selah on Aug 17, 2006 9:49:53 GMT -5
Yes, many Christian believers began meeting together on the first day of the week to break bread together and to gather their collections. There were still those who continued to keep Saturday, the Sabbath as well.
Although many believers kept the "Lord's Day", it did not become a legal Christian doctrine until Constantine legalized Christianity in 325 C.E. Before that time Christians were known as a radical and revolutionary group. After the Council of Nicea they simmered down and settled into a more rote style of meeting and worship, in line with the desires of the Roman Emperor.
Although Christians met on the first day of the week in the N.T., I believe many Jewish believers continued to keep Shabbat...and still do.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 17, 2006 13:13:59 GMT -5
Yes, many Christian believers began meeting together on the first day of the week to break bread together and to gather their collections. There were still those who continued to keep Saturday, the Sabbath as well. Although many believers kept the "Lord's Day", it did not become a legal Christian doctrine until Constantine legalized Christianity in 325 C.E. Before that time Christians were known as a radical and revolutionary group. After the Council of Nicea they simmered down and settled into a more rote style of meeting and worship, in line with the desires of the Roman Emperor. Although Christians met on the first day of the week in the N.T., I believe many Jewish believers continued to keep Shabbat...and still do. Blessings, Linda Dear Linda, You are going to Israel? That is awesome! You are a brave girl. ;D Please tell all the Messianic Jews you are in contact with that I think of them a lot and admire their courage greatly. We are pretty ignorant about the whole Jewish people thing here in the West arn't we? The LORD's return and 1000 year reign in the last days will play out in the Holy Land. Jerusalem in particular. I have every confidence that God is in control and all things are playing out right on schedule. Love in Him, HFA PS- I admire your posts a lot.
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 17, 2006 13:43:08 GMT -5
Hi Selah, you wrote "Constantine drew severe boundaries to keep the Jews outside of Christianity. That was one reason he legislated Sunday worship instead of Saturday."I found you posting interesting and informative. I didn't know about these so-called Messianic Jews. Our Sunday was known in the NT as the "Lord's Day." Perhaps there were people still serving on the Sabbath (Saturday) but my understanding is that the apostolic church (which was just one amongst many) observed the Sunday, ie John ca AD100 said "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day."Dear Bert, Like you- I never realized there were Messianic Jews today. It is estimated there are about 60,000 world wide. Not a lot but still... My own conviction on the matter is that these may be who Jesus was referring to when he said, "Few there be that find it"- afterall Jesus spoke this to the Jews. This is the only way that I can reconcile this saying to the one in Revelation where it states there will be an "inumerable number from every nation". Few Jews but many Gentiles- which in itself (The Gentiles coming to believe in The Living God) was to be a sign to the Jewish nation that Christ was the Messiah. Regards, HFA
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 17, 2006 14:07:52 GMT -5
I think in Jesus the Sabbath was never lessened in stature and still part of the Ten Commandments which are to be kept.
I think "the Lord's Day" does not mean "Sunday" or "the first day of the week". I'm not sure what the term means. The term might be a reference a future reference.
I think the first believers kept the resurrection observance on a annual basis.
I think the gentiles corrupted the Christian religion out of their own desire to have things the way they want and to be disassociated with the Jews.
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Post by Gene on Aug 17, 2006 14:26:08 GMT -5
I think in Jesus the Sabbath was never lessened in stature and still part of the Ten Commandments which are to be kept. I think "the Lord's Day" does not mean "Sunday" or "the first day of the week". I'm not sure what the term means. The term might be a reference a future reference. I think the first believers kept the resurrection observance on a annual basis. I think the gentiles corrupted the Christian religion out of their own desire to have things the way they want and to be disassociated with the Jews. Greg, just to be clear, do you mean Saturday when you say the Sabbath is still to be observed?
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 17, 2006 14:33:29 GMT -5
Dear Linda,
Do you think it wise to travel to Israel right now? It would be wonderful if you could be there for Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles in October!
I'm wondering if the Messianic Jews you know are as the ones I've meet, at least in the respect that they continue to believe in the Cabalah with Jesus added, instead of discarding the traditions of the elders (as Jesus put it) and following only Jesus?
I'm kind of snowed under with parent responsibilites right now and won't be able to contribute much, but I'm interested in this subject as well.
Best regards, Edy
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Post by selah on Aug 17, 2006 15:31:59 GMT -5
Hi Sylvestra, The Lord opened the door for me to go to Israel, so I feel if there is a change, it will have to be Him who closes it. I'll be there for November, so I'll miss the October festivities...awe... Here's a link to one of Operation Outreach's pages. The white head in the picture is me! If you click on IPW Ministries on the left sidebar, you will see the people we're involved with. Maybe you know some of them. Blessings, Linda www.operationoutreach.ca/ministries.htm
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Post by selah on Aug 17, 2006 15:40:09 GMT -5
I agree.
I'm not sure about this either Greg.
I don't know.
I tend to believe this as well.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 17, 2006 17:28:19 GMT -5
I think in Jesus the Sabbath was never lessened in stature and still part of the Ten Commandments which are to be kept. I think "the Lord's Day" does not mean "Sunday" or "the first day of the week". I'm not sure what the term means. The term might be a reference a future reference. I think the first believers kept the resurrection observance on a annual basis. I think the gentiles corrupted the Christian religion out of their own desire to have things the way they want and to be disassociated with the Jews. Greg, As far as the first day of the week being the Lord's day- all I have to go on is what is written in scripture as well as what some of the early writers like Justin Martyr said. In the few cases recorded it seems apparant that they met on Sunday to break bread. I do not find anywhere that they met on the sabbath for this purpose. Justin wrote in his 1st apology dated about 150AD, "And on the first day of the week we all (Christians) assemble together from the towns and villages for worship and to partake of the Eucharist". I believe that this was taught by the first apostles- but do not have any other proof. Love, HFA
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 17, 2006 17:36:50 GMT -5
Greg, just to be clear, do you mean Saturday when you say the Sabbath is still to be observed? Yes. Sunday has never (rightly) been the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the seventh day.
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 17, 2006 17:38:20 GMT -5
Hi Sylvestra, The Lord opened the door for me to go to Israel, so I feel if there is a change, it will have to be Him who closes it. I'll be there for November, so I'll miss the October festivities...awe... Here's a link to one of Operation Outreach's pages. The white head in the picture is me! If you click on IPW Ministries on the left sidebar, you will see the people we're involved with. Maybe you know some of them. Blessings, Linda www.operationoutreach.ca/ministries.htmDear Linda, Are the people pictured on IPW Ministries mostly "Jewish"? It appears so by their names. Are they accepted by the government of Israel as citizens of their country? I know initially Israel was not receptive to Messianic Jews coming "home" to Israel. I also read some where that many of the Messianic Jews are coming from Russia. Regards, HFA
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 17:41:32 GMT -5
HFA, I wish I knew more about this too, since I'm involved with Messianic Jews in Israel. I guess I should just ask them, huh? I will be spending the month of November in Israel, so I hope to get better educated about this while I'm there. I studied a course called "The Jewish Origins of Christianity" by Dr. Robert Fischer. It states that there were Messianic believers and Gentile Christians worshipping alonside each other. In 325 C.E., Constantine drew severe boundaries to keep the Jews outside of Christianity. That was one reason he legislated Sunday worship instead of Saturday. The Messianic believers who were keeping Shabbat would be automatically disqualified as Christians, and that's what Constantine wanted. Today there are many Messianic believers who continue to keep the feasts etc. These people love Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah) just as we read of in the N.T. One Jewish Messianic believer I know says that his father's home was the meeting place of one of the first believing fellowships in Israel after 1948. The congregation was composed mostly of his own relatives, but gradually grew to include many others. Today, many of the Messianic ministries trace their roots to this fellowship. I have met about 13 Messianic and Christian ministries in Israel so far, and in November, I hope to meet more of the 60 involved with Operation Outreach. Blessings, Linda Hi Linda Pm me if you'd like. I have a very good friend who is a missionary in Israel. I could put you in contact with him if there's anything you might be curious about before you go... Just fyi- Yours in Him, Karl
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 17, 2006 17:44:13 GMT -5
Greg, As far as the first day of the week being the Lord's day- all I have to go on is what is written in scripture as well as what some of the early writers like Justin Martyr said. In the few cases recorded it seems apparant that they met on Sunday to break bread. I do not find anywhere that they met on the sabbath for this purpose. Justin wrote in his 1st apology dated about 150AD[/u], "And on the first day of the week we all (Christians) assemble together from the towns and villages for worship and to partake of the Eucharist". I believe that this was taught by the first apostles- but do not have any other proof.[/u] Love, HFA[/quote] The first believers probably did not gather on the Sabbath for the rememberance of Jesus in bread and wine, but annually. "About 150AD" is plenty past the life of the apostles. I know of "no proof" the first belivers met weekly on Sunday and/or only that day for remembrance of Jesus in sharing wine and bread.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 17, 2006 17:48:20 GMT -5
I had written that I think the first believers kept the resurrection observance on an annual basis. I should have written I think the first believers kept the remembrance of Jesus in bread and wine on an annual basis. Also, the resurrection observance is in baptism, as is the burial.
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Post by a believer on Aug 17, 2006 18:44:47 GMT -5
There are groups of Messianic Jews in America. I understand there are more in America than Israel.
The guy that took us on our tour around Israel was a Zionist.
The Jews still keep the Sabbath (Saturday), and I agree with Greg many people think the Sabbath is Sunday (the Mormons do).
It appears that Christians still worshiped in the Synagogues on Saturday and kept the Sabbath holy...
Israel is always volatile, you get in and out as fast as you can. It is surprising how tiny the country is given the amount of news we get on it.
I have a friend who has been living ther for about 5 years adn working for the Anglican church ministries, she has not met any trouble.
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Post by selah on Aug 17, 2006 18:59:42 GMT -5
Hi HFA, Yes many of them are Jewish, but not all of them. Some are Canadian, American and other as well. Though many have had difficulty making aliya (immigrating to Israel with acceptance), they are still trying. I have a Jewish friend in Winnipeg who just made aliya recently and will be returning to Israel soon. He is in his 80s. Yes, there are a large number of believing Russian Jews. When I was there in 2004, I visited one facility that has a primarily Russian congregation. I believe this was one of the first ministries to become a part of Operation Outreach. They were meeting in a tent back then. Another congregation had to meet in a fishing boat to avoid the violent persecution of the Orthodox Jews. This congregation was launched by a man who was a very successful businessman...definitely at least a millionaire..likely more than that. He gave all his fortune, including the building that housed his business to Christian organizations...then started growing a local fellowship of Messianic believers. This man, was one who had been raised in the original home fellowship from 1948 that I mentioned in a previous post. There are so many stories. There are elderly Russian Jews still being discovered, who fled to the North to escape the holocaust. An organization called The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews of Canada www.ifcj.ca/pages/i58.asp attempts to provide for these poor souls. Most likely do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. There is so so much to learn. I didn't know...but I'm learning now. Blessings, Linda
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Post by selah on Aug 17, 2006 19:03:49 GMT -5
Hi Karl,
That would be great, if it's no trouble. It's just so interesting to meet people from the other side of the world!
Thanks, Linda
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Post by Gene on Aug 18, 2006 0:17:49 GMT -5
Greg, just to be clear, do you mean Saturday when you say the Sabbath is still to be observed? Yes. Sunday has never (rightly) been the Sabbath. The Sabbath is the seventh day. Thanks. This should probably be another thread, but I'm interested in the concept that some of the 10 Cs should be kept, others not, and this is one of the one that should.
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Post by Study on Aug 18, 2006 13:04:57 GMT -5
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Post by tshilo12 on Aug 23, 2006 23:37:48 GMT -5
I was given a link to this discussion by a former B&R. As a former B&R who has studied Judaism extensively, and "reconverted" [many of my ancestors were apostate Jews b4 becoming 2x2s] to Judaism, I can tell you, Judaism is nothing like what pretty much any of you imagine, and, in fact, not even remotely close to modern day "Messianic Judaism", almost all of which is, in fact, unknowledgeable Jews hoodwinked into becoming Baptists and believing that Christianity and Judaism are somehow compatible. [The founder of Jews for Jesus, for example, while Jewish, is a Baptist preacher.] The most glaring indication of flawed "knowledge" is the assertion that Jewishness is, in any way, "racial"--an idea first, and only, forwarded by Hitler and his ilk. Jewishness is "genetic" only inasmuch as if one's mother is Jewish, that person is Jewish. That said, however, _every_ Jew is either a convert or a descendant of converts...even if that conversion goes back to Har Sinai and the declaration "we will hear and obey". Obedience is not genetic, and perpetuating the idea that it is only furthers the woeful misunderstanding of the declaration that descendants of Avraham [note: not of Moshe nor bnei Yisra'el] could be raised up from the dust if God wished to so.
If you want to know something about Judaism, I recommend starting with jewfaq.org and the wikipedia article on Judaism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism]. There are a number of links there, including to articles comparing and contrasting Judaism and Christianity.
I realize it might thrill your hearts [i.e., give you an adrenalin rush] to hear that there are 60k Jews who are Christians, but it saddens mine to realize that there are 60k Jews who are so ignorant of Torah that they could ever be so egregiously misled as to become Christians.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Christianity...but the doctrine that dictates that Jews need to become Christians is an insidious and vile doctrine that demands that Jews abandon the 2nd commandment that some of you above have declared to still be "in effect"...namely, the prohibition against idolatry. The prohibition against idolatry is not exactly what the wording means in English...instead, it is a prohibition against setting up "intercessors" between ourselves and God Almighty...and, in fact, classifies such intercessors as "abominations". Pathetically, from my perspective, it is this exact same prohibition that causes so much abhorrence among Protestants for the notion of setting up Mary as an intercessor between Catholics and Jesus. It's only if you begin with the supposition that Jesus is the only one who can be your idol tho, then the abhorrence of Mary is possible...if you begin with an understanding that _any_ intercessor is idolatry, you can finally begin to understand why knowledgeable Jews have rejected Christianity almost unanimously ever since Christianity became a religion of Jesus instead of a reform movement to bring people back to God.
If you're going to Israel for a month, instead of encouraging Jews to rebel against God by worshiping Jesus, perhaps your time would be better spent volunteering in a hospital and learning about Jews by working side by side with them to _do good_...
Now...I'm sure this is going to fall on a great many closed ears... that said, if you're interested, since I've long since moved on from being an "ex2x2" to being a fully observant worshipper of the One and Only God, you'll find that responses to this post that are directed at me are likely to go unanswered by me...as I said from the outset, I only came here because my comment was solicited. If you actually want to discuss it with me, as opposed to simply sitting around vaingloriously denigrating everything I've said, please feel free to email me at TShilo12@hotmail.com with a subject line that's not going to make me delete it out of hand [i.e., no "extend your manhood by up to 3 inches overnight!", etc.] ... If all you want to do is say "Christianity has triumphed over Judaism!", feel free to leave such messages here on the messageboard, and good luck with that.
Cheers, -TK
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Post by RobO unlogged on Aug 23, 2006 23:46:18 GMT -5
Why did you bother registering if all you wanted to do was hand out an email address, call Christians idolaters and refuse to interact with refutations of your attacks on us?
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Post by selah on Aug 24, 2006 0:15:55 GMT -5
Hi TK, Thanks for writing. The Judaism 101 (jewfaq.org) is one I visit quite regularly. I'm still learning though. Thanks for the Wikipedia site...I just skimmed it, and WOW...there is a ton of information there! That may be true, but my ears are open. It's my brain I have to get in gear ; there is so much to absorb. As I said, I do hope to get better educated while I'm in Israel, but perusing those sites will help too. I do understand what you're saying about the second commandment. It is not my agenda to go to Israel to convince Jews to give up Judaism. I simply want to love people, and especially those who have been set apart as God's own. I am not coming with any other agenda, but to love. Part of that is motivated by a sense of repentance for the many atrocities committed against Jews, even in the name of Christianity. I sincerely ask forgiveness, for such arrogance and ignorance...and for my own ignorance as well. I have been complacent about the Jewish people even though God has upheld them. I can't tell you how delighted I am to now be learning about their beliefs. Your suggestion of volunteering to work alongside Jews, getting to know them and love them is excellent! I may well be doing something very similar to that. I had a question for you, but now I've forgotten it...that brain thing, you know... . If I remember I'll post again. Blessings, Linda
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Post by tshilo12 on Aug 24, 2006 0:31:24 GMT -5
Why did you bother registering if all you wanted to do was hand out an email address, call Christians idolaters and refuse to interact with refutations of your attacks on us? Your attack on me contains a non sequitur. I did not refuse to interact, I simply said that I have no intention of hanging out here watching how this thread turns out. I handed out my email address, as any thinking individual would grasp, specifically because I'm _inviting_ interaction. As for "attacks", it's pretty sad if you regard honest discourse as an "attack". Christianity is fine for non-Jews. All I "attacked" was Christians attempting to hang a millstone around the neck of Jews by getting Jews [the only people prohibited by the vaunted "10 Commandments" from idolatry], something Jesus condemned, in fact, by enticing them to become "Messianic Jews" [a.k.a. Baptists]. Cheers, TK
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Post by RobO unlogged on Aug 24, 2006 0:41:11 GMT -5
There's really nothing worth respoding to so I won't....except, that I asked you a question, not attacked you. Great logic.
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