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Post by Bumper on Aug 14, 2006 12:01:08 GMT -5
members6.boardhost.com/williamirvine/msg/1154065536.htmlVote in the poll above. Most workers with any "responsibility" will consider themselves to be "God's true servants!" In other words, modern day apostles. Even if their group began in Ireland in the late 1890s! So strange and wondrous!
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Post by yep on Aug 14, 2006 12:37:32 GMT -5
They preach that they are "God's sent ones!" They claim to be the only true messengers of God on the planet Earth!
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Post by and on Aug 14, 2006 17:34:07 GMT -5
They preach that they are "God's sent ones!" They claim to be the only true messengers of God on the planet Earth! and if they are right then you are wrong no?
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Post by Simple on Aug 14, 2006 18:29:57 GMT -5
They preach that they are "God's sent ones!" They claim to be the only true messengers of God on the planet Earth! and if they are right then you are wrong no? As soon as you find someone outside the 2x2's bearing witness to Jesus the workers spiel goes up in smoke. Hook, Line, and sinker...................No wonder they programmed you with their fears. Their job is to keep you from the Truth, not bring it to you. The workers live by fear and they teach fear and they shall harvest fear. Bullies vs Jesus
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Post by prue on Aug 14, 2006 18:48:30 GMT -5
paul killed Gods people or had them put in prison - he never met Jesus - he withstood the real apostles to their face - he took Jesus message far away from the jewish law and way of life paul called himself an apostle - was he an apostle? can anyone living as paul did also call themselves apostles?
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Post by just me on Aug 14, 2006 19:01:15 GMT -5
Gonna show my lack of knowledge of the bible now, so just get the head shaking out of the way now and be done with it. 1) did Paul ACTUALLY refer to himself that way, or was he refered to in that way? 2) If someone is truly called by GOD to spread the true gospel message, AND they are faithful to the scriptures, AND they walk the walk and talk the talk of a real honest to goodness GODLY person...........................Then I would say yea, they could be referred to as an apostle, BUT I dont believe THEY should refer to themselves in that way. In fact it has been my experience that the closer one gets to GOD the LESS qualified they feel to speak " on GOD's behalf " as they see how much they DO NOT know. So in light of that I would be skeptical about ANYONE who claims to be an apostle, in OR out of the 2X2's or whatever ya'll go by these days
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Post by also on Aug 15, 2006 7:10:05 GMT -5
and if they are right then you are wrong no? And if up is down, then down is up, no?
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Post by et tu on Aug 15, 2006 7:22:25 GMT -5
They preach that they are "God's sent ones!" They claim to be the only true messengers of God on the planet Earth! and if they are right then you are wrong no? I am God's sent one. If I am right then you are wrong no?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2006 7:49:25 GMT -5
to Just Me You wrote "In fact it has been my experience that the closer one gets to GOD the LESS qualified they feel to speak " on GOD's behalf " as they see how much they DO NOT know."
Yes, humility is a prerequisite, but do we only allow the proud to speak on God's behalf?
Using the term apostle is no different perhaps than using the word preacher, evangelist (?) disciple, teacher, worker etc.. All these terms were used where it mattered, in the New Testament church.
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Post by just me on Aug 15, 2006 16:23:45 GMT -5
to Just Me You wrote "In fact it has been my experience that the closer one gets to GOD the LESS qualified they feel to speak " on GOD's behalf " as they see how much they DO NOT know." Yes, humility is a prerequisite, but do we only allow the proud to speak on God's behalf? I just knew as soon as I typed that, that someone would question that, or take exception to it, or be offended. All I meant was that they feel unqualified no matter that we look to them for GODly counsel, no matter that we look to them for guidance in accurately understanding scripture. These are the people who rarely speak BUT when they do you had better listen cuz they almost always have something important to say, sometimes its something that seems really small, or unimportant, BUT in time their GODly wisdom is revealed. In my experience, the person who feels compelled to tell you how smart they are or how GODly they are, usually isnt, with wisdom comes the knowledge that bragging is foolish, and they are humble enough to accept when someone comes along who knows just a bit more than they do. When a leader tells you, "I dont know, lets look together to find the answer", you have found a REAL leader.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2006 8:34:58 GMT -5
Re "When a leader tells you, "I dont know, lets look together to find the answer", you have found a REAL leader."
This statement applies in an empirical, secular, liberal democratic society. But this is not the world Jesus or his disciples would ever inhabit.
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Post by selah on Aug 16, 2006 9:02:47 GMT -5
Re "When a leader tells you, "I dont know, lets look together to find the answer", you have found a REAL leader."This statement applies in an empirical, secular, liberal democratic society. But this is not the world Jesus or his disciples would ever inhabit. Hi Bert, I'm not sure I understand you clearly. Are you saying that the disciples would not admit to knowing less than all the answers; that they wouldn't need to search for truth like everyone else? Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2006 9:18:22 GMT -5
Hi Selah. I have not found the statement "I dont know, lets look together to find the answer" in the bible.
A good question to be sure, and its answer would appear quite contradictory.
(deep breath...) Those who preached the gospel were, firstly, first to admit how little they knew. Secondly they were sure about the essential core precepts of the gospel they preached. No prophet I recall came saying he didn't know, and "lets us work together for the answer." There would be no need for him.
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Post by scottishviking on Aug 16, 2006 10:04:25 GMT -5
Re "When a leader tells you, "I dont know, lets look together to find the answer", you have found a REAL leader."This is not generally true in any instance. A good (effective rather than morally good) leader is one who takes decisions based on the information they have then takes responsibility for his / her decision.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2006 10:19:12 GMT -5
SV - we are talking about the preaching of the Gospel here, not some social, scientific, political, economic or ideological doctrine. There were things that Jesus, as being the Son of God, for example, did not know - such as the age of his second coming. But that wasn't what He spoke about. The same goes for Paul, Peter, James and John.
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Post by Zorro on Aug 16, 2006 10:49:21 GMT -5
Secondly they were sure about the essential core precepts of the gospel they preached.
Do you believe this to be true for the workers?
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Post by scottishviking on Aug 16, 2006 13:17:30 GMT -5
true bert, but where do you not recognise jesus in my description ? did he not take descions on the information he had ? did he not take responsibility for those decisions ? even though they took him to crucifixion. was he not a good leader ?
try to look at the very broadest view possible; if things hold true across a wide spectrum; religous, political, socio etc then it is most probably truth. if it only holds true in one narrow definition there may be a problem with it
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Post by Gene on Aug 16, 2006 13:53:12 GMT -5
Bumper asked
I don't know. I do not know who they are, where they are, or even IF they are in Zurich.
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Post by just me on Aug 16, 2006 17:15:49 GMT -5
Re "When a leader tells you, "I dont know, lets look together to find the answer", you have found a REAL leader."This statement applies in an empirical, secular, liberal democratic society. But this is not the world Jesus or his disciples would ever inhabit. Oh really? I guess then they must have taught Jesus everything that THEY knew because if they knew it all, then WHY seek the truth? ?? The WORST kind of leader is the one who insists they KNOW everything, EVEN when you know they dont, even when they are confronted with something they dont know squat about. When confronted with a deep philosiphical relegious question, the person being asked BETTER be prepared to seek the answer, and be prepared to admit they dont know BUT will certianly guide the asker in the search for the answer, anything less is foolish cuz it'll bite em in the hiney sooner or later, sometimes there IS NO direct answer, in that case the leader should be able to show an appreciable amount of scripture to back up their position. Jesus often refered back to OT scriptures in his teachings, which suggests to me that HE knew that HIS teachings would be thouroughly investigated and HE left very little doubt or room for error. So if Jesus, used the OT teachings to back up HIS teaching, what makes you think that any OTHER teacher/leader should KNOW IT ALL? ?
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Post by prue on Aug 16, 2006 18:24:17 GMT -5
Jesus told his disciples there were things they were not to know - he said it wasnt for them to know the times or what would happen to israel - he told peter what is that to you? when peter asked about judas - and jesus did not know when he would come again what bert is saying is that these wonderful men knew what they had to preach - and the spirit could work through them to discern the thoughts and hearts of men
bert tells the story about a worker saying that he didnt understand things called quasars - bert said after the meeting some people were shining a torch into the sky looking for them
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Post by spiderman on Aug 16, 2006 18:44:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure. An apostle had to have seen Jesus, right? I think without a doubt Paul could have claimed to have "encountered Jesus". According to the bible Jesus spoke audibly to Paul, and gave him a mission. I've known workers who I thought were very close to being apostles. I'll just name a few. Ray Miller, William Lewis, Don Cox, and maybe there are more. Humble, wise men every one. I may have disagreed with them on a point here and there, but I truly love and miss these men, (especially Don) Ray was the first worker I heard and I will always love him. William was as brave as a lion and did what he thought was right in the face of MUCH opposition. I will always love him and can't wait to see him again. I believe I will. Don was full of the spirit of Jesus. He loved me for some reason and I knew it from the first time we were together. I long to see him as well. I pray that they will be glad to see me too! When this is all over Jesus will bring us all together. All of us who call on Him and believe in His name and His blood, his sacrifice and all our differences will fade into oblivion. Can't wait for that day either. Spidey
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 6:55:53 GMT -5
To SV You said "try to look at the very broadest view possible; if things hold true across a wide spectrum; religous, political, socio etc then it is most probably truth. if it only holds true in one narrow definition there may be a problem with it"
You may have to be a bit more specific about this. I suspect I could agree with your principles but not your conclusions.
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Post by scottishviking on Aug 17, 2006 7:20:33 GMT -5
bert
ok, lets try a couple of examples: evolution, the gradual change of one thing into another "better" version upon application of some stimuli, appears to be a natural law irrespective of what or where. in the natural world animals and plants become optimised for their environment (eg lions and tigers fill the same place in the food chain, can be bred together but are optimised for different environmental conditions). humans also evolve most (all ?) human developments and inventions over time eg cars become faster as roads improved, more fuel efficient as oil prices rise etc, football teams evelove as more money is available. I would conclude that evolution, as a law, holds true over a wide spectrum therefore it is most probably an absolute truth. On the other hand "children must be sacrificed to god" only really holds true as a law in a very narrow religious aspect; if you are from Babylon about 1000BC and worshiping Baal (unless you are Abraham but that must be OK; its in the bible, isn't it?)
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Post by happy on Aug 17, 2006 7:45:47 GMT -5
Why are the words "disciple" and "apostle" used interchangibly? Even in Webster, it suggests that a disciple is one of the 12. I consider all believers to be disciples. I question modern day apostles. Happy
Main Entry: apos·tle Pronunciation: &-'pä-s&l Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, from apostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send 1 : one sent on a mission: as a : one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul b : the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group 2 a : a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system b : an ardent supporter : ADHERENT 3 : the highest ecclesiastical official in some church organizations 4 : one of a Mormon administrative council of 12 men
Main Entry: dis·ci·ple Pronunciation: di-'sI-p&l Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English discipul & Anglo-French disciple, from Late Latin and Latin; Late Latin discipulus follower of Jesus Christ in his lifetime, from Latin, pupil 1 : one who accepts and assists in spreading the doctrines of another: as a : one of the twelve in the inner circle of Christ's followers according to the Gospel accounts b : a convinced adherent of a school or individual 2 capitalized : a member of the Disciples of Christ founded in the United States in 1809 that holds the Bible alone to be the rule of faith and practice, usually baptizes by immersion, and has a congregational polity synonym see FOLLOWER
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 8:19:41 GMT -5
Some thoughts - yes, there are generalities and specifics, agreed. How do you relate this to the subject of Christianity? Many educated observers of Christianity like to point out how biblical things have deep multicultural roots, ie arks of the covenant were common to many nations, so too were sons of gods. These academics then take the step of presuming that Israel and her God are no different than any other nation and their gods.
a note about evolution: biological evolution, in the form of a species improving itself, may no longer be a valid idea in a general sense. Read our Aussie Charlie Vernon's work on marine biology - he holds there is no such thing as a species, and evolution doesn't improve things generally, it merely alters. But I like Darwin's ideas better!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 8:27:47 GMT -5
Happy, you wrote "I question modern day apostles." I do too. But words are symbols. All of the symbols of the Old Testament were put there, I believe, to provide a picture for the New Testament and those future cultures which would read it, ie the sacrificial lamb, the temple, our high priest, Zion etc..
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Post by selah on Aug 17, 2006 9:11:39 GMT -5
Hi Selah. I have not found the statement "I dont know, lets look together to find the answer" in the bible. A good question to be sure, and its answer would appear quite contradictory. (deep breath...) Those who preached the gospel were, firstly, first to admit how little they knew. Secondly they were sure about the essential core precepts of the gospel they preached. No prophet I recall came saying he didn't know, and "lets us work together for the answer." There would be no need for him. I don't believe that a prophet or an apostle knows it all. They are people just like you and me. An apostle is one who is sent forth with a message. So, God would reveal the message they were to take, but that doesn't mean they knew everything. Someone might ask a question concerning their message that even they didn't fully understand. They were/are human. Prophets as well, were/are just people. The prophet speaks out, proclaims, tells forth the words God gives them to speak. It may or may not tell of future events. Do these people know everything? Of course not. They know what God has asked them to say...and sometimes even that is bewildering to them. The disciples obviously didn't understand everything, since they were asking Jesus questions. Today, it's the very same. Each disciple asks Jesus about the things he does not know. Sometimes someone might ask a question and the answer, even from a prophet or an apostle could easily be, "I don't know; let's look together to find the answer." The answer may be found through prayer, studying the scripture or just allowing God to reveal in His own way. Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2006 9:17:43 GMT -5
Hi Selah, what brings you to this board? Do you see the people here like some kind of loose family?
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