forest
Junior Member
Posts: 143
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Post by forest on Aug 9, 2006 16:54:05 GMT -5
Some European workers were temporarily in US or CA. Does one of You know if one of them helped there to excom. people?
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Post by us too on Aug 9, 2006 18:18:02 GMT -5
I'm only aware of the Canada excom.
Was there one in the US as well?
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Post by lots of problems on Aug 9, 2006 18:39:15 GMT -5
There has been lots of problems in Alaska,Montana,Iowa,Alberta,France
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Post by check this on Aug 9, 2006 18:44:44 GMT -5
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Post by Secret Agent Man on Aug 9, 2006 21:21:46 GMT -5
Some European workers were temporarily in US or CA. Does one of You know if one of them helped there to excom. people? I will tell you about a special group of workers called "erasers". They are from eastern europe and have trained as the 2x2 SWAT team. If a overseer needs them in his field, he calls a certain phone # and they arrive very hush hush and do their dirty business and then go back home. Don't tell anyone about this though. Its not safe for you to know this. This message will self destruct in five seconds............ Pooffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff [size=8]BOOM[/size][/b]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2006 1:09:21 GMT -5
I'm only aware of the Canada excom. Was there one in the US as well? The policy of rejection of 'unsuitable' membership is one of the basics of the 2x2 doctrine. The very founder of the group the turn of the 19th century, was excommunicated -- and since then thousands of folks have, in different ways, been crowded (or forced) out of the group. There were two slightly unusual aspects of the mass excommunications in Alberta. --- because of the extremely high membership numbers in Alberta, the numbers involved in the excommunications was large. -- but Probably the most unique aspect of the Alberta excommunications was that it is so well documented and open to public scrutiny. Otherwise there have been thousands and thousands of different examples of cult rejection of the 'unworthy' through the years -- most of it has gone on in the cover of darkness. (Which is the favorite method in the group.) Edgar Regarding the question of getting workers from Europe to aid in excommunication!! Of course, most fields are capable of excommunication on their own -- but sometimes if they are afraid of the reaction amongst local workers, they will bring in 'higher up' workers to assure people that the excommunications are not just the result of the personalities of local workers -- but that 'God himself' supports them!!
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eurp
Senior Member
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Post by eurp on Aug 10, 2006 1:29:42 GMT -5
"The policy of rejection of 'unsuitable' membership is one of the basics of the 2x2 doctrine."
This is an absurd assertion, made with no backing proof.
"Otherwise there have been thousands and thousands of different examples of cult rejection of the 'unworthy' through the years"
This too a gross exaggeration, like most of the statements by the author.
"ALL", "NONE", "THOUSANDS", "NEVER", etc. Your statements would ring more true if you introduced some reality and left off the wild exaggeration Edgar. There almost always truth in what you say, but dressing it up as you do destroys the credibility.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2006 5:17:58 GMT -5
There is absolutely no exageration in reference to the thousands of cult rejections through the years. The Alberta "extermination of unsuitables" with fallout, quickly adds up to 3 digit numbers. Here in Scandinavia there were over 20 folks either forced or crowded out in the 3 years arround our rejection. These are only two smaller areas of the world in a very short period of time. My dad has suggested that in connection with group condemnation of Edward Cooney back in the earlier 1900s several hundred folks squeezed out of the main line 2x2 group. The Australian split involved several hundred --- I don't know how many were involved in Alaska -- or in the Montana fallout -- -- A large number were moved off the 2x2 membership lists in connection with the aftermath of John Maklitos (sp?) in Greece passing. It is easy to reach 4 digit numbers!!!
However I still believe that the major numbers of rejections have been executed under the cover of darkness. I grew up in a very small town on the prairies in Saskatchewan with one Sunday morning meeting --- and I can quickly count at least 10 people that were either forced, ridiculed or felt crowded out in the period that I grew up. This is only a short period in 2x2 history -- and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of such groups arround the world.
Denial of the enormous scope of the countless internal condemnation policies in their own group is a major point of 2x2 dishonesty. Edgar
It wouldn't surprize me if a person could add up at least a thousand workers alone, explained as 'unsuitable' through the years -- I can think of 25 in our country alone (and this country is a small one)
It is clearly a group that chooses to shoot its weak and wounded!!
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Post by MM on Aug 10, 2006 8:26:16 GMT -5
The 2x2s need to be watched over someone like MM to keep an eye on them and keep them honest
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eurp
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Posts: 290
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Post by eurp on Aug 10, 2006 9:14:13 GMT -5
starts with "There is absolutely no exageration ..."
ends with "It wouldn't surprize me if a person could add up at least a thousand ..."
starts out absolutely, ends up maybe.
Still exaggeration. Thats not t deny there's truth in there, and a serious problem. BUt gross exaggeration doesn't help solve anything.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2006 10:04:24 GMT -5
starts with "There is absolutely no exageration ..." ends with "It wouldn't surprize me if a person could add up at least a thousand ..." starts out absolutely, ends up maybe. Still exaggeration. Thats not t deny there's truth in there, and a serious problem. BUt gross exaggeration doesn't help solve anything. Hi Eurp (RS?), You suggested that a thousand or two examples of anti-Christian contempt and rejection within the 2x2 cult, was an exaggeration -- I have given you the basis I have to conclude that this kind of exclusion and extermination is, and has always been, extremely common throughout the entire 100 years of the groups existance. There are litterally thousands of folks who have been mauled and pushed into the 2x2 ditches through the years. It's easy to come up to volumes with 4 digit numbers. I also have suggested that you, like many others, have grossly underestimated the scope of this ugly aspect of group ideology. -- It is a gross exaggeration to imply any significant moral virtue in the group. I have then suggested that even amongst a much smaller group in the sect (workers)-- there are at least a thousand or two who have been abandoned and declared unsuitable through the years. This is the basis I have for my statement that the 2x2 group seems to have an inbuilt policy of shooting its weak and wounded -- Hardly part of the genuine Christian spirit!!!
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Post by friends never know on Aug 10, 2006 11:30:25 GMT -5
The problem Edgar is many friends are never told anything and remain in the dark concerning there sweet little group
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2006 11:36:12 GMT -5
The problem Edgar is many friends are never told anything and remain in the dark concerning there sweet little group Yes I understand this -- The ordinary honesty expressed in the will to investigate, has been declared by group ideolology to be 'a lack of faith in Gods servants'!! This is a clever method of keeping things in the kind of darkness that their leadership thrives in.
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Post by agree on Aug 10, 2006 11:39:50 GMT -5
The problem Edgar is many friends are never told anything and remain in the dark concerning there sweet little group Yes I understand this -- The ordinary honesty expressed in the will to investigate, has been declared by group ideolology to be 'a lack of faith in Gods servants'!! This is a clever method of keeping things in the kind of darkness that their leadership thrives in. I agree 100 % seems like an impossible situation to right
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eurp
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Posts: 290
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Post by eurp on Aug 10, 2006 12:12:17 GMT -5
Its a good thing to investigate, to ask questions, and to be told truth.
Its not a good thing to take that truth and expand, stretch and build an unreal picture of something worse than it for the sake of getting the message across.
The thought that a "thousand" people have been excommunicated over 100 years needs perspective.
1000 divided by 100 years = 10/year. In a fellowship of perhaps 100,000 now, and perhaps 500,000 since 1880s this is a small percentage, possibly not so different to many other denominations.
I agree its wrong to underestimate the size of this problem. Its equally wrong to overestimate it.
None of the speculation about numbers does any good to those wronged by their harsh treatment. Exaggeration of the facts does neither any good for them, nor for the cause of overcoming the problem. In fact it deteriorates the cause by reducing credibility.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2006 14:23:19 GMT -5
I agree its wrong to underestimate the size of this problem. Its equally wrong to overestimate it. Dear Eurp, It it possible to overestimate the disaster of encouraging and nurturing contempt and rejection of our fellow travelers on the way of life? Edgar
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Post by bonnie unlogged on Aug 10, 2006 14:48:27 GMT -5
Eagar and all. Something has been really heavy on my heart . I quit taking part and now have quit going to meeting although every once in awhile I'll go to support my spouse.
We were what you would call a very hearty in the truth couple even had meeting overseas and occasionally when needed here locally. The workers would almost always be in our home when they were in town. Stay the night etc.
Now, my spouse did not quit going but the workers have quit coming. They have been told by me and my husband they are always welcome. I would never want to hurt my spouse in any way, so would never have said they couldn't come. I welcome the visit.
Whatsup!!!!! As my kids say. I know, I know, this whole scernario does not surprise me just adds more coal to the fire that was started in me almost two years ago. Unfortuantly, it has I think taken it's toll on my spouse as well.
This just makes me want to cry because so many are so caught up in it. Also, I've tried to stay friends with many of the ladies, and there of course seems to be this underlying tension, thats not bad but... I realize that I don't look the same to them, and so I try to accept the situation for how it is.
Who still has a spouse that goes to meeting? What are you dealing with?
Kathy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2006 15:03:59 GMT -5
Hello, Edgar.
The experience of so many though the years that eventually became mine 20 years ago this late spring reminds me of what has been said about recession and depression. When unemployment happens to someone you know, it is merely a recession, but! When it happens to yourself it becomes a depression.
It is with a combination of feelings that I read the denials of those who simply are unwilling to face "reality." Whose "reality?" "God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." My personal experience of the former truth I once knew is one of excommunication, false accusation, libel and slander and otherwise and wide spread lies of others self justifications. Further, since my own experience those twenty years ago, I have indeed learned of the many who have been forced out, put out or placed in untenable circumstances by those who rule.
That old adage continues to prove itself true to me, "those who have the gold, rule." Those who control the purse in that system (as any other) rule by their power and absolute control. For those of us who have experienced what you write of Edgar, we often do come to know of the MANY when others obviously do not. Such people then want names to justify their own beliefs, knowing they will not be specifically related..
For those who doubt this, find older workers lists from your first memories...then research to find out what happened to them. Personally I am certain far more than the attributed "500,000" or whatever number, were rejected, not accepted or in some other way forced from the group and its system. The person who only hears of it happening to someone on rare occasion will likely not agree with what those who have experienced it might relate.
Edgar, while it is true we all have to be cautious about words like never, always, etc, yet that does NOT mean they do not have an appropriate place in the language of expressing our experiences. I do not find you over using the superlatives in light of your experience and knowledge.
Kindest regards to you and yours, looking forward to rejoicing with the redeemed from wherever they come,
Dennis J.
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Post by spiderman on Aug 10, 2006 15:07:21 GMT -5
Its a good thing to investigate, to ask questions, and to be told truth. Its not a good thing to take that truth and expand, stretch and build an unreal picture of something worse than it for the sake of getting the message across. The thought that a "thousand" people have been excommunicated over 100 years needs perspective. 1000 divided by 100 years = 10/year. In a fellowship of perhaps 100,000 now, and perhaps 500,000 since 1880s this is a small percentage, possibly not so different to many other denominations. I agree its wrong to underestimate the size of this problem. Its equally wrong to overestimate it. None of the speculation about numbers does any good to those wronged by their harsh treatment. Exaggeration of the facts does neither any good for them, nor for the cause of overcoming the problem. In fact it deteriorates the cause by reducing credibility. Eurp, If you don't believe it, do some investigation yourself instead of just being a contrarian. I've never found Edgar to be an exaggerator.
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Post by whatever on Aug 10, 2006 15:34:54 GMT -5
Its a good thing to investigate, to ask questions, and to be told truth. Its not a good thing to take that truth and expand, stretch and build an unreal picture of something worse than it for the sake of getting the message across. The thought that a "thousand" people have been excommunicated over 100 years needs perspective. 1000 divided by 100 years = 10/year. In a fellowship of perhaps 100,000 now, and perhaps 500,000 since 1880s this is a small percentage, possibly not so different to many other denominations. I agree its wrong to underestimate the size of this problem. Its equally wrong to overestimate it. None of the speculation about numbers does any good to those wronged by their harsh treatment. Exaggeration of the facts does neither any good for them, nor for the cause of overcoming the problem. In fact it deteriorates the cause by reducing credibility. Eurp, If you don't believe it, do some investigation yourself instead of just being a contrarian. I've never found Edgar to be an exaggerator. edgar isnt an exaggerator.. he is a flat out liar. maybe in his demented version of reality he thinks he is telling the truth.. but for those of us who live in the real world, he is out there. you cant believe a word he says.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2006 15:42:10 GMT -5
"...can't believe a word Edgar says?" Oh yes you can! BTW, such a post as yours tells much about you and how much truth you believe than it discredits Edgar for what he relates. Why would you post so? Rationalization of your own beliefs which do not enclude knowledge of things Edgar posts? I 'spose.
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eurp
Senior Member
Posts: 290
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Post by eurp on Aug 10, 2006 16:11:00 GMT -5
Firstly let me say that you CAN believe a word Edgar says. While he and I have not met, I've known about him for about 17 years or more.
He asked me "It it possible to overestimate the disaster of encouraging and nurturing contempt and rejection of our fellow travelers on the way of life? "
But this question isn't directly relevant to the original topic. However, my answer is "No". By this I actually mean it is possible to overestimate this, but it should NOT be underestimated. It should NOT be trivialised, should not be swept under any carpet.
But to deal with such a proble is not assisted by any exaggeration. Its a big enough problem without exaggeration. It does not need enhancement. The problem with enhancing a problem is the same problem that unrealistic advertising has - its not believed, and then gets ridiculed.
So with respect to the numbers quoted originally I have done some investigation (Spiderman suggests that I haven't without any actual knowledge of what I might have or not done). I still claim that exaggeration does no good.
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forest
Junior Member
Posts: 143
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Post by forest on Aug 10, 2006 16:24:32 GMT -5
sorry sorry to all. Please don't take it personally. Please come back to the title. If someone know about the fact please come on. It's asked in order to inform Europeans who also read here.
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Post by Simple on Aug 10, 2006 18:33:21 GMT -5
Eurp, If you don't believe it, do some investigation yourself instead of just being a contrarian. I've never found Edgar to be an exaggerator. edgar isnt an exaggerator.. he is a flat out liar. maybe in his demented version of reality he thinks he is telling the truth.. but for those of us who live in the real world, he is out there. you cant believe a word he says. Can you be more specific? You are saying alot of nothing sir. Are you aware of your empty declarations? Sounds more like a personal vendetta on your part. If you are done presenting your case against Edgar, we the jury must find him innocent of all charges.
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Post by ex-teenager on Aug 11, 2006 15:55:51 GMT -5
For what it's worth...
I myself have found Edgar to exagerate on occasion.
However in this case he says thousands have been ex-communicated, taking into to consideration, Cooney, Alberta, Victoria and other areas, I would think the figure accurate.
However the area I have grown up in (5 meetings) I have not known of any that 'were either forced, ridiculed or felt crowded out'. There are a few older people (80's) that I'm aware off, however I would have no idea of there circumstances for leaving -probably 60 years ago!
I am aware of about 20 ex-workers (in Ireland), the vast majority leaving of there own wishes and still in fellowship today.
These are my experiences.
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zing
Junior Member
Posts: 121
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Post by zing on Aug 12, 2006 0:16:15 GMT -5
... such a cool thread.... why not open one, which lists the names / nicknames and the 'reasons' or circumstances in which they were 'forced out'...
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