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Post by _ on Aug 9, 2006 16:30:01 GMT -5
What would be the best way to take some of the energy people have on here in the form of btiching and moaning about the fellowship and refocus it into actually making a difference?
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Post by mrleo on Aug 9, 2006 16:37:34 GMT -5
The fact that it is nearly impossible to make a difference to the fellowship when you're outside it is the source of a lot of the...venting...that takes place here. It is frustrating to feel powerless, and that's something that everyone works their way through in their own time and way. So, believe it or not, the venting is making a difference. You may not be able to see it, but it is.
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Post by answer on Aug 9, 2006 16:44:07 GMT -5
Just because you are out doesn't mean you can't make a difference.
All it takes is a little networking and you can have a huge postal or email mailing list.
Write letters.
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Post by Monkey Boy on Aug 9, 2006 16:44:12 GMT -5
The fact that it is nearly impossible to make a difference to the fellowship when you're outside it is the source of a lot of the...venting...that takes place here. It is frustrating to feel powerless, and that's something that everyone works their way through in their own time and way. So, believe it or not, the venting is making a difference. You may not be able to see it, but it is. Captain the relief valve is jammed shut and I think she's gonna blow. Lets go to the TMB and vent....sssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh Those blind workers tricked me Those con artist lied to me Those fools dupted me Yes I feel better now. Just a steady boil.............
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Post by happy on Aug 9, 2006 16:57:03 GMT -5
Isn't the complaining part of the healing? I think it was YOU who told me that a few years ago. I didn't understand it then.
I agree it is good to channel the energy to a positive end, but getting to that point is a process for most people. Happy
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sm
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Post by sm on Aug 9, 2006 17:02:35 GMT -5
It's nearly impossible to make a BIG difference weather you are in, or out of the fellowship, if you try while you are in, you won't be in for long before you're ex'd. And since they basically tell everyone that those who have either left, or been ex'd are bad seed, and liars who want to sabatoge the *friends and workers* salvation, they are taught not to listen. Heck, they even tell the friends to NOT read those letters, AND, to avoid the temptation to go to the internet sites about the *truth*, for fear we'll catch you in our snares and lead you astray lol. So for those of you who are here, who are IN the way, you're er..disobeying the workers For those of us outside, YES, we do feel powerless to do much more than what we are doing, or have done. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, until he's ready. In some cases, they will never be ready. You can talk to your family/friends till you are blue in the face, and it's like hitting your head against a brick wall. They are convinced, that you.. being outside the fellowship are going to hell. OR.. they are afraid to face the truth because of what it means to them, their lives, their fellowship.. And since the friends/workers don't do the Extreme things that some cults do to get the publics eye, like mass suicides, or all of them living in a convent of sorts collecting guns and ammo, Or making marrying underage teens, etc..etc.. They have been allowed to continue their form of brainwashing for years, and years. When that much has been going on for that long, for generations...it's almost impossible to break through that.
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Post by Surprised on Aug 9, 2006 17:47:13 GMT -5
So for those of you who are here, who are IN the way, you're er..disobeying the workers I'm really sorry but no workers ever told me not to look at these sites, if I disobey, than I disobey to God. If I look to it, I have to manage and analize it. What I don't forget is that either your words or the workers words only, never will be bread to me. All that can give me something real is the personal fellowship to the Almighty. Sad that you have only your way to see. I will go on in this fellowship and I don't think that we are all brain washed as long we think and we feel what we have to feel in the 1st place: love to God! I go on this way for many years and if I can rely with some "human" points you point out, I cannot agree with all of it because it's not my experience. If people read the Bible they would also find that they should not judge, so I won't judge you but you're just judging the 2x2's (which I'm part of) all the way. Selfrighteousnes is a danger for everyone. All the best.
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sm
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Post by sm on Aug 9, 2006 18:50:23 GMT -5
So for those of you who are here, who are IN the way, you're er..disobeying the workers I'm really sorry but no workers ever told me not to look at these sites, if I disobey, than I disobey to God. If I look to it, I have to manage and analize it. What I don't forget is that either your words or the workers words only, never will be bread to me. All that can give me something real is the personal fellowship to the Almighty. Sad that you have only your way to see. I will go on in this fellowship and I don't think that we are all brain washed as long we think and we feel what we have to feel in the 1st place: love to God! I go on this way for many years and if I can rely with some "human" points you point out, I cannot agree with all of it because it's not my experience. If people read the Bible they would also find that they should not judge, so I won't judge you but you're just judging the 2x2's (which I'm part of) all the way. Selfrighteousnes is a danger for everyone. All the best. On the contrary...I am expressing what I was TAUGHT by the two by two's themselves. It may not be your experience, and there may be many who have Never been told those things, on the other hand, in this *way* that is supposedly the same all over the world, MANY HAVE been told those things. I will not discount that you've never experienced it, it is likely true in your case, and many others, but you appear to discount the vailidity of my statements, things I was told for many years by the very same ministry. I've heard the workers from the platform tell us to never read those letters, and to stay away from the propaganda on the internet. I've heard the workers warn about staying to close to people who have left, or were ex'd. I've SEEN families/friends shun their supposed loved ones because they decide to no longer *walk in the way* On the other hand I have also seen those who are heartfelt in *the truth*, who's testimonies would move you to tears, and I beleive they are genuine. although I do feel sad for them, because they at least deserve to know the truth about this way they've followed for so long. I don't believe all the people involved in the truth are bad people, I feel bad for them because they have been lied too, and to come to realize that is no less than a shock. It's funny you use the word self righteous.. because by agreeing only with what you've experienced, you feel justified that you are right. I can at least take into account not only MY experience, the experience of both those who've had similar, to those that haven't had even close to the same experience. The thing is this... In realizing there are indeed two sides to a story, and there is TRUTH in BOTH sides, some have experienced what I have, and some have not.. If both sides of the story are true, does that make you more right that me? or vise versa? No. But it also means you can't ignore my experience because it's not your own, and I can't ignore yours, because it's not mine. So if my experience, and others like me, actually happened, And if we were taught things different than you, from the same ministry, if it's ok in one place to have a TV in your home, but not in another, if it's ok to wear your hair down in one place, and not in another, or to visit the internet sites in one area but not in another, If different area's have different rules, and beleifs , in this *way* that is supposed to be the same the world over, and is supposed to have been the same since the time of Christ. Would it not make you question the validity of that way, as a whole? Or perhaps you'll say, the way is perfect, it's those IN the way who aren't perfect. Well in realizing that... you then realize that the workers CAN be , and HAVE been wrong, they Can, and Have DONE wrong. Then you have to realize, it's not just a local thing, But experiences from around the GLOBE, that are posted here. How can that not make you question the validity of all the things you've been taught? Those that walk IN the way, are a reflection OF the way, and that reflection is hazy at best, in many parts of the world. However..when you meet someone regardless of religion, two by two or not, who's faith in GOD, in Jesus is genuine, that reflection, is clear as day. To learn from your own experience/mistakes is one thing, but to learn from the mistakes/experiences of others......a better thing, a smarter thing.
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Post by GuestS on Aug 10, 2006 11:41:12 GMT -5
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Post by Just a Thought on Aug 10, 2006 14:19:35 GMT -5
The Truth (relatively speaking) is a very young religion. In just the 30 years I have observed the friends and workers (I have many family members in the Truth including one in the work) it seems to me like the church has changed in some ways in just that little time. (At least from my pov).
Many denominations change their rules & doctrines in order to survive. I believe the Truth will have to do this and is doing this as well.
I sometimes envision a spit within the church where you have the original conservative unwritten doctrine Truth and a more evangelical type of Truth that will be less legalistic and emphasize grace a little more than work with an official doctrine. I believe both branches of the church will always keep its signature churches in the home. I have always enjoyed that part when ever I attend a meeting.
This would also serve as a nice alternative for folks who have been excommunicated or may not feel welcome in the conservative branch of the church. There are different braches of many denominations why should the Truth be any different?
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Post by Surprised on Aug 10, 2006 16:08:09 GMT -5
I'm really sorry but no workers ever told me not to look at these sites, if I disobey, than I disobey to God. If I look to it, I have to manage and analize it. What I don't forget is that either your words or the workers words only, never will be bread to me. All that can give me something real is the personal fellowship to the Almighty. Sad that you have only your way to see. I will go on in this fellowship and I don't think that we are all brain washed as long we think and we feel what we have to feel in the 1st place: love to God! I go on this way for many years and if I can rely with some "human" points you point out, I cannot agree with all of it because it's not my experience. If people read the Bible they would also find that they should not judge, so I won't judge you but you're just judging the 2x2's (which I'm part of) all the way. Selfrighteousnes is a danger for everyone. All the best. On the contrary...I am expressing what I was TAUGHT by the two by two's themselves. It may not be your experience, and there may be many who have Never been told those things, on the other hand, in this *way* that is supposedly the same all over the world, MANY HAVE been told those things. I will not discount that you've never experienced it, it is likely true in your case, and many others, but you appear to discount the vailidity of my statements, things I was told for many years by the very same ministry. I've heard the workers from the platform tell us to never read those letters, and to stay away from the propaganda on the internet. I've heard the workers warn about staying to close to people who have left, or were ex'd. I've SEEN families/friends shun their supposed loved ones because they decide to no longer *walk in the way* On the other hand I have also seen those who are heartfelt in *the truth*, who's testimonies would move you to tears, and I beleive they are genuine. although I do feel sad for them, because they at least deserve to know the truth about this way they've followed for so long. I don't believe all the people involved in the truth are bad people, I feel bad for them because they have been lied too, and to come to realize that is no less than a shock. It's funny you use the word self righteous.. because by agreeing only with what you've experienced, you feel justified that you are right. I can at least take into account not only MY experience, the experience of both those who've had similar, to those that haven't had even close to the same experience. The thing is this... In realizing there are indeed two sides to a story, and there is TRUTH in BOTH sides, some have experienced what I have, and some have not.. If both sides of the story are true, does that make you more right that me? or vise versa? No. But it also means you can't ignore my experience because it's not your own, and I can't ignore yours, because it's not mine. So if my experience, and others like me, actually happened, And if we were taught things different than you, from the same ministry, if it's ok in one place to have a TV in your home, but not in another, if it's ok to wear your hair down in one place, and not in another, or to visit the internet sites in one area but not in another, If different area's have different rules, and beleifs , in this *way* that is supposed to be the same the world over, and is supposed to have been the same since the time of Christ. Would it not make you question the validity of that way, as a whole? Or perhaps you'll say, the way is perfect, it's those IN the way who aren't perfect. Well in realizing that... you then realize that the workers CAN be , and HAVE been wrong, they Can, and Have DONE wrong. Then you have to realize, it's not just a local thing, But experiences from around the GLOBE, that are posted here. How can that not make you question the validity of all the things you've been taught? Those that walk IN the way, are a reflection OF the way, and that reflection is hazy at best, in many parts of the world. However..when you meet someone regardless of religion, two by two or not, who's faith in GOD, in Jesus is genuine, that reflection, is clear as day. To learn from your own experience/mistakes is one thing, but to learn from the mistakes/experiences of others......a better thing, a smarter thing. Hi, I didn't say that only my experience is ok and other's experience has no meaning. English is not my language, so I guess you didn't understand all I wanted to say. In a short way I said that it's not human reasoning that will bring me somewere (reasoning of this board or reasonings of the workers both) but guidance from above only. I don't know your experience. I grew up in a home were Mom was professing and Dad not. My parents divorced. I never made my choice to please anyone and stopped going to meetings with my Mom at age 15. My Mom died when I was 20. She was my best friend, not only a Mom, she was young... died of a sickness. I made my choice in my heart at her funeral because God talked to me personally at THAT meeting. I then made openly my choice to the following convention. This was 17 years ago. I married a professing young boy. We adopted 2 children. We are in this way. There are rules that I think useless (hair, pants, blablabla), I agree with that part. I told the elder worker that I can't say that I believe that only people on this way will be saved. We (my husband and I) do what we feel right and have good fellowship. We respect workers and friends, to me no one is a god on this Earth, only God. If I do wrong, I will have to report this to God. So my experience is an experience with God first and the friends and workers, not the other way around. About the Internet, I've talked to a worker and he told me, if you need to go and look. What was told on the platform was: if people talk about the beginning and this man that is mentioned lately (Irvine) than what does that matter in your experience? You accepted the words of Jesus not the words of a man. The beginning is Jesus. So this appeals to me. God talked to me, not Mr. Irvine. I know that workers or friends or myself do wrong. We are human's!!! So what? We need God, here in Europe, there in the USA (were I leaved 1 year while I just professed) and in all the countries I had the chance to travel. The way is not a way of tradition first of all, it is the way of LOVE! If you have that LOVE than you have it and will love people in or out of the Truth the way you should. Jesus loved Juda too, even if he was a sinner. Anyway, things are changing. Professing people are not as strict as they were when I was a child. I had a view of the world's offerings, there is nothing that I really miss because it has just a taste of short pleasure. I love music, I listen to music. A movie every once in a while, is my problem. All those things leave me with a slight pleasure but they have nothing to do with what my God gives to me. And about rules, do you know a group or religion without rules?? I live in a Catholic area, they have more rules then you could think! What I know is that I met wonderful people in this fellowship, outside too but there is a diffent goal. If you will answer I will read but it will probably be my last reading for a long while here. I know what I believe and have enough to do with that. All the best to you in the way you chose.
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 13:41:57 GMT -5
Make a difference in what context?
Are you going to move people in large numbers? Of course not…
Can you directly assist people one by one to make a difference? Of course…
Structures are built brick by brick… not just by themselves…
Correct… however it is a fabrication to believe we are powerless…
The insistent btiching/”venting” I speak of does make a difference… so yes… you are right. However, that difference is not positive, but negative. A good deal of professing people who stumble across this site are instantly turned off by such btiching/”venting”and our ability to reach them is directly hampered…
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Posts: 71
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 13:48:36 GMT -5
Isn't the complaining part of the healing? I think it was YOU who told me that a few years ago. I didn't understand it then. I agree it is good to channel the energy to a positive end, but getting to that point is a process for most people. Happy, If you review your 1500+ posts on this board, none of them contain the btiching I speak of... Complaining is one thing... unrelenting whining pushes those away we most need to reach out to... I think there is a mindset to continue the gap instead of reaching out, because it helps some to justify their self-righteous nitpicking and criticism towards a system/people that they feel wounded/injured by… There’s a certain kind of ‘warmth” found in wallowing in despair that some seem to revel in on this board…
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 13:51:09 GMT -5
Big?
Who said anything about big?
Overnight success should not be our goal, but rather a long-term outlook with small victories along the way…
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Post by mrleo on Aug 11, 2006 13:58:55 GMT -5
Well, if you're outside the fellowship, it is likely that you may have no contact whatsoever with those in. It may be likely that in some very important ways what you think and do no longer matters to those still in because they can't afford to let it matter without compromising their status of being in.
Again, this depends on individual circumstances. In some cases, you may be able to directly assist someone; in other cases, you may literally not be able to get within shouting distance of them.
It can be a fabrication to believe we are powerless. After all, if nothing else there is the power of prayer for those who believe in it. I think we should always be as open as possible to the possibility of helping/influencing others in a positive way, but we also have to acknowledge practical limitations. You can lead a horse to water...
People who stumble across this site may or may not be turned off by the venting. They may see it and say to themselves, "Hey, that's happened to me too, but I never realized I had a right to feel angry about it before!" We can't control anyone else's reactions. If people are turned off or judge the entire forum as useless because of one aspect of it, they're probably not ready to see how complex it actually is.
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Post by fix yourself on Aug 11, 2006 14:02:02 GMT -5
Anyone who will look to this Board or any of these sites for "help" must be in the same "mess" that most here are in. Only God can make a difference in anyone's life and that is only if we LET HIM.
You can try to blame the 2X2 s for your your "so-called problems" but in fact you will have these problems whether or not you are/were a part of the "system".
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 14:21:51 GMT -5
Maybe in your experience… There are always exceptions to the rules… brick by brick my friend… brick by brick… Most of the “assistance” I have seen has been online… not in person… To many who don’t know that there is water, leading them to it can quite possibly be very helpful… even if it takes them years to drink it or if they only take a sip… The overwhelming number of professing people I’ve had contact with were very turned off when they saw this site due in great part to its content I’m referring to…
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2006 14:23:23 GMT -5
Define help…
These sites ‘helped’ me greatly…
Since many of these problems are due to the system, your statement is incorrect…
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Post by mrleo on Aug 11, 2006 15:29:29 GMT -5
I don't doubt that what you say is true--that a number of 2x2s are turned off by what they find here--but in my experience, 2x2s are taught to see self-expression and disagreement (even mild disagreement) or what they might see as conflict as bad things, something to be avoided, behavior that people with the "right spirit" don't engage in or go near.
So, in my opinion, if they're coming here and then running away because they see too much negativity, that's unfortunate, but it's their choice. A message board, like many things in life, is what you make it.
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Post by 185WHX1 on Aug 11, 2006 15:36:53 GMT -5
I don't doubt that what you say is true--that a number of 2x2s are turned off by what they find here--but in my experience, 2x2s are taught to see self-expression and disagreement (even mild disagreement) or what they might see as conflict as bad things, something to be avoided, behavior that people with the "right spirit" don't engage in or go near. So, in my opinion, if they're coming here and then running away because they see too much negativity, that's unfortunate, but it's their choice. A message board, like many things in life, is what you make it. oh ya.. pple are stupid for leaving and not staying in here dwelling in the negative? what kind of pathetic statement is that? you know most pple leave? because its all negative here. more people would listen if you said, hey the 2x2s arent right.. but here is something that is. but you dont have that.. every little complaint lodged against the 2x2 group can be applied to any other religion.. and the ones that cant, you can find a myriad of other problems. so you are a like a conspiracy theorist.. telling pple they are wrong but unable to prove it.
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Post by Gene on Aug 11, 2006 16:02:48 GMT -5
I don't doubt that what you say is true--that a number of 2x2s are turned off by what they find here--but in my experience, 2x2s are taught to see self-expression and disagreement (even mild disagreement) or what they might see as conflict as bad things, something to be avoided, behavior that people with the "right spirit" don't engage in or go near. So, in my opinion, if they're coming here and then running away because they see too much negativity, that's unfortunate, but it's their choice. A message board, like many things in life, is what you make it. oh ya.. pple are stupid for leaving and not staying in here dwelling in the negative? what kind of pathetic statement is that? you know most pple leave? because its all negative here. more people would listen if you said, hey the 2x2s arent right.. but here is something that is. but you dont have that.. every little complaint lodged against the 2x2 group can be applied to any other religion.. and the ones that cant, you can find a myriad of other problems. so you are a like a conspiracy theorist.. telling pple they are wrong but unable to prove it. You’re right, 185whx1 — so much of what we see on this board is negative. It’s posts like yours – virtually ALL of them, that lift my spirits and brighten my day. Your pleasant, friendly spirit and obvious love for your fellow man is an inspiration and a delight to behold. I think it is simply fabulous that you, free and generous spirit that you are, share the joy of your life with others so freely. That song comes to mind... You Light Up My Life!
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Post by Zorro on Aug 11, 2006 16:31:42 GMT -5
Gene, You just made my day.....that was good stuff. You light up my life.....can't.....stop......laughing.
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