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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 7, 2006 21:50:27 GMT -5
FYI, I just typed this letter--it hasn't ever been "published." I'll be adding it to the collection on TTT soon. It gives a little history as to how he viewed his life's work.
Wm Irvine’s Letter to Mr. Thorp Seattle, Wash. (An X-Cleric) October 16, 1934 PO Box 696 Jerusalem, Palestine
My Dear Thorp:
Thanks for yours. Can you imagine anyone getting free from Babylonian traditions without a struggle. It has been 41 years struggle to be where and as I am, so I am glad it has begun for you, and I can make it easier for you. I was brought up a Presbyterian, converted on my 30th birthday when the battle began—whether I would believe in Jesus, and live by what He revealed, said and did, or follow the traditions of my fathers, and the many traditional “say and do not” methods I found ready to swallow me up. Then for some years I thought to fish in the herring barrel called churches, to find out how impossible it was to do any work that would honour Him by doing God’s work in His way and manner of life.
For 14 years I worked outside all religious connection and gathered many out and around Him, and my attempt to do as the Acts and Apostles taught, only to find—as did Paul, that false Apostles and Prophets would try to get power to lead the so-called churches I had formed spiritually, under their power. In 1914 I found this case to be His method, though I did not understand it. I had many converts in G. Britain, Ireland, U.S.A., Canada, New Zealand, Australia and S. Africa, which I regard as the 7 Churches of Asia—for they were the work of one man—Paul, and so it made me feel that my work might be the 7 Churches of today, or in 1914, tho I never had any idea of such until it became clear and simple by His Spirit. These 7 churches are the work of the Man He chose to be His Servant in Revelation days.
I listened to all sorts of people and went to all sorts of places from 1914 to 1918, and found nothing but the old hypocrisy of saying and doing not, every man full of his own thoughts and ways, seeking a crowd and a crust. Then God began to open Revelation, and I began to give it to others what I got, and since then the whole Book became simple and very easy to understand we were in the Judgment period, and the war was the sign. Rev. 8 is the war chapter when 4 Angels sounded the various happenings. Rev. 9:1-10 ver. Gives us the Bolshivism of the world, and now we look for the great war between East and West, which may start any day. But with it will come John from Heaven to be my Co-witness (Rev. 10 – 11 – 12 chapters) in Jerusalem for the whole world, around whom will gather the Woman and 144,000 from every corner of the earth, not Jews in the ordinary sense, but with marks Abram and his seed always had, ears and ears to hear and obey.
God is sealing from all over the world today, in revealing the devil-possessed Babylon’s condition which covers the whole organized Religious, Political and Educational world, while Labour, Socialist and Bolshi is being organized against them to destroy them as in end of Rev. 17 ch. What you say re 144,000 in Rev 14—these not defiled with women, refers to them not having fellowship with the Babylonian lady, but following the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. lady and all abominations refers to those who take hire for preaching, the thieves and robbers of John 10—who climb up some other way, rather than enter by the door as did Jesus and all the true Apostles. Every kind of fool presumptuously reads the Acts and tried to imitate what’s there. This is the Devil’s and Satan’s way of hindering the Revelation Message in Omega. The Alpha work of Jesus finished in 1914. We have the same Jesus in Rev. 1 ch. But how different in His Alpha Mercy to His own who hear and obey the Readers Revelation Message. “Blessed is he that readeth and they who hear and obey the words of this prophecy, for the time is at hand,” shows it was for the Judgment period.
Rev. 22 shows that to add to or take from is fatal. Blessed is he that reads and they who hear and keep. Leaves all others cursed and abandoned by the Spirit of God. So it’s a great day of Salvation and Damnation.
In the Harvest you find no mention of Baptism, Breaking of Bread, only the fellowship of Mal. 3 and results in Mal. 4. The Oven being heated for the burning up of the proud and wicked doers, while those who Fear the Lord, speak often one to another, will come forth like calves of the stall, to tread under their feet the wicked seed. WICKED is never applied to sinners, but always to religious people who corrupt His Name and Mercy, Matt. 23 marks. These are the seed of the Serpent, from Garden of Eden who fill the world full of Knowledge of Good and Evil, or give Scriptures but not the Spirit, and so are false prophets and false professors of every sort mentionable.
Behold, He cometh with clouds of every sort, as in Matt. 24, Rev. 1:7—Every eye shall see Him and every one that were and are piercing kindred of the earth, shall wail because of Him.
People who look for Rapture and the Lord to come before Revelations is fulfilled are deluded as in II Thes. 2—The Lord will not come except there be a falling away which is during the 3-1/2 years witness of the Two as in Rev. 11 and the Man of Sin be revealed, as in Rev. 13. Rapture takes place after the 1,000 years and general Resurrection, Rev. 20 is finished. So shall they be forever with the Lord. Unregenerate people today are all back 1900 years to Pentecost, or 1,000 years too early for Rapture.
Read Isa. 55 and Rev. 22—The Living Waters from the Throne, is the Message from Revelation by the Reader, the Overcomer to whom the 7 Promises are given, which is the reward for the Reader, and 7-fold Promises given to those who hear and obey what the Spirit saith to the Churches. Those who fail to hear in the Churches are left to perish in Babylon.
You will find it good to get and keep in touch with those who have been hearing for years and can give you letters to read, for we have been slowly learning what’s written by the Spirit. You need have no fears, hear all you can, read all you can, witness all you can, and the more Satan hinders you and harasses, the surer will His Spirit give you wisdom and understanding. You need have no fears, for Psalms 91 is for those who hear and find shelter under His wings.
My Love to you,
Wm Irvine
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_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by _ on Aug 7, 2006 23:58:10 GMT -5
what is your take?
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Post by studylearning on Aug 8, 2006 3:01:19 GMT -5
My take on this letter leads me to believe this man was delusional and suffered from very serious visions of self grandeur. He was wrong in his interpretations of scripture and his thoughts of being one of the two witnesses.
As I noted in my last post to my thread "Now My Story Time is Right", the link of false teaching has led to rejection of all others through WI. I hope all in the fellowship F&W study the background of their mission and really learn the history.
This letter if true supports all contentions about the false teachings. I say if true simply because I have not seen the original. I have no doubt it is valid as I have researched many documents listed on the TTT sight and found them valid.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 8, 2006 12:44:32 GMT -5
"Every kind of fool presumptuously reads the Acts and tried to imitate what’s there. "
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Post by GuestS on Aug 8, 2006 14:03:56 GMT -5
Cherie,
How is it that you have William Irvine letters in your possession? I don't doubt their authenticity....I'm just curious how you found them? Thank you for your COUNTLESS hours of research and then making the info available on your web-site and here.
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Post by keeped track on Aug 8, 2006 14:50:13 GMT -5
We can be glad a few folks like Cherie have keeped track of things
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eurp
Senior Member
Posts: 290
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Post by eurp on Aug 8, 2006 14:55:59 GMT -5
"We can be glad a few folks like Cherie have keeped track of things "
Yes, Lloyd we can. (pst: the word is "kept")
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 8, 2006 15:47:19 GMT -5
RE: How is it that you have William Irvine letters in your possession? I don't doubt their authenticity....I'm just curious how you found them?
Well, I coveted them for awhile before I got my hands on any of them. I first found out the Omega/Message People even existed in 1993, and that they all owned personal collections of WmI's letters.
I obtained copies of the letters from (4) sources. (1st) an ex-2x2, a California lady, called me up one day and said her friend's friend had this collection of letters--and offered to copy them for me. I gladly supplied the means for her to do so. (2) An ex-Message person, Lew Fountain of BC Canada, donated his personal collection to me; he also gave me a collection of letters written by Omega followers to fellow-followers. Some of his perspectives are on TTT. (3) The first Omega person I came in contact with provided me with many and also with what they call the "mimeographs". (copies in that purple ink like they used to reproduce our test papers at school --some of us older ones will recall those) Some of her friends have also provided me with a few copies. (4) Last year, RIS purchased a set of books of his letters from a source who contacted all of us with websites on WmI, and RIS and TTT share information. This source had gotten them from the attic of someone who had died, and set about marketing them.
Several wonderful volunteers typed them up so I could publish them on TTT.
Thank you for your interest. I'm so glad the info on TTT has been beneficial to many. CK
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Post by physical book on Aug 8, 2006 16:27:38 GMT -5
You are going to put these letters of William irvine in a physical copy are you Cherie
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Post by spiderman on Aug 8, 2006 17:08:17 GMT -5
thank you Cherie, that is very interesting!
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 8, 2006 17:21:27 GMT -5
RE: You are going to put these letters of William irvine in a physical copy are you?
***I have no plans to do so. It would be nice if they were on CD that could be distributed. Any takers?
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Post by letters on Aug 10, 2006 8:51:09 GMT -5
Post all W.I letters on your sight has a save to my pictures just like the photos you have on your site that way anyone can very easily save them and put them on a disk I for one could do it quit easily
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 10, 2006 10:58:10 GMT -5
400 plus of WmI's letters are already re-typed on TTT and have been for a long time. Many of the copies from which they were typed are dim and are typed on onion skin paper and would not copy well as a photo. home.earthlink.net/%7Etruth444/WmILetters/index-WmILet.html#CollectionI do not plan to type all the letters I have and place them on TTT -as many say much the same thing - but are just written to a different follower. When I run across a letter with content that is new or unusual, I add these to the ones on TTT. It is my intention to place on TTT all WmI's letters that I reference in my book. CK
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 10, 2006 11:02:18 GMT -5
Here's some history about Irvine's letter writing found in Chapter 11 of my WmI Book:
"From 1918 until his death in 1947, after Revelation began to open up to him, Irvine wrote innumerable letters to his friends and inquirers and continued his letter-writing up until one year before his death in 1947, at the age of 84. He sent letters to those who indicated an interest in his beliefs and progressive revelation, and the source of the quotes by Wm Irvine found in this book are taken from copies of these letters. His letters went to his followers who were spread all over the world; to the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, USA and South Africa.
"…To have a few in Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand, California, West and East Canada is quite interesting and there may be a few in Eastern U.S.A., though I don't know of any. But clearly Thyatira is the Pacific coast and now we can wait patiently and see the results there and also in the churches in general or The Testimony." (September 3, 1930 Letter to Edwards) The oldest letter to be found so far written by Wm Irvine is dated January 17, 1919 and is addressed to Hon. Lord Northcliffe. Many of his letters were addressed to William (Willie) Edwards, one of the first two Omega Message followers, the other being Bob Skerritt. Both had been 2x2 workers. The last letter known to the author written by Wm. Irvine is dated June 13, 1946, addressed to Ackersons in Vallejo, California. Irvine sometimes enclosed his photograph, and many of his followers have copies of photos of him. Today, no one follower has all of Irvine’s letters in their possession, but most followers have a good number of letters in their private collections, which could fill several notebooks. Most of Irvine's original letters were hand written, using a fountain pen, and were carefully preserved, copied, typed and distributed to other followers. Through the years, his letters have been typed and copied again and again and have been handed down through generations. Irvine encouraged this practice. Since there is no single letter that gives the entire Omega Message, it must be assimilated from reading many of his letters. There is no central bank of Irvine’s letters, nor are they to be found on a website hosted by his followers. They have been copied and recopied. “On this trip we brought along Mr. Irvine’s original letters to us from 1925-35, and John and I have been retyping them, with wide margins to put in book form…and have enjoyed it so much, for we are more able now to value and understand what he has written.” (Anna Edwards Let to Fountains 8/8/38*)
The lack of public distribution is intentional, as Wm. Irvine firmly believed the Omega Message should be shared through individual contact, as Jesus and the Disciples gave the Message of their day. His followers have no printed material nor hymnal. Followers of William Irvine do not accept monetary compensation for supplying letters to interested parties. A number of his letters are reprinted and may be read on the Telling The Truth (TTT) website.
Current Omega followers keep their own files of letters and at their discretion, share them with others: “If you are hungry and thirsty for the Truth of God, there are many there who can help. They have copies of most of the letters I have written from here [Jerusalem] these past 26 years, so they can meet all your needs and give you help to understand what’s written in [the] Book and my letters.” (October 23, 1944 Letter to McDonald and Gruber) He believed his letters were the subject of Rev. 22:2: “The tree in Psalms 1 becomes the Tree of Life in Rev. 22, and twelve manner of fruits has been MY LETTERS these 26-1/2 yrs.” (April 11, 1946 Letter to Ida Newby)
When followers are witnessing to prospective converts, they prefer them to read the letters Irvine wrote from 1940 to 1945 first, because by that time, he had received most or all of the Revelation Program. "Naturally, we spend more time on the later letters, or specially since 'trimming' started. Some of what Mr. Irvine read 10 years ago, he may see clearer today, so we need to go by what the Spirit has given him, as the vision has become clearer. When he went to Jerusalem, he did not see that his friends would come there too." (March 13, 1939 Letter from Rose Edwards to Fountains). They have put together a collection containing 20 letters, especially for Beginners: "The Beginner Book." These 20 letters are printed in the Telling The Truth Collection of Letters by Wm Irvine.
Message People do not freely distribute Irvine's letters to outsiders, because they don't believe in "casting pearls before swine." Irvine wrote: “So never trouble people with these things unless they show appreciation of what you have to say." (August 1, 1924 Letter to Fladungs). Taking care not to give their enemies ammunition against them, they parcel out information in bits and pieces to prospective converts, until they show signs that they believe in Wm Irvine and his Omega Message. Irvine's understanding was progressive--in other word, he changed his mind about or added to some of his prophesies. While some view this as inconsistent, his followers look upon it as Irvine's "human" side. It is a test of faith for the Message followers to overlook any inconsistencies, and they don't trust most outsiders to understand this practice. A former Omega follower wrote: "I remember adults saying 'it's not a beginner's letter,' meaning someone who doesn't already have belief in Wm. Irvine would get tripped by the inconsistency. Especially, where he gave exact dates things would happen, but didn't. They said it was because his 'human side' became over-zealous wanting God's plan to work. Therefore, it wasn't actually an incorrect prophecy."
Sometime in the 1960's, a Message follower named Orris Mills, asked some of the other followers to send him a list of the letters written by Irvine that they gave out most frequently to interested parties. From this list Mr. Mills, a printer by occupation, put together a large collection of letters. This collection is sometimes used today as a hand-out when someone expresses interest in reading Irvine's letters.
Some letters are called “The Mimeographs.” These letters were typed from Irvine's original letters onto stencils and run off on a mimeograph machine. (This was the method used before copiers were invented, for reproducing large quantities of the same page.) The Mimeographs were the “primer” for many who have accepted the Omega Message, along with a current follower who "brought me along” in the Message. The Mimeographs letters, along with other letters from private collections are reprinted in date order in the TTT Collection of Letters by Wm Irvine.
In 1938, Irvine began to send one letter to "Edwards & Co." (Company) every 7-10 days, and Willie Edwards, one of his followers made copies and distributed the letter to numerous hearty followers, who in turn copied/typed and distributed it on to people on their list, along with cover letters, who distributed them to people on their list, etc. (W. Edwards Letter to Ackersons 3/4/43*). Irvine was 75 years old by this time, and it made it easier on him to not handwrite so many personal letters: “In 1938, I felt it was better to write one letter for all and entrusted W. Edwards to circulate it, which proved useful in one sense, for it saved me; for it was hard at 75 to do what I had been doing.” (November 26, 1945 Letter to Madeline Dunbar)
“I noticed my personal letters were being used wrongly so I allowed W. Edwards to get my letters and send copies to all who were interested, which he did reasonably well” (March 3, 1944 Letter to Nobles)
“I don’t write many personal letters now because I found some used them for their own purposes. I write one to W. Edwards for U.S.A. & Canada. He copies and files and sends to those who value the help we can give – so one to New Zealand and one to Australia. All get the same chance.” (December 28, 1942 Letter to Pages)
In 1938, at Irvine's suggestion, Willie and Rose Edwards began to travel and meet with other Omega followers and their invitees in the USA and Canada.
“How many there were in California who had been reading Mr. Irvine’s letters for 20 years, but they never truly understood them until the Spirit sealed and sent Willie and Rose to them, and the spoken word showed them where they were in God’s sight…” (Minnie Skerritt's Letter to Denver Folks All, Nov. 1938*) At this time, Rose was around 50 years old, and Willie was probably about 10 years older than Rose. Likely, he had retired, as they did not seem to have to schedule around employment. From comments in their letters, they seemed to be constantly on the road, explaining Wm. Irvine's letters and thoughts. Omega followers took copious notes and typed them up and passed them around to other followers in letters. Wm Irvine wrote of Edwards: "My heart is glad today to see that they are able to supply what I often felt was beyond the power of my pen…” (Wm Irvine's Letter to Ritzmans, 2/13/40*)
Willie Edwards was accepted as Irvine's right-hand man, and the followers looked up to him and his wife, who heartily gave herself to this ministry, and also to Minnie Skerritt. "How foolish for people to fail to see that they can’t be disloyal to Willie (Edwards) without it being the same to Mr. Irvine and Him. How like Paul, Willie was in being a shepherd protecting the flock…” (Ackersons Letter to Readers, Nov. 24, 1942*).
Rarely, was there a ever a letter from the Edwards that they didn't mention some Omega follower(s) who had recently visited them at one or the other of their two homes; one was "on the Hill" located between Vallejo and Santa Rosa, California and the other in Phoenix, AZ. A follower wrote: "...or as some of us said, even after Mr. Irvine’s letters, we wouldn’t of understood without Edwards to show us.” Another grateful follower wrote: "so we are more and more thankful for Willie and Rose's life to help us and being able and willing to guide us in all that was so utterly impossible to understand by our own reading of Book and letters."
Edwards would send a cover letter to those who distributed Irvine's letters for him to other followers, sometimes addressed to "Our Dear Friends in Wm Irvine." He often referred to Irvine as their "Our Leader." “…surely it would make us tremble if we didn’t have a Leader and Commander whose every word is our law and guide.” Edwards referred to Wm. Irvine's letters using several reverent terms:
Nothing so important as to digest well all the late letters contain as they come from the Throne." (W. Edwards Letter to Mitchells and Popes, 11/18/42).
“We have the pleasure of forwarding to you another feast, as two letters arrived yesterday.” (W. Edwards' Letter to Schulzes 4/24/41)
“We were glad to get your letter and enclosed from His “Sent Angel” which always is meat in due season” (Rose Edwards Letter to Balls 8/5/36)
“…we are enclosing a few of the Prophet’s late letters…” (W. Edwards' Letter to Balls 11/6/37)
“…for if we believe he (Wm Irvine) has the mind of God, then it is only right that we take his words a voice from Heaven…” (W. Edwards' Letter to Minnie Skerritt, 9/4/42)
“I expect of all the letters he has ever written, there have been none so rich and full as these late letters, and it would seem as if he could see from where he is, right into the hearts and lives of all, because of what he writes being so appropriate, and we have likened his letters to those in the Book that were written by Paul, Peter and John, just before the end.”
One follower referred in a letter to the two wisest men in world: Solomon and William Irvine.
The recipients were encouraged give the letters far more than just a casual or cursory reading. This thought was repeated over and over again: “…as Willie was saying to some who were here, ‘It would take a good 6 months to read and digest all that is in that letter,’ for it isn’t just the reading of the letter, but also all the references he gives, and then looking up cross references so as to become more familiar with the Book, and have it written on our hearts, so that at all times we are prepared and ready to open our mouths to all we come in contact with." (Madeline Edwards' Letter to Monroes 2/15/43*).
They need was stressed to write letters to other Omega followers, and their sincerity and heartiness were judged by the volume and depth of their correspondence, and also by how much witnessing they did to outsiders.
The first and last paragraphs of Irvine’s letters were often personal messages. He used very little punctuation, underlined for emphasis and often used extremely long sentences. He used the European style of date, (Day, Month, Year). Typed copies of his letters usually have added punctuation and paragraphs to make them easier to read. His letters contain very few personal details about himself and his daily life. He sometimes wrote on the back of a letter sent to him by another correspondent, so the recipient received two letters to read (April 24, 1945 Letter to Laughlins; April 24, 1945 Letter to Pages).
A present-day California Omega follower, Wendell Rideout, wrote the author regarding his beliefs about the timing and purpose of the inventions of pens, typewriters and computers: "I can refer you to Ezekiel 9:2 and 9:10, which refers to the man with the 'writers inkhorn at his right side.' This is a definite reference to the prophet for the last days. When William (whom I call Wm.) Irvine was born, quills were still in use... Personally, I believe that God allowed man to invent the fountain pen specifically so that William would fulfill the prophecy of Ezekiel 9:2 and 9:10. He did have to 'dip' his pen in the inkwell...I also believe (there is no letter reference that I know of, nor a scriptural reference) that God allowed the portable typewriter to be invented, specifically for those who followed William from 1914 through the 1940's and 1950's, that they might be able to copy William's letters, and give a few to those who had truly heard and wanted to find out more. And now, I believe the computer was allowed by God for the latter day followers of William - simply because the the computer is faster, and can store a lot of information that doesn't have to be redone, and that the time is so very short before these things begin."
His followers believe Wm. Irvine was the greatest prophet this world has ever known. Some even named their children after him; “Irvina Kerr” (daughter of George Kerr, the son of Joe and Sarah Kerr); a boy named John Irvine Barnes. James and Ina Hill named one of their sons, William Irvine Hill, born September 6, 1906 in California (See: James & Ina Hill Clann Edited by Richard R. Hanson).
“Thanks for your letter and the Baby and the name, which I hope may do as much for your home as it has done for me and Mrs. W. Loitz, for it was the first name I got…It was a surprise to me when I had heard they had called their boy William Irvine Loitz…But the naming of their baby after me caused them to find out who were my friends and enemies among their own people..." (Wm Irvine's Letter to Harry and Mary Carson, October 27, 1927 ), (Wm. Irvine's Letter to Skerritts, March 24, 1923) Note: His namesake, Wm Irvine Loitz, did not follow the Omega Message.
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todd
Senior Member
Posts: 270
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Post by todd on Nov 7, 2006 19:58:13 GMT -5
I AM VERY UPSET WHEN I WAS GROWING UP AND UNTIL LATER YEARS WHEN I GOT A COMMUTER I NEVER HEARD OF THIS MAN- WHATS THE DEAL- THE IDEA- YOU COULD upset SOMEONES FAITH WITH ALL THIS NONSENSE. I JUST couldnt help my saragasm or how ever you smell it.
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Post by Oh My on Nov 7, 2006 20:24:13 GMT -5
Warren - you have to get a new "commuter" that is equipped with a "smell" checker.
Also, does Lloyd have a new name - letters?
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Nichole M
Senior Member
I John 1:5 ..... God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Posts: 486
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Post by Nichole M on Nov 8, 2006 0:36:09 GMT -5
Here's some history about Irvine's letter writing found in Chapter 11 of my WmI Book: Message People do not freely distribute Irvine's letters to outsiders........ A present-day California Omega follower........ His followers believe Wm. Irvine was the greatest prophet this world has ever known. Cherie, Are you saying there is another group of people that Wm Irvine is their founder? The Omega/Message People? It sounds like they still believe these letters and Wm Irvine. It sounds like they at least accept him as founder instead of denying it. Nichole
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Post by history on Nov 8, 2006 3:00:25 GMT -5
Here's some history about Irvine's letter writing found in Chapter 11 of my WmI Book: Message People do not freely distribute Irvine's letters to outsiders........ A present-day California Omega follower........ His followers believe Wm. Irvine was the greatest prophet this world has ever known. Cherie, Are you saying there is another group of people that Wm Irvine is their founder? The Omega/Message People? It sounds like they still believe these letters and Wm Irvine. It sounds like they at least accept him as founder instead of denying it. Nichole 'The message people were those who remained loyal to William Irvine when he was put out by the workers that followed him. These people continued to support him and he wrote letters to them. The group has split into 3 and you might say that the 2x2s as we know them i.e. depending on how you look at it, the group that Bert and others belong to is a break away from William Irvine. The group started with William Irvine, they exed Him and some remained true to him, they exed Cooney and some remained true to him, and the main group which was taken over by those who converted in the group William started.
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Post by Col Henderson on Nov 8, 2006 7:06:55 GMT -5
Most of these letters seem to have been written after William Irvine was no longer able to play a game of marbles.
Are they any of his extent letters from the period 1897 - 1914 which may yield how his mind was operating during the formative years of this ministry.
I take Nate's point about being skeptical about his letters written after his mind went a.w.o.l.
Much obliged anyone.
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 8, 2006 7:19:40 GMT -5
Nichole - what somebody brote you above re the 3 groups is true.
Col: RE: Most of these letters seem to have been written after William Irvine was no longer able to play a game of marbles...I take Nate's point about being skeptical about his letters written after his mind went a.w.o.l.
***The "lost his mind" is a label others put on him, when his thoughts began to differ from others. There is no proof of this. He was never in a mental institution, and lived unassisted until the last 6 months of his death. He was not put out for his "lost mind."
If you will read my book, you'll learn all about his excommunication.
RE: Are they any of his extent letters from the period 1897 - 1914 ***Only a few sermons. Thease are on TTT
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Post by Col Henderson on Nov 8, 2006 7:47:28 GMT -5
'm very grateful to you Cherie for responding and for the tremendous efforts you are putting in to straighten things out.
Personally I think there is clear indication that Irvine became deluded in the latter years of his ministry with the F&W'S. For one thing he seems to have embarked on a fanatical letter writing spree, since there are very few letters prior to 1914 or thereabouts.
To support my belief, I find it hard, yes even impossible to accept that his inflence and preaching in the early days would have attracted such following if it had shown the type of extreme delusions contained in his letter writing days.
Yes Irvine was a strong character, extreme and powerful, but most of his preaching seemed to make sense to listeners at the time, even those initiated in other Christian ways. He did attack the churches of his day which if we compare political campaigning of today we can draw some very close parrallels.
That Irvine was never in a mental institution does not surprise me, because in first half 20th century Britain, most loonies continued to live in the community.
Irvine believed in progressive revelation. I have no opposition to that belief, but perhaps he was actually suffering from "progressive degeneration" brought about by the rise in his "baby" which was outgrowing his power to control it. Power freaks often turn against what they create when it gets beyond their means of control and they get jealous as others around them grow in stature. Sometimes it is something they just can't handle. Toys get thrown out of the pram and such like.
Faced with this environment perhaps Irvine's mind sought sanctuary in even more extreme thinking ?
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Post by las logged out on Nov 8, 2006 8:10:01 GMT -5
Well we can all see the benifits of referring to others for scriptural help...call it seeking help from your advisers William Irvine should of done this
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Post by las logged out on Nov 8, 2006 8:18:26 GMT -5
I suppose that Wm Irvine did seek advice from Eddie Cooney and Frank Walsh
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Post by las logged out on Nov 8, 2006 11:11:24 GMT -5
I did not write the post above
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Post by a believer on Nov 8, 2006 14:09:21 GMT -5
I did not write the post above Re:William Irvine's frantic writing spree. William Irvine was living in Jerusalem when we wrote the letters. He was cut off from people in meetings, both because of location and by the other workers. Why would he write many letters when he was actually with the people and could talk/preach to them. I notice that the excuse that many in meetings give for someone who has left or speaks out against the group, is that they have lost their mind, (I have heard them say that about perfectly sane people), they have gone religious and other things to make people think bad things about someone. People caught on the first message of Irvine (Alpha message) but they rejected his next message, (Omega message). Had he gone mad, or was he mad from the beginning. They accepted it when it included them (i.e that those who follow him will be saved), but when it only included Irvine as the true prophet they rejected that. The workers preaching that they are the only true servants of God and one must hear the Gospel through them in order to be saved, is that any different to what Irvine preached when he believed he was one of the 2 prophets in the end that the Bible talks about. The difference being the workers versus one worker. When it inclued them they accepted it, when it didn't they rejected it and said he had gone mad. Irvine's last messae was not a lot difference from his first message except the first included them, the second did not. Re Nathan's earlier post, you wonder if Irvine had contact with the Waldos etc. You have been saying all the long that John Govan, William Irvine came down the Waldo line. Now you are saying that you don't know.
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Post by wondering on Nov 8, 2006 14:16:23 GMT -5
I suppose that Wm Irvine did seek advice from Eddie Cooney and Frank Walsh Has anyone figured Ted Haggard should read up on this, maybe could send him them letters. Good reading to cheer him up.
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Post by Arthur on Nov 8, 2006 15:04:06 GMT -5
To A Believer - Re - Irvine (your first para)
"Why would he write many letters when he was actually with the people and could talk/preach to them ?"
This logic, this absolute filth, falls flat on its face when we consider this present world with all its modern means of communication, and yet the Workers who ARE with the people, regularly indulge in frantic writing sprees."
This alone puts to the sword all the workings of man's mind which follows on from it.
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Post by a believer on Nov 8, 2006 21:37:38 GMT -5
To A Believer - Re - Irvine (your first para) "Why would he write many letters when he was actually with the people and could talk/preach to them ?" This logic, this absolute filth, falls flat on its face when we consider this present world with all its modern means of communication, and yet the Workers who ARE with the people, regularly indulge in frantic writing sprees." This alone puts to the sword all the workings of man's mind which follows on from it. Your choice of words is sickening. I have written no filth. William Irvine did not live in this present world. He is well gone. He wrote all his letters by hand. There was also no photocopy machines in his day. Yes it appears that he went on a frantic writing spree and a plausible reason maybe because he was cut of from the people but by location and by the other workers. It seems a logical answer in view that there were none, or very few letters around before this time. Your put downs and intimidation tactics are concerning for others in your life. Seems like Syd has struck again!! And Syd goes to meeting... not a good witness.
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