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Post by HUCK on Aug 6, 2006 23:42:37 GMT -5
Tonight the wife and I received an award for our music at a gathering in an area Catholic Church Social Hall. We received many handshakes and nice comments congratulating us from many nice people; some of who are Catholic acquaintances. The Catholic ladies served a nice lunch in appreciation.
Our efforts are supported by many lovely Catholic friends who, if I didn't know, I couldn't identify as being Catholic. Also there were some who sang in their choir tonight that I didn't realize were Catholic. One in particular asked to be included in our area Music Jamborees and we'd found alot in common with her and shared our faith with each other over the years. I could tell she was taken back when she realized that I wasn't Catholic and had previously made a comment about it in an email to me a few years ago.
I really see a unity amongst believers. I'm not referring to "belief in a system", I'm talking about being a believer in the only begotten Son of God. That is the tie that binds me with these Catholics........if ever the mention of "what church do you go to" arises, walls and red flags start coming up and fellowship deteriorates on the spot. I'd really rather not know what church a person belongs to, but when they single out and perform with their respective church group, it's hard to hide.
It's fulfilling to be able to minister to a crowd of mixed denominations in my status as a non church goer.....non member...no denominational preference. I can't be scrutinized according to my church affiliation and alot of people just don't know what to think of it, but it appears to be an advantage to me.
Many pastors were present tonight for this songfest and awards event except for the Catholic pastor. That's usually what happens.....they resist to mingle for some reason. I have had Catholic assistant pastors present and participating in my Jamborees, but never a current or retired priest. I've invited them personally and they're running out of excuses.....LOL
Did succeed in getting a 2x2 to spectate in a recent Jamboree and the next time the JWs come to the door, they're going to get invited also.
Is there some common thread that binds? Could it be Love? Could it be the spirit of the Lord that surpasses the bounds of denomination? It's becoming more evident to me all the time that God really doesn't give a hoot what church we go to....if any! In many ways, it works against the Holy Spirit.
John 15:17 "Love one another"
Howard, The Hated Troll
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Post by Gene on Aug 7, 2006 0:25:21 GMT -5
H, in my opinion what you experienced (the tie that binds) is indeed love, and that is of God. Interesting that one can experience this with people of varying denominations - and even other religions.
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Post by Bert unconnected on Aug 7, 2006 5:20:22 GMT -5
Makes me wonder about Herod the Great. He heard John gladly, according to one gospel. But John appears to have been hung up on works, methods and a system. He paid with his life by reminding Herod of Jewish law. Bert.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 7, 2006 9:02:40 GMT -5
Tonight the wife and I received an award for our music at a gathering in an area Catholic Church Social Hall. We received many handshakes and nice comments congratulating us from many nice people; some of who are Catholic acquaintances. The Catholic ladies served a nice lunch in appreciation. Nice songs, nice comments, and a nice lunch between believers is nice... Our efforts are supported by many lovely Catholic friends who, if I didn't know, I couldn't identify as being Catholic. Also there were some who sang in their choir tonight that I didn't realize were Catholic. Our choir participates in interdenominational concerts every year. It's a lot of fun. I really see a unity amongst believers. I'm not referring to "belief in a system", ... but when they single out and perform with their respective church group, it's hard to hide. Singing songs is a nice way to acknowledge beliefs common to members of different faith backgrounds. Sadly, it is when it comes to worship that is more than just music that it's hard to hide the differences. It's fulfilling to be able to minister to a crowd of mixed denominations in my status as a non church goer.....non member...no denominational preference. I can't be scrutinized according to my church affiliation and alot of people just don't know what to think of it, but it appears to be an advantage to me. Where some see an "advantage", I see none. Many pastors were present tonight for this songfest and awards event except for the Catholic pastor. That's usually what happens.....they resist to mingle for some reason. I have had Catholic assistant pastors present and participating in my Jamborees, but never a current or retired priest. I've invited them personally and they're running out of excuses.....LOL My pastor is head of the city-wide Ecumenical council. He goes on TV for discussions with members of other faiths and always goes to our interdenominational concerts. In fact, he's usually the one who arranges the concerts. Is there some common thread that binds? Could it be Love? Could it be the spirit of the Lord that surpasses the bounds of denomination? It's becoming more evident to me all the time that God really doesn't give a hoot what church we go to....if any! In many ways, it works against the Holy Spirit. Yes, love. It is one thing to be non-denominational. It is entirely a different thing to be anti-denominational.
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Post by CC ex on Aug 7, 2006 9:02:51 GMT -5
My friend, a 36-year 2x2 elder, calls the Cath Ch "the great harlot". Is this common?
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 7, 2006 9:06:25 GMT -5
My friend, a 36-year 2x2 elder, calls the Cath Ch "the great harlot". Is this common? Yup.
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Post by Osama Bin Laden on Aug 7, 2006 9:33:40 GMT -5
The 2x2 elder who made the statement listed above would be to the 2x2 group what Osama Bin Laden is to the Muslems. The anti Catholic thing went out with William Irvine (our founder)! We all owe a major debt to the R Catholic Church and only the extreme Bin Laden types are anti Catholic. We like Catholics, Baptist, etc. Those who are trying to destroy us are the radical Muslems, not our fellow Christians.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 7, 2006 10:06:57 GMT -5
Where some see an "advantage", I see none. The advantage, Clay, is that I can work unencumbered from having a label. It cannot be said that I'm promoting a denomination and its beliefs. My work is not an outreach of a church. Their donations are not going toward church missions and I am not conducting clumsy rituals that would cause discomfort within a mixed group. I am not interested in promoting a church. My pastor is head of the city-wide Ecumenical council. He goes on TV for discussions with members of other faiths and always goes to our interdenominational concerts. In fact, he's usually the one who arranges the concerts. I can appreciate a pastor like that. He appears to be one of the few who could deny methodology without fear of "losing out". Yes, love. It is one thing to be non-denominational. It is entirely a different thing to be anti-denominational. To be pro-denominational would mean that I have a denominational preference and I don't. Those who do tend to be directional and will find themselves supporting and following biased doctrines (methodology)........many times quenching the Spirit. Howard
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 7, 2006 10:56:46 GMT -5
The advantage, Clay, is that I can work unencumbered from having a label. It cannot be said that I'm promoting a denomination and its beliefs. My work is not an outreach of a church. Their donations are not going toward church missions and I am not conducting clumsy rituals that would cause discomfort within a mixed group. I am not interested in promoting a church. Howard's underlying assumption that being labeled with a group is a bad thing affiliation remains unproven, "clumsy rituals" or not. To be pro-denominational would mean that I have a denominational preference and I don't. Those who do tend to be directional and will find themselves supporting and following biased doctrines (methodology)........many times quenching the Spirit. "Quenching the Spirit" is another assumption that exists merely in Howard's biased anti-denominational mind. The Spirit that is present at a concert is the same that can be present at a Methodist church service, assuming we're not mistaking the warm fuzzy enjoyment of a pleasant tune with the Holy Spirit.
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Post by 2nd commandment on Aug 7, 2006 11:28:56 GMT -5
The Catholics have thrown out the 2nd commandment because they make a fortune selling statues of mother Mary and many other statues has well it's big time money. Then they took I believe it is the 10th commandment and divided it into two so they have 10 commandments but it isn't right?
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Post by HUCK on Aug 7, 2006 11:36:33 GMT -5
Howard's underlying assumption that being labeled with a group is a bad thing affiliation remains unproven, "clumsy rituals" or not. Not only a bad thing, but announced affiliation would be sure death to an ecumenical function. It would be like expecting a big loyal turnout of Methodists at a 2x2 Convention. "Quenching the Spirit" is another assumption that exists merely in Howard's biased anti-denominational mind. Thes 5:19 "Quench not the Spirit" not only exists in my mind, it exists in the Holy Bible. The Spirit that is present at a concert is the same that can be present at a Methodist church service, assuming we're not mistaking the warm fuzzy enjoyment of a pleasant tune with the Holy Spirit. And it is the same spirit that is evident in these mixed-denominational groups that attend these non-denominational functions. The Holy Spirit doesn't seem to be biased upon whom he shares the Spirit. It was revealed last night in the lovely Catholic lady who, with eyes closed and face aglow, is singing "How Great Thou Art" along with a mixed crowd of people led by a Full Gospel minister. Same song, same Spirit. No prejudice.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 7, 2006 12:13:14 GMT -5
Not only a bad thing, but announced affiliation would be sure death to an ecumenical function. It would be like expecting a big loyal turnout of Methodists at a 2x2 Convention. To me, ecumenism is celebrating common beliefs while at the same honestly acknowledging the differences, not pretending differences don't exist. Thes 5:19 "Quench not the Spirit" not only exists in my mind, it exists in the Holy Bible. Irrelevent - it is the application thereof that exists in Howard's anti-denominational mind. And it is the same spirit that is evident in these mixed-denominational groups that attend these non-denominational functions. The Holy Spirit doesn't seem to be biased upon whom he shares the Spirit. It was revealed last night in the lovely Catholic lady who, with eyes closed and face aglow, is singing "How Great Thou Art" along with a mixed crowd of people led by a Full Gospel minister. Same song, same Spirit. No prejudice. How Great Thou Art is a great song - I wish we sang it more in our choir. I'll go ahead and assume that Howard is a devoted Christian who has been blessed with musical talent and called to music ministry. All I'm suggesting is that while a musical concert is a nice way to glorify God and bring people of good will together, it remains simply a musical concert.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 7, 2006 23:01:12 GMT -5
To me, ecumenism is celebrating common beliefs while at the same honestly acknowledging the differences, not pretending differences don't exist. Or better yet, striving for unity regardless of unimportant differences and that is what I notice and strive for. I try to find that common "tie that binds"......it appears to me that this love or spirit or whatever we may choose to call it definitely exists regardless of denomination and I have to suggest that it's not accessed by anything other than belief in Him. It is not measured proportionately according to one's indulgence in sacrament or church attendance or affiliation. It crosses denominational boundaries and is obviously emitting from those who are born again. Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ as their savioiur. Luke 11:13. "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him? "How could anyone be denied? Irrelevent - it is the application thereof that exists in Howard's anti-denominational mind. Recognizing the Holy Spirit in others is an actual reality. How Great Thou Art is a great song - I wish we sang it more in our choir. I'll go ahead and assume that Howard is a devoted Christian who has been blessed with musical talent and called to music ministry. All I'm suggesting is that while a musical concert is a nice way to glorify God and bring people of good will together, it remains simply a musical concert. And for those of us who are unchurched, it becomes our worship service and it is as fulfilling as any church service....even moreso to me. But, the point here is that there is unity amongst Christ centered believers and it shows in their actions, responses and their lives......evidence to me of one God, one faith and one baptism. In addition, a church service is nothing more than a church service. Attendance in itself, participation in sacramental activities, readings, songs, congregational recitals, donating to collections etc. is not the mechanism whereby we receive the Holy Spirit. It is merely a church service; a gathering of the like minded. Jesus said to ask for the spirit. That comes through confessing Him as Lord and believing in the heart that He is risen from the dead. Open the door and He will come in and sup with us. Howard
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 8, 2006 9:07:33 GMT -5
And for those of us who are unchurched, it becomes our worship service and it is as fulfilling as any church service....even moreso to me...a church service is nothing more than a church service. Attendance in itself, participation in sacramental activities, readings, songs, congregational recitals, donating to collections etc. is not the mechanism whereby we receive the Holy Spirit. It is merely a church service; a gathering of the like minded. Which is precisely why people remain unchurched - those people for whom a church service is merely a gathering of likeminded people, kinda like a social club. The gathering itself can become more important than the purpose for gathering; for some, the importance is more of an opportunity for a performance. This is Howard's chosen path - showing up a the occasional church to play some music and calling it "worship". I can partly agree with that, but I assert that Howard is in absolutely no position whatsoever to decide the mechanisms by which the Holy Spirit is received. It's none of his business to know how the Holy Spirit acts in other people's lives. The Holy Spirit can be present in a musical performance in addition to being present in a sacrament such as the Eucharist, baptism, etc.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 8, 2006 10:44:05 GMT -5
Which is precisely why people remain unchurched - those people for whom a church service is merely a gathering of likeminded people, kinda like a social club. The gathering itself can become more important than the purpose for gathering; for some, the importance is more of an opportunity for a performance. Amen, many people have been raised to believe in the importance of never missing a meeting, a mass or a Sunday service and are made to feel threatened of losing their salvation if they refrain. The condition of the heart is not evidenced by the frequency of faithfully gathering together and neither is the frequency of gathering together any evidence of the condition of the heart. My own unchurched status might have been influenced by my 2x2 upbringing and it leaves an opening for distrusting claims made by other denominations as to their supremacy. To me, it has nothing to do with "believing on the Lord"......that came as a personal committment that had nothing to do with going to church. This is Howard's chosen path - showing up a the occasional church to play some music and calling it "worship". I can partly agree with that, but I assert that Howard is in absolutely no position whatsoever to decide the mechanisms by which the Holy Spirit is received. It's none of his business to know how the Holy Spirit acts in other people's lives. The Holy Spirit can be present in a musical performance in addition to being present in a sacrament such as the Eucharist, baptism, etc. I am the only one in the position of deciding the mechanism by which the Holy Spirit is received IN MY LIFE......and it has nothing to do with baptism, indulging in sacraments, going to church or confessing to anyone other than God. It IS my business to acknowlege the Holy Spirit in others lives, as that is the tie that binds believers together and I find that bond in the Full Gospel pastor who led the singing that included many from various denominations. The Catholic lady who revealed the Holy Spirit (maybe moreso than others) is a personal friend of mine and has asked to be included in our Jamborees. Our spirit is in unison and although she may feel that I am deficient in my worship techniques, I accept her with equality as a sister in Christ. I agree that the Spirit can be present in the Eucharist, a baptism etc. as it has also revealed itself in a wedding that I attended. It's NO ONE's business to regulate the spirit.....it is as the wind. We cannot quench the Sprit and we are told NOT TO ! No denomination has the franchise. The Troll
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 8, 2006 12:29:19 GMT -5
The condition of the heart is not evidenced by the frequency of faithfully gathering together and neither is the frequency of gathering together any evidence of the condition of the heart. Taking the time to gather together with like-minded believers is itself an act of faith. The very fact that someone does that can most certainly be taken as some evidence of the condition of their heart. My own unchurched status might have been influenced by my 2x2 upbringing and it leaves an opening for distrusting claims made by other denominations as to their supremacy. To me, it has nothing to do with "believing on the Lord"......that came as a personal committment that had nothing to do with going to church. If it is all about a "personal committment that has nothing to do with going to a church", Howard should ask himself why he even bothers going to a church to play a concert. I agree that the Spirit can be present in the Eucharist, a baptism etc. as it has also revealed itself in a wedding that I attended. It's NO ONE's business to regulate the spirit.....it is as the wind. We cannot quench the Sprit and we are told NOT TO ! No denomination has the franchise. Excellent. I look forward, then, to no more statements by Howard limiting the Holy Spirit like this one: "Attendance in itself, participation in sacramental activities, readings, songs, congregational recitals, donating to collections etc. is not the mechanism whereby we receive the Holy Spirit".
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Post by HUCK on Aug 8, 2006 19:10:40 GMT -5
Taking the time to gather together with like-minded believers is itself an act of faith. The very fact that someone does that can most certainly be taken as some evidence of the condition of their heart. Yes it is and it is the same Holy Spirit that is revealed in all of them. One God, one faith and one baptism. Unless some of them go out of duty with the feeling that their mere attendance and physical participation will increase God's grace. If it is all about a "personal committment that has nothing to do with going to a church", Howard should ask himself why he even bothers going to a church to play a concert. Salvation is all about a personal committment ("whosoever believes in me"). We go to churches by invitation to share our music and faith with others. It is a responsive act of our faith, not creative of faith. Much like water baptism. Excellent. I look forward, then, to no more statements by Howard limiting the Holy Spirit like this one: "Attendance in itself, participation in sacramental activities, readings, songs, congregational recitals, donating to collections etc. is not the mechanism whereby we receive the Holy Spirit". Oh gosh, we're talking about two different things here, Clay. I just said above that our actions do not create faith...it's not a mechanical thing. Participation in such events often allow the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself in various believers and settings. It is actually what I meant by not "quenching the spirit". It knows no denominational bounds. On the other hand, receiving the Holy Spirit is a different matter........something that is obtained by believing; not accumulated over a period of time through church activities. We do not attend to receive the Holy Spirit, we attend because we have the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13 ) "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." (Ephesians 1:13-14) says the Holy Spirit is the seal of salvation for all those who believe, "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory." I hope you can distinguish the difference.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 8, 2006 19:57:15 GMT -5
Yes it is and it is the same Holy Spirit that is revealed in all of them. One God, one faith and one baptism. Wait a minute, did Howard get baptized in his absence from the TMB? Unless some of them go out of duty with the feeling that their mere attendance and physical participation will increase God's grace. I have no idea what "increase God's grace" means, but it is most certainly not up to Howard to discern all the motivations inside the heart of church attendees. That would an example of his limiting the Holy Spirit. Salvation is all about a personal committment ("whosoever believes in me"). We go to churches by invitation to share our music and faith with others. It is a responsive act of our faith, not creative of faith. Much like water baptism. Then it reduces Howard's attendance at his concert to a mere pleasant, "nice" recreation, like visiting the zoo with the kids... Excellent. I look forward, then, to no more statements by Howard limiting the Holy Spirit like this one: "Attendance in itself, participation in sacramental activities, readings, songs, congregational recitals, donating to collections etc. is not the mechanism whereby we receive the Holy Spirit". Oh gosh, we're talking about two different things here, Clay. Get ready to watch Howard switch into *Equivocation Mode* I just said above that our actions do not create faith...it's not a mechanical thing. Participation in such events often allow the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself in various believers and settings. Um......no. That's the exact opposite of what I quoted. "Creating faith" and "receiving the Holy Spirit" are indeed two different things. Howard is on record as insisting that the things listed above are not the mechanisms by which we receive the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, receiving the Holy Spirit is a different matter........something that is obtained by believing; not accumulated over a period of time through church activities. Didn't Howard start off by admitting that church attendance is a form of faith, therefore of "believing"? (1 Corinthians 12:13 ) "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Still waiting to see Howard's baptismal certificate... Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Jesus became flesh, remember? Howard does tend to have some Manichean tendencies.
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 8, 2006 19:58:06 GMT -5
Yes it is and it is the same Holy Spirit that is revealed in all of them. One God, one faith and one baptism. Wait a minute, did Howard get baptized in his absence from the TMB? Unless some of them go out of duty with the feeling that their mere attendance and physical participation will increase God's grace. I have no idea what "increase God's grace" means, but it is most certainly not up to Howard to discern all the motivations inside the heart of church attendees. That would an example of his limiting the Holy Spirit. Salvation is all about a personal committment ("whosoever believes in me"). We go to churches by invitation to share our music and faith with others. It is a responsive act of our faith, not creative of faith. Much like water baptism. Then it reduces Howard's attendance at his concert to a mere pleasant, "nice" recreation, like visiting the zoo with the kids... Excellent. I look forward, then, to no more statements by Howard limiting the Holy Spirit like this one: "Attendance in itself, participation in sacramental activities, readings, songs, congregational recitals, donating to collections etc. is not the mechanism whereby we receive the Holy Spirit". Oh gosh, we're talking about two different things here, Clay. Get ready to watch Howard switch into *Equivocation Mode* I just said above that our actions do not create faith...it's not a mechanical thing. Participation in such events often allow the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself in various believers and settings. Um......no. That's the exact opposite of what I quoted. "Creating faith" and "receiving the Holy Spirit" are indeed two different things. Howard is on record as insisting that the things listed above are not the mechanisms by which we receive the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, receiving the Holy Spirit is a different matter........something that is obtained by believing; not accumulated over a period of time through church activities. Didn't Howard start off by admitting that church attendance is a form of faith, therefore of "believing"? (1 Corinthians 12:13 ) "For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." Still waiting to see Howard's baptismal certificate... Romans 8:9 "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Jesus became flesh, remember? Howard does tend to have some Manichean tendencies.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 8, 2006 21:20:26 GMT -5
Wait a minute, did Howard get baptized in his absence from the TMB? What baptism are you referring to, Clay......water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Matt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you in water for repentance, but he who comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit." I have no idea what "increase God's grace" means, but it is most certainly not up to Howard to discern all the motivations inside the heart of church attendees. That would an example of his limiting the Holy Spirit. I have no idea what it means either, but you've insisted over the years that I am not taking advantage of all of God's graces by my lax physical activities associated with the Catholic Church. Neither do I find reference to such a theory in the bible. That again supports my statement that mere church activity including the taking of sacraments will NOT increase grace. It's not up to either one of us to determine heart motivations, but we can recognize them when they do appear.....sometimes with emotion. Then it reduces Howard's attendance at his concert to a mere pleasant, "nice" recreation, like visiting the zoo with the kids... It's a common sharing of faith; why, do you go to increase God's grace upon you? Get ready to watch Howard switch into *Equivocation Mode* Clay, I really feel that you don't know the difference between revealing the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit. Um......no. That's the exact opposite of what I quoted. "Creating faith" and "receiving the Holy Spirit" are indeed two different things. Howard is on record as insisting that the things listed above are not the mechanisms by which we receive the Holy Spirit. I sure hope I'm on record for insisting that the following is NOT a mechanism by which we receive the Holy Spirit. Do you think they are? "Attendance in itself, participation in sacramental activities, readings, songs, congregational recitals, donating to collections etcDidn't Howard start off by admitting that church attendance is a form of faith, therefore of "believing"? Don't continue to confuse the two. Church attendance can (not always) reveal inner faith but is sure not to be confused with receiving the Holy Spirit. You should know by now that faith is a gift from God.....not earned, can't be bought, can't be formed out of sacramental activities including baptism. Still waiting to see Howard's baptismal certificate... Still hoping you'll realize the difference someday. Jesus became flesh, remember? Howard does tend to have some Manichean tendencies. Don't skirt the issue, Clay. Do you even know what the following verse means? "But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him".
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 9, 2006 9:01:58 GMT -5
What baptism are you referring to, Clay......water baptism or the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Matt 3:11 "I indeed baptize you in water for repentance, but he who comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit." "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (Jn 3:5) That again supports my statement that mere church activity including the taking of sacraments will NOT increase grace. Which proves that Howard limits the Holy Spirit by insisting that just because he can't understand how grace can be received then it must not be true. It's not up to either one of us to determine heart motivations, but we can recognize them when they do appear.....sometimes with emotion. It's not up to either one of us, but that doesn't stop Howard from still doing it... It's a common sharing of faith; why, do you go to increase God's grace upon you? I go to mass to receive the Eucharist, to share in the communion and community of faith, to be forgiven of sins, and to worship God with all my strength. I could listen to How Great Thou Art on my CD player and not move my lazy rear end from the couch, if I wanted to. If all Howard has to offer is an amateur rendition of a few religious songs, I see little value in going to a church. Clay, I really feel that you don't know the difference between revealing the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit. This is Howard limiting the Holy Spirit, again. I sure hope I'm on record for insisting that the following is NOT a mechanism by which we receive the Holy Spirit. Do you think they are? This is Howard limiting the Holy Spirit, once again. You should know by now that faith is a gift from God.....not earned, can't be bought, Of course I never said this. can't be formed out of sacramental activities including baptism. This is Howard limiting the power of the Holy Spirit, yet again. Still hoping you'll realize the difference someday. This is Howard limiting the Holy Spirit, while at the same time quoting bible verses about baptism when he's never been baptized. Jesus became flesh, remember? Howard does tend to have some Manichean tendencies. Don't skirt the issue, Clay. Do you even know what the following verse means? "But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him". I wasn't skirting the issue. I was pointing out that we humans are BOTH flesh AND spirit. Howard over-emphasizes the latter and limits the former.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 9, 2006 22:55:29 GMT -5
Wow.....you didn't have much nice stuff to say today, Clay.
The Spirit's moving around here though, opportunities arise to witness and share my faith and if it wasn't for that all happening through my music involvement, I might be sitting my lazy rearend on the couch with you or even sitting in a dead church listening to a dry sermon.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you ...."
Amen and amen...!!
Howard
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 10, 2006 8:26:08 GMT -5
and if it wasn't for that all happening through my music involvement, I might be sitting my lazy rearend on the couch with you or even sitting in a dead church listening to a dry sermon. Which highlights a fundamental difference between our views of church. Howard views church attendance with a mandatory requirement for some form of entertainment, i.e., if there's just a sermon then it's automatically "dry" and the therefore the church is "dead". These are just arbitrary value judgments made by someone who rarely crosses the threshold of a church long enough to have any idea what he's talking about.
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Post by HUCK on Aug 10, 2006 9:18:14 GMT -5
Lighten up there, Sport, look around you and see God at work. Church is only one occasion to fellowship with the Lord and to meet with His people and it usually only lasts one hour out of every week. There's still another 167 hours in the week to witness Him at work in people's hearts. "Go Ye out and get involved" .........it's enlightening...!!! HUCK
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 10, 2006 10:13:52 GMT -5
Lighten up there, Sport, look around you and see God at work. I simply do not see God at work in Howard's activity here on the TMB. Church is only one occasion to fellowship with the Lord and to meet with His people and it usually only lasts one hour out of every week. There's still another 167 hours in the week to witness Him at work in people's hearts. And this is a valid reason not to attend church - that's it's only one hour a week? If it's only one hour out of your week, can Howard not find the time during his busy concert tour to go? "Go Ye out and get involved" .........it's enlightening...!!! As I stated before, I am involved - music ministry is just one thing that I do...
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Post by HUCK on Aug 10, 2006 14:38:25 GMT -5
I simply do not see God at work in Howard's activity here on the TMB. Well it's probably time I leave again .....it kinda drags me down anyhow. And this is a valid reason not to attend church - that's it's only one hour a week? God is everywhere.....fulltime. If it's only one hour out of your week, can Howard not find the time during his busy concert tour to go? I never saw an advantage worshipping God in a certain building on a particular day of the week at a preset hour with a preset format. As I stated before, I am involved - music ministry is just one thing that I do... I am involved in church work too.....I just don't belong to one.
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