Something To Think About
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Post by Something To Think About on Sept 2, 2007 8:23:52 GMT -5
A few days ago, someone asked: "To all that hold on to [the 2x2 belief that all non-2x2s are lost] how do you handle it?"
Bert responded: "I handle it fine. I take the view that God gives people what they want. There are millions who have no love of God, and they won't change their mind in eternity. Such people might wail to see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, but they don't want to sing the song of the lamb, don't want to wear the correct garment, don't want to surrender their will to God and don't want the fellowship of people they most likely would have hated had they still been on the earth."
There is a lot to think about in Bert's response.
The statement in his response that stands out the most to me is this: "There are millions who have no love of God".
The number of souls that have walked this earth, outside 2x2ism, throughout the course of history up to the present day is best numbered in trillions, not millions.
Why did Bert say millions? There are two possibilities. The first is that it may be that he thinks that while millions of people do not have a genuine love of God, billions do, and trillions have. The second is that it may be that he didn't choose his words very carefully and rather than millions, meant to say billions or, in the context of history, even trillions.
Either way, the questions of his statement remain the same:
1) Why is being a 2x2 an indication that one has a genuine love of God?
2) Why is being a 2x2 the only indication that one has a genuine love of God?
3) Why can a genuine love of God be realized only within 2x2ism?
4) Why can't a genuine love of God be realized outside 2x2ism?
5) Shouldn't a genuine love of God mean that a person will be drawn to God, his council, and will rather than to man, his rules, and organizations?
6) Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge whether or not any person or group of people loves God?
7) Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge how much any person or group of people loves God?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2007 9:01:49 GMT -5
Millions is code for "very very many"
quote - "Why is being a 2x2 an indication that one has a genuine love of God?" 2x2 refers to the manner in which people went out preaching in the bible. I don't use the term for myself, unless you count me and Prue as being 2x2. Some so-called 2x2's don't have a genuine love of God.
quote - "Why is being a 2x2 the only indication that one has a genuine love of God?" It's sometimes hard to tell who loves God, but much easier to tell who doesn't. And I can tell you - many religious people don't.
quote - Why can a genuine love of God be realized only within 2x2ism? To answer that I would need to know what you belong to, and why you left your first love.
quote - Shouldn't a genuine love of God mean that a person will be drawn to God, his council, and will rather than to man, his rules, and organizations? Constitutions, temples, priests, colleges, tithes, social influence and political power are examples of "rules and organisations." We have a minimum of these.
quote - Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge whether or not any person or group of people loves God? I don't judge anyone. But I do know what is right. Much of what goes on in churches [AND IS ACCEPTED] is not right.
quote - Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge how much any person or group of people loves God? These questions are repeats. Who loves God? How to tell? By how much such people seek to be like Christ.
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Post by Ken Coolidge on Sept 2, 2007 9:29:25 GMT -5
I do see a good thing Bert stimulates and that is we once again are reinforced that we are so blessed to have the Damascus experience behind us. Praying for Gods continued mercy.
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Post by to bert on Sept 2, 2007 12:41:36 GMT -5
Millions is code for "very very many"
quote - "Why is being a 2x2 an indication that one has a genuine love of God?" 2x2 refers to the manner in which people went out preaching in the bible. I don't use the term for myself, unless you count me and Prue as being 2x2. Some so-called 2x2's don't have a genuine love of God. You didn't answer the question. Maybe you would like it if it were re-worded. Why is being a 2x2 an indication that one has a genuine love of God? Why is being in your church an indication that one has a genuine love of God? Why is being in the Truth church an indication that one has a genuine love of God? Why is being in Truth (proper noun) an indication that one has a genuine love of God? So you and your fellow 2x2's, along with God, know the heart of man to the point that it is easy for you (mere men) to tell who doesn't love God. Isn't judgment such as this reserved for the Lord? This doesn't answer the question. Again, it was "Why is being a 2x2 the only indication that one has a genuine love of God?" How and why does any of this matter? What do you mean by "what I belong to"? If by this you mean "what church I belong to", my answer is that I belong to no church (meaning an earthly body of believers). I am a Christian which means I belong to God/Jesus, I put my love and trust in God/Jesus, and I submit myself to his will. Does this help? How and why is this relevant? What do you mean by "why I left my first love"? If by this you mean "why I left Truth (proper noun)", my answer is that Truth (proper noun) was never my "first love", it was never anything more than a spiritually vacant social system which allowed men of dubious qualifications, especially spiritually, to have control over my life. It was full of the traditions and rituals of man and utterly empty when it came to God. I struggled, searched, read, and prayed for years, and the more I struggled, searched, read, and prayed, the further I got from Truth (proper noun). Once I finally left Truth, I found a love and understanding of God and a rest and peace like I'd never known before. Does this help? How and why is this relevant? I still don't see how any of this gives you the ability to judge whether or not my love of God is genuine or whether or not is was ever genuine in Truth (proper noun). Remember, the original question was "Why can a genuine love of God be realized only within 2x2ism?" I believe that while the things you just mentioned are necessary to some degree when it comes to man-made organizations, they are not necessary when it comes to establishing a relationship with God. Wouldn't you agree? Another example of this would be air-conditioning. Air-conditioning is useful in the gathering of believers because it can make the gathering place more physically comfortable and less distracting for the people there. (On the other hand, the presence of air-conditioning can make the gathering place less physically comfortable or more distracting for some people.) Regardless, the presence or absence of air-conditioning is not what matters, it is what is going on in the hearts and minds of the individual people there. Again, you seemed to miss the original question. Would you like to take another shot at it? It was "Shouldn't a genuine love of God mean that a person will be drawn to God, his council, and will rather than to man, his rules, and organizations?" Judgment can consist of nothing more than a belief. The act of believing that Truth (proper noun) is the only path to salvation and that all other churches are on the road to damnation is an act of judgment. You say you don't judge, yet you do. You are correct in that much of what goes on in churches is not right. Such is the case anywhere man is involved. This goes for the Truth church as well. However, the amount of corruption in a church should not be the arbiter of it's Godliness. Instead, the Godliness of a church should be measured by how well it facilitates a relationship between it's individual members and God. (This cannot be measured of course, so such a determination must remain a private matter between each individual and God.) This is why it puzzles me that some men (you for example) feel it is their place to judge whether or not any given church is suitable for an individual trying to establish a relationship with God. The question remains "Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge whether or not any person or group of people loves God?" The first question was "whether or not". The second was "how much". There is a difference between determining whether or not something is present and measuring the quantity of it. How do you measure "how much people seek to be like Christ"? How do you know their hearts and minds? Could it be that you are judging them based on their outward appearance and the eloquence of their speech? Much of what can be seen through casual observation is a result of culture and upbringing, not Godliness. It's the heart and mind of man that God is interested in. The question remains "Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge how much any person or group of people loves God?"
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Post by Fred on Sept 2, 2007 17:18:51 GMT -5
Good luck with getting Bert to address a question and answer it. He has a well established track record of twisting and squirming, passing off a comment as an answer !!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2007 17:42:55 GMT -5
quote - Why is being a 2x2 an indication that one has a genuine love of God? "Indication" isn't "proof." You can join anything but the proof is in the living. All forms of religious worship are "indications" but it is good when you go beyond mere indications. Some people can only give indications is you ask them what they believe - you wouldn't know the convictions by anything they live by.quote - Why is being in your church an indication that one has a genuine love of God? Each similar question as abovequote - So you and your fellow 2x2's, along with God, know the heart of man to the point that it is easy for you (mere men) to tell who doesn't love God. Would someone who permanently shut your ears to the Gospel be considered as loving God?quote - How and why does any of this matter? How you LIVE matters seriously.quote - What do you mean by "what I belong to"? If by this you mean "what church I belong to", my answer is that I belong to no church (meaning an earthly body of believers). Would you have met with those people on the Sunday in the NT, when Jesus appeared with them?quote - I am a Christian which means I belong to God/Jesus, I put my love and trust in God/Jesus, and I submit myself to his will. What do you do if God says "don't forsake the assembling of ourselves together" or to "obey those who have the rule over you"?quote - Does this help? How and why is this relevant? It is relevant because I want to know where you are coming from. To say such and such a thing is "wrong" without stating explicitly what you think is right, is misleading.quote - What do you mean by "why I left my first love"? If by this you mean "why I left Truth (proper noun)", my answer is that Truth (proper noun) was never my "first love", I know some like that who are in the Truth for the wrong reasons.quote - it was never anything more than a spiritually vacant social system which allowed men of dubious qualifications, especially spiritually, to have control over my life. Yes, the social is important and scriptural terms like "brethren" and "fellowship" come to mind. Given the parlous state of the world's religions, and the growing number of theologically brilliant clergy who do not even believe in God, what qualifications do you think a preacher needs to speak the Word of God?quote - It was full of the traditions and rituals of man and utterly empty when it came to God. Here is an example of needing to know what church a person belongs to. These traditions are: preaching the Gospel, meet on the Lord's day, partake of the Eucharist, love the brethren, etc. Its all in the NT, and on our web site. home.iprimus.com.au/pruephillip/TheFirstChurch.htm quote - I struggled, searched, read, and prayed for years, and the more I struggled, searched, read, and prayed, the further I got from Truth (proper noun). Once I finally left Truth, I found a love and understanding of God and a rest and peace like I'd never known before. Does this help? How and why is this relevant? So you go fishing on Sunday, and that is how you serve God?quote - I still don't see how any of this gives you the ability to judge whether or not my love of God is genuine or whether or not is was ever genuine in Truth (proper noun). No, the judgment we all MUST make (and this is important) is: what is acceptable to God?.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2007 17:53:41 GMT -5
quote - "I believe that while the things you just mentioned are necessary to some degree when it comes to man-made organizations, they are not necessary when it comes to establishing a relationship with God. Wouldn't you agree? You make it sound as if there are valid options involved here quote -Another example of this would be air-conditioning. Air-conditioning is useful in the gathering of believers because it can make the gathering place more physically comfortable and less distracting for the people there. (On the other hand, the presence of air-conditioning can make the gathering place less physically comfortable or more distracting for some people.) Regardless, the presence or absence of air-conditioning is not what matters, it is what is going on in the hearts and minds of the individual people there. The analogy doesn't work here. There are no aids to the worship of God in the New Covenant. This is explicitly stated, particularly by Paul and the author of Hebrews. No aids, no symbols.quote - Again, you seemed to miss the original question. Would you like to take another shot at it? It was "Shouldn't a genuine love of God mean that a person will be drawn to God, his council, and will rather than to man, his rules, and organizations?" True. But the church in the NT wasn't of man, man's rules or man's organizations. It came from the directive of Christ.quote - "... it puzzles me that some men (you for example) feel it is their place to judge whether or not any given church is suitable for an individual trying to establish a relationship with God." Okay. Lets work back the other way. What church is WRONG is your opinion? I can tell you what is wrong in my opinion: any church which disobeys the directive given for establishing a church (ie idol worship, a Christian priesthood, making merchandise of people etc.)
quote - "How do you measure "how much people seek to be like Christ"? How do you know their hearts and minds? Could it be that you are judging them based on their outward appearance and the eloquence of their speech? Much of what can be seen through casual observation is a result of culture and upbringing, not Godliness. It's the heart and mind of man that God is interested in." If I see someone who enjoys hurting people I would use that as a measure of that person's lack of Christ, for example. These things are totally cross-cultural. If a person dresses in an angry or insulting way I would suspect they don't have the peace of God in their life. If a person is foul mouthed, expletive ridden, blasphemous and outright insulting then I suggest they don't know God. It tells us in the bible that God himself doesn't know such people. But... it is not up to any person to judge who will have salvation.
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Post by to bert on Sept 2, 2007 20:28:01 GMT -5
quote - Why is being a 2x2 an indication that one has a genuine love of God? "Indication" isn't "proof." You can join anything but the proof is in the living. All forms of religious worship are "indications" but it is good when you go beyond mere indications. Some people can only give indications is you ask them what they believe - you wouldn't know the convictions by anything they live by. I understand; Your judgement of others is based on proof rather than indication. Allow me to rephrase the question, which you still haven't answered. Allow me to rephrase this question, which you still haven't answered either. No. This is part of why I left Truth (proper noun). It had made me deaf to the True Gospel and it (the organization) had become my god. How I live has nothing to do with the question you asked and the question you asked has nothing to do with the original question. You seem to be confusing yourself with your own games. Can you please stay with the topic or is that to much to ask of you? Of course. I wouldn't have missed the opportunity to meet Jesus in person. What does this have to do with any of the original questions? I do assemble with others who share my love for God/Jesus and I do obey those who have the rule over me. Were you going somewhere with this? Well you have your answer. Now where's mine? As do I. I was one of these people once. I fail to see what relevance this has to the original questions. He/She should be effective at encouraging people to seek, on their own, a relationship with God. I'm sorry Bert, but this has nothing to do with the original questions. Are you avoiding them for a reason, or is it just something you do by reflex. No, I don't go fishing. What on earth is up with you? Can you stop playing games? Please? Please?? Please??? My Sunday's aren't that much different than any other day of the week. I read, I pray, I enjoy reflecting on spiritual matters, and I try to live my life in a way that demonstrates my thankfulness to the Lord for the sacrifice and salvation of Jesus Christ. It is a bit different, in that I take a nap in the afternoon and go to bed early. Now what does this have to do with the original questions? As in "What [of my behavior and beliefs] is acceptable to God?" Or "What [of others behavior and beliefs] is acceptable to God?" Bert, I don't mean to be rude, but you are one of the most obnoxious people I've ever met online. You avoid questions, change the subject, twist scripture, and play word games to the exhaustive end. You've made it clear you have no interest in addressing the original issues. All you seem concerned with is prolonging the discussion. This makes what we are having and argument. I don't do arguments. I do discusions. So, with all due respect Bert, goodbye. Enjoy the last word; It's all yours.
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Post by regarding bert on Sept 2, 2007 20:53:27 GMT -5
regarding bert, you have to understand that he believes that all non-2x2s are doomed to a lost eternity due to their status as non-2x2s. This is the same belief held by GIT, nathan, alan, etc, et al, and probably all of the workers (if they don't, then they are no longer workers).
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Post by ithascome on Sept 2, 2007 22:32:43 GMT -5
I am not sure Nathan believes this.
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savedbyblood
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Eventually we'll figure it all out!
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Post by savedbyblood on Sept 3, 2007 2:36:51 GMT -5
A few days ago, someone asked: " To all that hold on to [the 2x2 belief that all non-2x2s are lost] how do you handle it?" Bert responded: " I handle it fine. I take the view that God gives people what they want. There are millions who have no love of God, and they won't change their mind in eternity. Such people might wail to see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, but they don't want to sing the song of the lamb, don't want to wear the correct garment, don't want to surrender their will to God and don't want the fellowship of people they most likely would have hated had they still been on the earth." There is a lot to think about in Bert's response. The statement in his response that stands out the most to me is this: " There are millions who have no love of God". There are an estimated 1.2 Billion Muslims on the earth. They Love God but in a way in which Christians would see as "Unholy."
This is Billions which is made of Millions which is indeed a very, very many people.The estimated number of Christians on the earth: 2.1 Billion. They all Love God This number includes Catholic, Pentecostal, Mormon, Quaker, JW's, etc.Some of these have written their own "Bible" as the Holy Book or even written alternative "Bibles" (texts) as given to man by revelation from "God." Judaism is estimated at .22% or 14 MillionThey Love GodHinduism = 14& or 900 MillionThey do not know God.Primal-indigenous, African Traditional and African Diasporic Religions = around 100 million. These do not worship God, but Idols and natural things.Chinese Traditional = 6% or about 394 MillionThey do not worship our God.Buddhism = 6% or about 376 Million.They do not worship our God. Sikhism = 0.36% or about 23 MillionJuche = 19 Million.Juche is the Government Authorized Religion of N. Korea.
The list goes on and on including "Non Religious" made up of Atheism, Paganism, and other "major religions" including but not limited to Spiritism, Babi & Baha'i faiths, Jainism, Shinto, Zoroastrianism, Cao Dai, Tenrikyo, Scientology and Unitarian-Universalism.
There at least 13 other, smaller religions listed in my source:www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.htmlEither way, the questions of his statement remain the same: 1) Why is being a 2x2 an indication that one has a genuine love of God? - Usually, Love for God is something freely given for something freely received. Some of us don't have a true love for God. It will show eventually. You cannot fake it for long. God's Love is Free. No tithes, no collections, no debt for the church but to the Lord Jesus Christ for His sacrifice for our salvation.2) Why is being a 2x2 the only indication that one has a genuine love of God? - I do not believe that being a 2by2 is the "only" indication of Love for God. I have witnessed deep Love for God outside the 2by2 faith in a husband and wife witnessing to me their Love while at my work desk. I have witness the Love for God by 2 strangers who took the time to lay their hands on me and pray for my family when this was the very first time I had met them. This was not in a religious setting.3) Why can a genuine love of God be realized only within 2x2ism? Again, I don't believe that genuine Love for God is specific to the 2by2's. Mk:9:40: For he that is not against us is on our part.
Lk:9:50: And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.4) Why can't a genuine love of God be realized outside 2x2ism? See questions 2 & 3.5) Shouldn't a genuine love of God mean that a person will be drawn to God, his council, and will rather than to man, his rules, and organizations? Yes, and it should work this way in any Christian religion.
I've known men and women that were VERY RELIGIOUS on Sunday, but from Monday until Saturday night it was booze, broads and good times. This is not being drawn to God and not showing Love for God. I was one of these people while professing. I'm much better now, thanks!6) Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge whether or not any person or group of people loves God? There are telling signs in a backsliders life and testimony.. Judgments by us on earth are wrong, including 2by2 workers. If we judge, we are not following the commandment of Jesus Christ and therefore not showing forth Love of God. We should all be careful.7) Who is Bert (or any other 2x2) to judge how much any person or group of people loves God? Though we are not to judge here on earth, if we see True Love for God it is a small thing to tell how much Love is there. Just by observation of the person's enthusiasm for the Friends and Fellowship, Meetings and Pot Lucks, Sings in the homes, adherence to attire and personal grooming goes a long way to tell of Love for God.
Some on the outside and some exes seem to think the arbitrary rules are too restrictive, that the Workers require too much of us. What does the Lord require? So we don't watch TV. Big deal and I don't miss it a bit and I had one for years while professing to quiet my professing wife who was "too bored" during the day and refused to work.
We still go to ball games, Ballet, Concerts, (yeah, Yahnni, Tim McGraw, Ronnie Milsap, STYX, BTO) Fairs, Rodeos, Malls, Theme Parks, read novels, newspapers, listen to news on the radio or internet, listen to talk radio, music, so don't get the idea that 2by2's don't get to have good, clean fun.
We can think for ourselves, question the Workers, (and have disagreements in my case) question God (in my case and the question was answered the next day.) and live and work in "The World." We can see it, touch it, taste it, but not allow it to become a part of our lives. Our Love of God is more than that.
Most 2by2s are a lot like everybody else. We just live a little differently because our Love of God is much more important than things such as weather we watch TV or not, or weather we wear lots of expensive jewelry.
Do we think we are better than everybody else? I hope not because some of us who do so might be in for a shock on Judgment Day! Peace in Him, SBB
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2007 5:57:23 GMT -5
quote - "Judaism is estimated at .22% or 14 Million. They Love God"
Odd, I thought they killed God?
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Post by So on Sept 3, 2007 6:46:47 GMT -5
quote - "Judaism is estimated at .22% or 14 Million. They Love God" Odd, I thought they killed God?So you admit that Jesus is God.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2007 7:10:59 GMT -5
quote - "So you admit that Jesus is God."
Well, I understand there is no such word as trinity in the bible, but this is how it must be...
God was killed by the Jews God raised himself from the dead (this proves he wasn't dead)
or
God was killed by the Jews Nietzsche announced the Death Of God.
or, going by scripture...
The Son of God was killed by the Jews God raised him up again.
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Post by so what on Sept 3, 2007 10:04:37 GMT -5
Well, I understand there is no such word as trinity in the bible So what? The word "convention" isn't in the Bible either, as well as a whole bunch of other terms used by 2x2s.
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