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Post by curious1 on Aug 27, 2007 0:49:54 GMT -5
how long do you think that "the truth" is going to last? how long do you think that the workers can keep the truth about "the truth" covered up?
how many people w/in "the way" actually know that meetings and such were founded by william irvine.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 27, 2007 0:56:15 GMT -5
Forever. It's not. A lot. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeshhhhh. M.
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 27, 2007 1:18:33 GMT -5
i like wannabee... she is one of them that, even if not going to meeting, she is in automatic professing mode....
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Post by yup on Aug 27, 2007 2:10:47 GMT -5
i like wannabee... she is one of them that, even if not going to meeting, she is in automatic professing mode.... That's a fact. She refuses to open her eyes to reality. Talk about voluntary blindness!!!!!!!!!
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 27, 2007 3:26:08 GMT -5
how many people w/in "the way" actually know that meetings and such were founded by william irvine.
Lots. Entire areas by now. Our Head Worker has spoken about Irvine at convention.
But most of the Friends have a faith in God, not in the system, so they don't throw a tantrum and storm off and then spend the next 10 years on the internet, typing all kinds of garbage into the TMB and calling other people "liars" and "hypocrites".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2007 3:38:28 GMT -5
how many people w/in "the way" actually know that meetings and such were founded by william irvine.Lots. Entire areas by now. Our Head Worker has spoken about Irvine at convention. But most of the Friends have a faith in God, not in the system, so they don't throw a tantrum and storm off and then spend the next 10 years on the internet, typing all kinds of garbage into the TMB and calling other people "liars" and "hypocrites". one paragraph out of two is not bad, GIT ......this board cracks me down... (the younger generation says "cracks me down" instead of "cracks me up", in california anyway.
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Post by _ on Aug 27, 2007 3:52:13 GMT -5
how many people w/in "the way" actually know that meetings and such were founded by william irvine.Lots. Entire areas by now. Our Head Worker has spoken about Irvine at convention. Lots... in SOME AREAS... There are many who do not know or deny WI founding the fellowship... It is one thing to KNOW OF william irvine, but its a far different thing to KNOW he founded the fellowship - DO NOT CONFUSE THE TWO! I would disagree... in that it's believed the system is God's way and they cannot have one without the other... What does that have to do with the true history of the fellowship not being known in many areas and being denied in many many other areas?
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Post by 3 on Aug 27, 2007 9:54:55 GMT -5
I've always understood that although WI started the 2x2 way, he eventually was excommunicated from it. It continues on to this day.
My 2x2 mother-in-law admits that WI started a way that mimics her current 2x2 way. She says he tried to worm his way into the her current 2x2 way but was recognized for the false prophet he was and was never allowed in. His way was a copy cat way and, although a remnant of it may be alive today, it has nothing to do with her church.
Has anyone heard her theory?
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Post by Calvin on Aug 27, 2007 9:56:13 GMT -5
how long do you think that "the truth" is going to last?
A long time. There are still workers who are volunteering their lives to preach the Gospel. That seems like the faith is still pretty strong for many and in many areas.
how long do you think that the workers can keep the truth about "the truth" covered up?
Many people know the beginnings of the 2x2's. For most of them, it doesn't seem to matter. What seems to matter to them is that they believe they are following the model of the Gospel as taught by Jesus and his disciples.
how many people w/in "the way" actually know that meetings and such were founded by william irvine.
Not sure. Most of my relatives profess and they are all quite familiar with WI.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 27, 2007 10:27:40 GMT -5
RE: My 2x2 mother-in-law admits that WI started a way that mimics her current 2x2 way. She says he tried to worm his way into the her current 2x2 way but was recognized for the false prophet he was and was never allowed in. His way was a copy cat way and, although a remnant of it may be alive today, it has nothing to do with her church. Has anyone heard her theory?
Not me - Good example of ad hoc delusion. It's so far off its not even funny. Has she read the Secret Sect? What worker has she talked this over with. A second opinion from another worker could easily tell a very different story than the first worker.
WmI actually was the founder of 3 "ways" that are all still existing today: (1) the 2x2s (original group); (2) the Cooneyites (those who left when Cooney was kicked out and followed him); and (3) the Message People (those who followed Wm Irvine when he was kicked out of the 2x2s).
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Post by you mean on Aug 27, 2007 10:44:58 GMT -5
how many people w/in "the way" actually know that meetings and such were founded by william irvine.Lots. Entire areas by now. Our Head Worker has spoken about Irvine at convention. But most of the Friends have a faith in God, not in the system, so they don't throw a tantrum and storm off and then spend the next 10 years on the internet, typing all kinds of garbage into the TMB and calling other people "liars" and "hypocrites". ...like GIT does.
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Post by Have to be honest on Aug 27, 2007 11:05:22 GMT -5
I think the way will continue on for a while yet, I don't see the end in site. Though there has been mass exodus from the way. I think younger generations, who are more likely to get an education, are beginning to question things. With the internet now, we have a huge library of information on our religion. The more people know. The more questions will be asked. The more people will doubt.
I do not think as many people KNOW about Irvine as is let on. Probably the people who visit this site know. I am sure those who are in contact with exes or those who visit this site know, may of heard. But there is still MORE who believe that this way has continued through the ages. Or believe that this way waxed and wanned and Irvine sent by god, restarted the way in this time and age. Or just don't really care to question. I don't think people within the fellowship really grasp who Irvine was, what he teachings were (Living witness doctrine, Alpha and Omega message, etc.) and the profound effect on how they worship today because even if they have heard in passing, they have not sought knowledge of who and what he was.
I think the workers will deny Irvine and who he is as long as they can. Why? Because if the truth came out about who and what Irvine was, and what he taught.... People would seriously begin doubting what they believe in contrast to biblical teaching.
They may not know, they may know and not really understand, but they are following a way which was set up by a false prophet. Just like the JW's are following a was that was set up by Russell. Both groups now deny the teachings of these people who they feel may have been slightly off their rockers, but yet they still whole heartedly follow a why that was founding by them and on them which are FALSE PROPHETS.
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Post by a guess on Aug 27, 2007 11:14:57 GMT -5
I'd guess that after 2 more generations the 2x2s will have deteriorated to complete insignificance. In the USA I'd guess for every person that professes in a year AT LEAST 10 leave. Just within the last week I've heard of 4 families that are looking at the exit. The same dilemna of attrition is effecting the workers. For every worker that offers, how many leave or die? Pull out a workers/convention picture from 20 years ago and count how many are gone and how many have offered in the meantime. How many states have far fewer fields than 20 years ago? This thing is dying a slow death.
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 27, 2007 11:50:31 GMT -5
RE: My 2x2 mother-in-law admits that WI started a way that mimics her current 2x2 way. She says he tried to worm his way into the her current 2x2 way but was recognized for the false prophet he was and was never allowed in. His way was a copy cat way and, although a remnant of it may be alive today, it has nothing to do with her church. Has anyone heard her theory? Not me - Good example of ad hoc delusion. It's so far off its not even funny. Has she read the Secret Sect? What worker has she talked this over with. A second opinion from another worker could easily tell a very different story than the first worker. WmI actually was the founder of 3 "ways" that are all still existing today: (1) the 2x2s (original group); (2) the Cooneyites (those who left when Cooney was kicked out and followed him); and (3) the Message People (those who followed Wm Irvine when he was kicked out of the 2x2s). can i get a copy of the secret sect?
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Post by 2curious1 on Aug 27, 2007 12:02:15 GMT -5
how long do you think that "the truth" is going to last? I'm sure Truth (proper noun) has decades ahead of it, if not centuries. Now Truth (proper noun) as we know it is like any other religion - it changes with time. They can keep trying forever. I don't think it will work forever though I'm sure there will always be some that don't know. People are becoming more informed due in part to the internet and as time goes on, the number of people that know will be on the rise. In some parts of the world, the number may be as high as 90%. In other parts of the world, the number can't be above 10%. It just depends on the area. I live in Kansas and I know from firsthand experience that the number is below 10% in my area. I know. I've asked. I suspect the number is quite low in the midwest US.
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Post by my 2 cents on Aug 27, 2007 12:51:18 GMT -5
GIT,
WI's name may get mentioned from the platform. Or acknowledgment given was once a worker. However, following that admission is usually a statement that makes him merely a ordinary worker who then when wrong.
Full and true disclosure of all the facts: and how he (a human being--came from the FM) and ended up ESTABLISHING & STARTING our church--is never given.
That admission would make us"just another church", with us having a human originator to it--(just like them). And take from us our right to condemn them as being "false".
When those who you've trusted (with your life and soul) have lied to you: and then continue to lie (when you now know the truth: and when you desire "truth") then a very heavy load of stress and distress is placed upon the believer.
You want to believe the messenger. But how can you, if they weren't honest with you in the past, and aren't being honest with you now?
Do individuals not have the right to full disclosure of truth when it comes to making important decisions over the salvation of their own soul?
Will the workers (or any minister) stand in our place on judgment day to answer for us?
Will those of us who know the truth (about WI) and who stay silent be held guilty for allowing the lie to continue to exist--because we valued our place in this church--above the truth?
I urge you to remember that those who left were once sincere believers in our church--just as you are today. And if they loved truth to such an extent that they couldn't endure the lies--then--when does that leave you and I?
And don't individuals (who have been lied to) have a right to be upset (and even very angry) over the fact that they were lied to--about something so important--as THEIR salvation?
You refer to them having temper tantrums and leaving because of it. I see them as being extremely honest--and so honest that they couldn't accept the lies. And I know that God loves truth and hates lies.
Now, I love our church. And this situation now places me in the category of wondering: Do I love IT--MORE than I love truth?
If so, (and I fear so) then--I highly doubt I have God's approval.
Full disclosure would sure ease the problem for me.
How do you deal with it? (or do you just dismiss all the facts of Cherie's research as being false)?
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 27, 2007 12:52:28 GMT -5
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 27, 2007 13:04:12 GMT -5
thanks Cherie.
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Post by guesssst on Aug 27, 2007 13:29:54 GMT -5
In oregon i would think that very few none actually know that WI founded the truth. I think the percentage that actually know OF WI is probably a little more
I knew a (now worker) who found out and was very confused/ angry by what she had found out because she thought the way was since the time of Jesus. she eventually decided not to believe it because of the "bitter" outsiders just trying to lead people w/in the truth astray.
i honestly think that this way will probably die out w/in 50 years or so.
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Post by mistaken identity on Aug 27, 2007 14:40:57 GMT -5
Last year we had guests over for dinner. I only knew about William Irvine for a month back then. So I asked "has any of you ever heard of William Irvine?" There were 8 people not counting me at the table. One looked like he'd seen a ghost. The other 7 said they'd heard of him. The conversation went on a little more and that's when we figured out that the other 7 hadn't really heard of William Irvine they'd heard of Irvine Ross who is another worker.
People might say they've heard of William Irvine but really mean someone with a name like his and another thing is someone can hear of William Irvine without knowing he's the founder.
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Post by you liar hypocrite on Aug 27, 2007 17:10:15 GMT -5
how many people w/in "the way" actually know that meetings and such were founded by william irvine.Lots. Entire areas by now. Our Head Worker has spoken about Irvine at convention. But most of the Friends have a faith in God, not in the system, so they don't throw a tantrum and storm off and then spend the next 10 years on the internet, typing all kinds of garbage into the TMB and calling other people "liars" and "hypocrites". You really are a piece of work, GIT. After all, you yourself have admitted that your faith is based on your membership as a 2x2. Now you want us to believe that it's not. You say one thing one day, then the opposite thing another day. Make up your mind. Quit being such a flip-flopper, GIT.
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Post by read this on Aug 27, 2007 17:26:41 GMT -5
I heard one time from a "friend" that she didn't like the term "2x2" because it's a word made up by "the ex's" to call the friends. Ironically, I don't like the term "ex" because it is a word made up by the "friends" to call those who used to be, but are not presently professing in the 2x2 way. But, to avoid all confusion, I'll go with the label. I am an "ex." (Ooooo! Doesn't that sound ominous!!) I didn't leave the 2x2s because of the revealing of the origins though. I learned of the 2x2 history years after leaving.
I've been watching this board and have decided that it is a good place to post my reflections about the 2x2 way, as long as Apples or whoever else runs the board doesn't mind random ramblings. Judging by some posts I've seen by "Morality," it seems that random ramblings are all right here. By the way, I love Morality, and I think I would like to marry him.
Today I was musing about the "cover up" of the 2x2 history. Some think it has been covered up, some think it hasn't. Here's what I observed first-hand.
I first heard of the book, The Secret Sect, back in the mid to early '80s. This was the same time that all the friends in the area in which I lived heard of the book. When the word got out that the book existed, the workers told everyone not to read the book. Most of them claimed not to have read it themselves, but they said that it was written by bitter, unwilling people who wanted to "destroy God's fellowship." They said it was the devil's work and that it would only "sow doubts" in people's minds and cause them to "lose out."
I have a couple of sub-thoughts about this:
1. If the workers had not read the book, how did they know what it said? Since the people who wrote the book live in Australia, how do workers in North America, who have never met them, know that the authors are bitter or unwilling? 2. Now, I haven't read The Secret Sect, but I've heard it traces the history of the 2x2s. So, when the workers say that it will "plant doubts," what kind of doubts are they referring to? The Bible tells us to have faith in, and not to doubt, Jesus or God. Are the workers worried that the friends will doubt Jesus, or doubt the things they have heard in 2x2 group? 3. If people come to find that the 2x2s are not what they thought, and they leave the 2x2s, but continue on in Jesus, what have they "lost out" on?
After the workers warned people away from the book, most feared the amorphous "doubts" they had been warned of and the prospect of "losing out," and did not read the book. Although they did not know what the book said or know anything about he authors, the friends went about repeating what the workers had told them re: "bitter," "unwilling," and "doubts."
Some friends however, did read The Secret Sect. And of those who read it, some felt that their spiritual leaders, in whom they had placed great trust, had deceived them. They decided to leave the fellowship that had long been a large part of their lives. Upon leaving, some wanted those they were leaving behind to understand why they were leaving, so they wrote letters of explanation, later termed "exit letters."
Again, the workers managed a pre-emptive strike on the letters. The workers reached most friends before the letters arrived and told them not to read the letters, lest the authors of the letters plant "doubts" in the minds of the friends. Again, the workers did not know what the letters said, but surely they suspected that the letters contained information about the origins of the 2x2s. They pre-labeled the letters "garbage" or "doubt-producing" and frightened the friends away from reading them. Many friends threw the letters away unopened.
In the '90's, some other people who had left the 2x2s created web sites and posted the story of the 2x2 history on the Internet. Some also posted other widely unknown information about the 2x2 hierarchy, finances, and organization. Some also posted stories of excommunications and scandals within the 2x2s.
Although many workers claim not to have reviewed the sites on the Internet, some have warned the friends against reading them. Though some workers claim not to know first-hand what is written on the net, and they do not know the people who have written it, they have labeled it "lies" and "garbage" written by "bitter, unwilling people who hate those of us who uphold God's word." Some workers have warned some friends that reading these sites will be harmful to their chances of salvation. Fearing for their salvation, most friends will not read the sites, and many of those who have read them, patently deny and discredit all they have read. Although most friends do not know what is written on the Internet, or what kind of people have written the information, many friends go about repeating what they have been told re: "bitter," "unwilling," "lies," and "hate those who uphold God's word."
Meanwhile, over all these years, many friends have never heard a worker state openly and unequivocally that William Irvine started (or re-started?) the 2x2 group back in 1897, or 1901. Many friends have heard workers state that the 2x2s came along in an unbroken line of succession from Jesus. Many have also heard the workers adamantly deny any human founder, and differentiate themselves from "false churches" based on this exact point. More sub-thoughts:
1. If people who have never read The Secret Sect, the exit letters, or the Internet sites are telling other people the nature of the information printed therein, isn't that the blind leading the blind? 2. If there is no cover up operation going on regarding the 2x2 origins, why don't the workers want the friends reading any of the sources of information that contain the story of the origins? 3. I've heard workers speak openly about certain aspects of the old days, but they always stop short of mentioning the beginning (or revival?) with Irvine or Cooney. If the origins are not a secret, why are they mostly unmentioned in the USA? Why wouldn't the origins be mentioned in front of most everyone as casually as talking about the whether? 4. Is it realistic to think that every person who leaves the 2x2s and states the honest truth about the origins is necessarily "bitter"? If a person leaves the 2x2s and continues to live their lives with the same level of self-denial, are they necessarily "unwilling" for what the Bible teaches? Or, are they just "unwilling" to have fellowship with spiritual leaders they no longer trust? And is it a grave sin to be unwilling for fellowship with those that one doesn't trust? 5. How would telling the truth about history "destroy God's work"? Telling the truth about a matter can destroy a deception. Is deception God's work?
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Post by to wtbwg on Sept 8, 2007 1:37:57 GMT -5
Forever. It's not. A lot. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeshhhhh. M. Nobody's forcing you to answer. If you don't want to post, don't post. Jeeeez, get a life.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 8, 2007 1:38:55 GMT -5
I never said anyone forced me to answer. I just answered. Do you not see the answers were DIRECT answers to the questions asked? Hmmm. I have a life, thanks! M.
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