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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 26, 2007 14:34:58 GMT -5
This is what I was taught in FPU (Financial Peace University) class for which I paid $100 (well spent) - how to get out of debt (many references to scripture)
You will learn:
How to put together a spending plan that really works
Step-by-step how to get out of debt
The security of an emergency fund
How to confidently invest for the future
To remove the stress that comes with financial problems
The secret to improving your marriage
How to make wise insurance decisions
To take back control from creditors
The value of negotiating Big Bargains
The best way to buy and sell a home
The blessings of giving
The benefits of IRA's, 401K and other retirement plans and how they work
and much, much more!
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Post by _ on Aug 26, 2007 14:35:59 GMT -5
How is learning such things hypocritical ?
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 26, 2007 14:39:49 GMT -5
Here's an email from Good Shephered Community church.
What do you think?
This weekend we will take another special "End-of-the-Month" offering which will be applied to the Worship Center loan. The current balance is $1.85 million. Thank you for helping us "pay down" this loan prior to building the Learning Center! By the way, have you taken a look at the construction site? In order to keep our permits current, we have begun a portion of the foundation work. Here are some recent pictures...
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 26, 2007 14:50:41 GMT -5
Ministry is so much more than money. Now there's an understatement! Still, money matters. That's why our Lord talked more about it than heaven or hell. And that's why he viewed money as a measure of our hearts. So this budget is something of a measure of our hearts as a church family. It's a good heart-consistent, enduring, and life-breathing. And like most of our hearts, it could use some more exercise...smile. The more we give, the more our mission is enhanced. So view this budget as one form of measuring our mission and our heart for it. And ask yourself, "What is my part in this ministry budget?"
Thanks for reading,
Stu
(Lead Pastor at Good Shepherd Community Church)
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 26, 2007 14:58:10 GMT -5
Dear Friend: “Are we there yet?” We’ve all heard those words from the backseat of the car. “Almost, but first we have to…” was our most common reply. Here at Good Shepherd I’m often asked that question about the next phase of our building project—The Learning Center. “Are we ready to build yet?” My response is the purpose of this letter. “Almost, but first we have to pay down the existing loan.” Here’s a quick building update. We all know how desperately we need the additional educational wing. We’re using every nook and cranny of existing space. But before we can build this next and final phase, we must first pay down the existing debt. Our new Worship Center costs totaled about $10.35 million. In addition we paid upfront preparation cost of $730,000 that included access road and land improvements. In just three years, the time we’ve been in our new building, we’ve already paid $7.5 million of that total! Congratulations, that’s huge! Our remaining loan is $2.94 million. Let’s pay that down! Here’s the plan: Good Shepherd’s Operation Zero Debt. It’s really simple. Modeling the Financial Peace University (FPU) principles (which 642 from Good Shepherd have attended!), we are going to pay off the balance of the loan “with Gazelle Intensity.” I have enclosed a brochure that will explain all the details, but here are the key elements in a nutshell: 1. We will keep 3 months of mortgage payment reserve ($26,920/month) in the bank. Beyond that, everything that comes into the Worship Center (WC) fund will be applied immediately to paying down the principal. 2. We will keep a set amount in our General Fund “Emergency Reserve” account per the Elder’s instruction. The Elders will direct General Fund amounts beyond that reserve figure to paying down the loan principal “like a gazelle.” 3. We will designate our annual End-of-the-Year Offering (Dec 16, 17) to pay down the loan principle. 4. Beginning the end of January, we will have special End-of-the-Month offerings in 2007 that will go to the pay-down of principal. 5. We will communicate our progress regularly through Enews, Newsletter, Website, and bulletin. Like my littlest grandson’s hero, Bob the Builder, says, “We can do it. Yes, we can.” Please pray with me. Please sacrifice with me. And by working together, we will chisel that balance down. Then we will be in a position to start the Learning Center project! Like our ultimate Hero says, “Live for your heavenly Father and make the Kingdom of God your primary concern.” (Mtt 6:33 NLT) And we’ll increase our impact in East County and around the world with the simple message of Christ’s transforming power. Stu www.goodshepherdcc.org/news-calendar/newsletter.htm
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 26, 2007 15:01:03 GMT -5
I'm having trouble finding on the website how much they are going to borrow from the bank before the old loan is paid off.
Bear with me as I continue to search. I've found lots of references to how much they've received and how much left to pay off old debts and how giving money is a measure of our hearts but I haven't found how much is going to be borrowed or how they've referred to borrowing money from unbelievers is a measure of a believer's heart.
Also, no reference to how Financial Peace University is related to gettting out of debt and staying out of debt, not how to pay down loans so you can borrow even more.
But I'm still looking.
Brad
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 26, 2007 15:03:04 GMT -5
In the spirit of Financial Peace University (FPU), Good Shepherd Community Church is moving forward to pay down the loan on the Worship Center. Over 600 of our people have been learning the key principles of FPU: 1. Get yourselves on a budget 2. Develop an emergency fund 3. Pay down debt with “gazelle intensity” As a church we have our budget now in line with giving, we have established goals for our “emergency fund” and now we want to pay down “like a gazelle” the $2.94 million dollar loan balance . One encouraging note is that in the 3 years we have occupied the building we have already paid off nearly 7.5 million of the entire 10.35 million dollar project!
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 26, 2007 19:17:49 GMT -5
Brad: Is hypocricy the same thing as hypocrisy?
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Post by hehe on Aug 26, 2007 19:19:38 GMT -5
Brad: Is hypocricy the same thing as hypocrisy? hehehehe thats funny....
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 26, 2007 21:59:17 GMT -5
Brad: Is hypocricy the same thing as hypocrisy? I was intending it to be the same. I mispelled it. Is that what you were trying to say? I believe I corrected all the mispellings now. Brad
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Post by Calvin on Aug 26, 2007 23:49:03 GMT -5
Brad,
I don't understand what you are trying to get at in this post. Are you saying that the Good Shephard Community Church is being hypocrites by borrowing money? Or that they are being good Christians by trying to pay off current debt before borrowing more?
Is this the Church that you currently attend?
Thanks,
Calvin
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 27, 2007 0:41:03 GMT -5
Brad: Is hypocricy the same thing as hypocrisy? now now Git...you can't 'pick' at others if you don't want 'em pickin at you....
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Post by nope on Aug 27, 2007 0:45:30 GMT -5
Brad: Is hypocricy the same thing as hypocrisy? Nope. That would be you, GIT. The biggest hypocrite here.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 27, 2007 0:58:28 GMT -5
Not even close. But...we're all entitled to our own opinions, so...you've just heard mine.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 27, 2007 1:14:04 GMT -5
Brad, I don't understand what you are trying to get at in this post. Are you saying that the Good Shephard Community Church is being hypocrites by borrowing money? Or that they are being good Christians by trying to pay off current debt before borrowing more? Is this the Church that you currently attend? Thanks, Calvin This is the church I used to attend until I found out they were not concerned about following the Bible on big decisions. Fact: The debtor is servant to the lender. It's good to pay off debts and be debt free. Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. It's bad to borrow money because it increases debt. Their goal is to encourage people to have zero debt, but the churches goal of paying off their loan was to borrow more money. They teach that your giving is a reflection of your heart. My question to them was "If giving is a reflection of our heart, what is your borrowing money a reflection of?" I haven't heard back from them on that. I know you can figure out the rest. Brad
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Posts: 71
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Post by _ on Aug 27, 2007 1:20:17 GMT -5
FOR BRAD - Why do we think it is sometimes biblically permissible to borrow money?
1.1. The apparent prohibitions of debt are not absolute prohibitions.
For example, George Mueller repeatedly cited Romans 13:8 as the decisive verse for not going into debt. It says, “Owe no one anything except to love each other; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.” Was Mueller right to use the text to rule out all borrowing? We don’t think so. Why?
1.1.1. If we take it absolutely, it not only rules out borrowing a rake from your neighbor, but also contradicts texts in the Bible that give instruction for how to lend, since lending makes you complicit in someone’s borrowing. For example, Psalm 37:26: “[The righteous] is ever lending generously, and his children become a blessing.” Or Psalm 112:5: “It is well with a man who deals generously and lends; who conducts his affairs with justice.” (See also Exodus 22:25; Deuteronomy 28:12; 23:19.) If lending only put borrowers in the position of sinning, would it be righteous to be “ever lending”?
1.1.2. But the context suggests that we should not take Romans 13:8 as an absolute prohibition of borrowing. Notice the parallels between verses 7 and 8: “Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. 8Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.” Take note of the words “what is owed” in verse 7, which we are to pay back, and the words “Owe no one anything” in verse 8. The words “owed” (v. 7) and “owe” (v.8) are related in Greek just as they are in English:
apodote pasin tas opheilas (“Pay to all what is owed”)
mëdeni mëden opheilete (“Owe no one anything”)
Verse 7 says it is right to “owe” “taxes,” “revenue,” etc., provided we “pay what is owed.” Since verse 8 uses the same kind of word for “what is owed,” we should take it to mean: Yes, when you have a debt, pay it. End your obligations each time they arise. Every time the bill comes in the mail, pay it and be done with it so that it is not owed anymore. Except in the case of love! Never end that obligation. When you pay your bill (or your mortgage payment!) you are done with it until another comes. You have kept your obligation. But when we have loved someone, we are just as much in debt to love them again immediately as we were before—or we should be!
But in the sermon I preached on July 24 I pointed out that this is not all verse 8 is saying. Since the debt of “honor” is in verse 7 as well as the debt of “taxes,” and since honoring people is not a debt that can be paid up and put away like taxes, therefore verse 8 can’t merely mean: Love is in a category different from the debts of verse 7, namely, it can’t be paid up. No, that won’t work because verse 7 also has debts like “respect” and “honor,” not just taxes and revenue, and like love, honor and respect also can’t be paid up. So we would have to hear verse 8 like this: “Owe no one honor . . . except to love each other.” In other words, the way to owe honor is to do it lovingly. That is, let every debt you pay be an act of love. (See the sermon for July 24 for more on this.)
1.2. The warnings against the dangers of debt describe what may happen, not what must happen, and usually picture the exploitation of the poor by the rich. Our situation is very different.
1.2.1. For example, Proverbs 22:7 says, “The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the lender’s slave.” Both halves of this proverb describe what often happens, but do not condone either result. The rich are often harsh and oppress the poor; the lender often extorts slave labor from a poor borrower who has no collateral but must sell himself, or precious things, to pay. The fact that both of these situations often happened was a warning to keep ourselves from the kind of poverty that must depend on the rich for life.
1.2.2. This is not our situation at Bethlehem. We are not poor by biblical standards, but rich. We are not borrowing out of distress or desperation, but out of strategic planning from a position of economic strength, not weakness (consider the worth of the downtown campus owned debt free, and the resources behind several thousand supporters). We are not without collateral but have a building that can be sold to pay the debt at any time. No one’s food and shelter or job is put at risk by the loan we have taken on the North Campus.
1.2.3. The threat of foreclosure and loss in the event of our inability to pay off the loan is not serious for two reasons. First, there is no reason to believe it will happen, if we are obedient to God’s call on our lives (“No good thing does he withhold from those who walk uprightly,” Psalm 84:11). Second, even if it does happen, we sell the building and move back into a leasing situation or bring everyone back to the Downtown Campus for a short season with more services till we figure out God’s next step. In all of this we are never in a situation envisioned in the biblical warnings against debt.
1.3. The Bible condones and regulates some lending and borrowing.
For example, Jesus said to a man who squandered his “one talent”: “Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest” (Matthew 25:27). We realize that Jesus is not focusing his teaching here on the legitimacy of banking. Nevertheless we assume he did not illustrate his point with an unlawful suggestion—namely, investing money with banks that pay interest, and presumably make loans to earn the money to pay the interest.
Also Deuteronomy 15:7-8 says, “If among you, one of your brothers should become poor . . . you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.” Even more directly to the point of borrowing, Exodus 22:14 says, “If a man borrows anything of his neighbor, and it is injured or dies, the owner not being with it, he shall make full restitution.” And Deuteronomy 24:10 says, “When you make your neighbor a loan of any sort, you shall not go into his house to collect his pledge.” And in 2 Kings 4:3 Elisha instructs the widow, “Go outside, borrow vessels from all your neighbors, empty vessels and not too few.”
1.4. The biblical opposition to charging interest does not seem to be absolute and seems to be mainly not a condemnation of banking, but of personally profiteering at another’s expense.
The text cited in 1.3 from Matthew 25:27 seems to say that Jesus did not oppose banking that charged interest. This is probably because he saw a difference between the lending among brothers in need (as in Exodus 22:25 and Deuteronomy 23:19) and the strategic borrowing and lending as part of an economy that sometimes needs large capital outlays for construction and purchasing. We don’t think the Bible had anything like modern banking in view when it forbade interest-charging.
1.5. Conclusion: For these reasons, we do not think the Bible forbids borrowing and lending in all circumstances, neither among brothers and sisters in need, nor at the level of strategic business or ministry decisions.
From www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2005/1299_How_the_Elders_of_Bethlehem_Baptist_Church_Decided_That_It_Was_Biblical_and_Wise_to_Borrow_Money_to_Purchase_the_North_Campus/
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Post by _ on Aug 27, 2007 1:21:20 GMT -5
Brad,
You are incorrect in your view of Romans 13:8... Please study the verse in the context of the Whole bible...
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Post by Peacemaker on Aug 27, 2007 1:33:42 GMT -5
Brad: Is hypocricy the same thing as hypocrisy? Nope. That would be you, GIT. The biggest hypocrite here. Yipes! Yet another personal attack, why does it have to develop in to personal attacks? By the way, I thought this Board was all about the so-called 2x2 ministry. Why is Brad discussing hypocrisy in another church? Just wondering.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 27, 2007 1:34:58 GMT -5
Peacemaker: Who knows why Bradley discusses anything? Lol M.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 27, 2007 1:35:46 GMT -5
Brad, You are incorrect in your view of Romans 13:8... Please study the verse in the context of the Whole bible... Brian, I agree. While I believe it is correct in principle, it's a bit out of focus. I believe now after reviewing the scripture it would've been better to use the following verse for the above context. Pro 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. I agree what I was taught about how to use those verses was incorrect. Thanks for the check on that. Brad
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Post by Peacemaker on Aug 27, 2007 1:38:43 GMT -5
Peacemaker: Who knows why Bradley discusses anything? Lol M. Point taken.
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Post by speaking of which on Aug 27, 2007 2:08:47 GMT -5
Nope. That would be you, GIT. The biggest hypocrite here. Yipes! Yet another personal attack, why does it have to develop in to personal attacks? By the way, I thought this Board was all about the so-called 2x2 ministry. Why is Brad discussing hypocrisy in another church? Just wondering. Dunno, why is GIT discussing problems in other churches besides 2x2s? Just wondering. Are you gonna call him on that, or are you just another 2x2 apologetic?
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 27, 2007 2:43:30 GMT -5
Nope. That would be you, GIT. The biggest hypocrite here.
Could I respectfully ask you to list any incidents of hypocrisy which I have been guilty of perpetrating, please?
And if there is no evidence of hypocrisy, could I also politely ask you to withdraw your comment?
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Post by ii on Aug 27, 2007 4:11:13 GMT -5
Nope. That would be you, GIT. The biggest hypocrite here.Could I respectfully ask you to list any incidents of hypocrisy which I have been guilty of perpetrating, please? And if there is no evidence of hypocrisy, could I also politely ask you to withdraw your comment? that body will not because they cannot nor will they withdraw because their pride will get in the way
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Post by not really on Aug 27, 2007 8:20:36 GMT -5
Nope. That would be you, GIT. The biggest hypocrite here.Could I respectfully ask you to list any incidents of hypocrisy which I have been guilty of perpetrating, please? And if there is no evidence of hypocrisy, could I also politely ask you to withdraw your comment? No, you may not ask. No, the comment will not be withdrawn. You ARE the biggest hypocrite on this board.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 27, 2007 12:25:26 GMT -5
You ARE...wow. Seems somone needs to go back to school to learn the difference between fact and opinion. M.
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facts for the blind lady
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Post by facts for the blind lady on Aug 27, 2007 13:03:38 GMT -5
You ARE...wow. Seems somone needs to go back to school to learn the difference between fact and opinion. M. Fact 1: GIT states that those outside of 2x2ism are doomed to hell for not being 2x2s. Fact 2: GIT states that exes are judgmental and that he (GIT) is not. Fact 3: You are blind as a bat.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 27, 2007 13:25:12 GMT -5
v. good. you're improving. At least you go that the first two right (If he did state those things, and I guess he did?) 2/3 ain't bad as the song goes! M.
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