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Post by baffled on Aug 24, 2007 10:46:18 GMT -5
At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one belong to a religion (Truth or otherwise)?
At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one meet regularly with other believers (Truth or otherwise)?
Did this really start with Jesus? I find no evidence that it does. I read the KJV and NIV and haven't been able to find a single reference to Jesus saying something to the effect of:
"Join a group of believers to follow me" or "Meet every <x> days with other believers to follow me".
Maybe it's there and I'm just not seeing it.
Where do these notions come from?
Many of you know the bible better than I and if it's not there, I'm sure one of you bible history buffs can enlighten me.
Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2007 18:36:06 GMT -5
Religion is mans idea of what God requires of us.
Being a child of God is a soul searching journey we must all make on our own. There are those among us also on that journey and so we are able to help each oher along the way.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 24, 2007 20:55:17 GMT -5
You're right--it's not in the Bible. That doesn't mean its wrong, but it's not required or commanded. Many people aren't comfortable in organized religion settings.
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Post by H7SP4UT on Aug 24, 2007 21:34:57 GMT -5
An interesting blogsite that touches on moving from a performance-based religious ethic toward God to a relationship deeply rooted in the Father’s affection. lifestream.org/blog/At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one belong to a religion (Truth or otherwise)? At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one meet regularly with other believers (Truth or otherwise)? Did this really start with Jesus? I find no evidence that it does. I read the KJV and NIV and haven't been able to find a single reference to Jesus saying something to the effect of: "Join a group of believers to follow me" or "Meet every <x> days with other believers to follow me". Maybe it's there and I'm just not seeing it. Where do these notions come from? Many of you know the bible better than I and if it's not there, I'm sure one of you bible history buffs can enlighten me. Thanks.
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Post by Jessi on Aug 25, 2007 14:54:11 GMT -5
IF ONE ISN'T A CHRISTIAN, he is either elect and will come to Jesus . . . or he perishes -- the message of the cross being foolishness to him. So, according to the Bible, there appear to be only two religions: Christianity . . . and everything else.
PONDERING BIBLICAL CHARACTERS of the OT AND the NT, I ask myself . . . is there really such a thing as a "GOOD" Christian if there is no one who is good? When you think about it, there were heinous crimes committed by God's people in both testaments--yet, they were still saved by God's mercy and Grace alone, who chooses whomever He will to save. Biblically, Christ didn't die for any righteous, but the ungodly (Rom 5:6).
WE ARE JUSTIFIED. We are DECLARED righteous ONLY through Christ, not because of anything we have done on our own. So we are not righteous in the eyes of God apart from Jesus, but only pronounced righteous because of the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, our Savior. I wouldn't imagine ANY Christian willing to pronounce himself a "good Christian."
JESUS IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH (Eph 1:22, 5:23, Col 1:18-20). If one doesn’t belong to a Church, a body of people who believe in Jesus, does he belong to Jesus? He Himself says that if a brother is in sin, we must go to him and tell him. If he doesn’t listen, bring a couple others. If he still does not repent, take it BEFORE THE CHURCH (Matt 18:17) – of which He is head. The Church, obviously couldn’t mean the global church, but a local body of Christians. The church existed then. Jesus was giving them guidelines for church discipline.
JESUS SPEAKS TO LOCAL Churches in Revelation. He is not talking to the global church, or just every person who believes in Him, but names the places or provinces where these churches are, making them specific local bodies of Christians.
HEBREWS 10:25 says that we should not forsake gathering together - which makes sense . . . because Jesus himself had many “one-anothering” statements that specifically were meant for Christians. “for by this shall they know you, your love one for another” (Jn 13:35). How will the world know Christians if they are not around each other to love each other?
BELIEVE JESUS AND THOSE HE SENT: If we believe the words of Jesus and he said, “20Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me." (Jn 13:20), then we must believe that whoever wrote the Bible was sent by Jesus and therefore to be believed.
BELIEVE ONLY WHAT JESUS SAID AS TRUE? If we do not believe parts of what the Bible says, how can we believe only what Jesus said . . . which is ONLY contained in the Bible and nowhere else? Seems it’s all or nothing. Either we believe all of the Bible, or what’s the point?
JESUS SENT THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS . . . So, whoever believes in Jesus must believe in whomever he sent. Jesus even prayed for those who would believe through the WORDS of the disciples he was praying for in Jn 17:20-21 . . . whose words ended up as Scripture.
CAN ONE REALLY LOVE OTHER CHRISTIANS but not know or hang out with them, to let the world see? Then again, in order for the world to see Christians love other Christians, Christians are to interact with the world! Go out into the world and make disciples (Mk 16:15).
GOD HIMSELF SAID, “It is not good for man to be alone.” So, he made him a helper, to have more people so there could be family and fellowship – (Gen 2:18), all analogous to the Trinity and the fellowship of the Godhead before the world began.
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
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Post by Is it true on Aug 25, 2007 15:01:12 GMT -5
I was reading the God is Father and Mother to all of creation?
How can this add up is there another being involved?
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Post by shhh ee on Aug 25, 2007 15:03:01 GMT -5
I was reading the God is Father and Mother to all of creation? How can this add up is there another being involved? shhhh, don't confuse poor Jessi, she is confused enough already? ;D
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Post by msconfig on Aug 25, 2007 15:14:26 GMT -5
You're right--it's not in the Bible. That doesn't mean its wrong, but it's not required or commanded. Many people aren't comfortable in organized religion settings. agreed 100%
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Post by las logged out on Aug 25, 2007 16:43:36 GMT -5
You're right--it's not in the Bible. That doesn't mean its wrong, but it's not required or commanded. Many people aren't comfortable in organized religion settings. I most certanly agree with this statement
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Post by las logged out on Aug 25, 2007 16:45:23 GMT -5
At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one belong to a religion (Truth or otherwise)? At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one meet regularly with other believers (Truth or otherwise)? Did this really start with Jesus? I find no evidence that it does. I read the KJV and NIV and haven't been able to find a single reference to Jesus saying something to the effect of: "Join a group of believers to follow me" or "Meet every <x> days with other believers to follow me". Maybe it's there and I'm just not seeing it. Where do these notions come from? Many of you know the bible better than I and if it's not there, I'm sure one of you bible history buffs can enlighten me. Thanks. I agree with this what did those who wondered around in caves of whom the world was not worthy...eh? what did they do?
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Post by Jessi on Aug 25, 2007 19:05:38 GMT -5
What is it that you agree with? The person was asking some questions. You agree with the questions?
You may be on the road to the exact thing we all came from , believing what everyone else says. As long as you put your faith in other people -- they will fail you. Most every time. But Jesus never fails. His Word is Truth -- and it says what it says regardless of whether faithless or weak Christians believe it or not.
It helps to know what others really believe before agreeing wholesale to everything they say. They could have a hidden agenda or try to influence in ways they really shouldn't.
You ironically quote what happened to the prophets of God for saying, "The Bible says - God says -- the Scriptures say . . . " But they were killed all day long -- and Jesus, the Prophet was killed by His own, the one who said to the Father, "Your Word is Truth."
Heb 11:25 . . . Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.
36Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
38of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
God's word is true apart from man's warped sense of truth. Jesus said it. The Scriptures cannot be broken.
It is not true that the Bible says nothing about the duty of belonging to a local body of Christians. It certainly does say very clearly, especially in Rom 12 and I Cor 12+.
People just choose not to believe what it DOES say because they are disobedient to the word of God. Those who defend it's truths are usually not very popular . . .
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 26, 2007 5:27:25 GMT -5
You're right--it's not in the Bible. That doesn't mean its wrong, but it's not required or commanded. Many people aren't comfortable in organized religion settings.
A good point, as usual, Cherie.
However, bear in mind that many people (such as myself) are only comfortable, and only able to function within a structured organisation. Is there not room for all?
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Post by Gloryintruth Unlogged on Aug 26, 2007 5:46:48 GMT -5
A few points in reply to Jessi.
So, according to the Bible, there appear to be only two religions: Christianity . . . and everything else.
In my understanding of the scripture, there is only the truth about God and life, and falsehood. Not religion.
PONDERING BIBLICAL CHARACTERS of the OT AND the NT, I ask myself . . . is there really such a thing as a "GOOD" Christian if there is no one who is good?
You are right in that no one is "good" (free of corruption), but it is obvious that there are some people who are "better" Christians than others. Each according to their ability.
He Himself says that if a brother is in sin, we must go to him and tell him. If he doesn’t listen, bring a couple others. If he still does not repent, take it BEFORE THE CHURCH (Matt 18:17) – of which He is head. The Church, obviously couldn’t mean the global church, but a local body of Christians. The church existed then. Jesus was giving them guidelines for church discipline.
Only if you use the King James Version of the scripture. I have great regard for the superior style and English structure of this translation, but I also acknowledge that it is extremely deficient in many ways.
Newer and more accurate versions of the Bible - such as the excellent New International Version - speak of taking one's brother to the "assembly" not to the "church". Of course "assembly" would refer to synagogue groupings.
JESUS SENT THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS . . . So, whoever believes in Jesus must believe in whomever he sent.
I respectfully disagree. We are not called to "believe in" (as in the sense of investing faith in) those whom Jesus has sent. We believe in the witness of the Holy Ghost who confirms the truth of the message spoken.
Never did the Apostles ask men to believe in them. They did request that people believe in the veracity of their message, however: "We have not spoken cunningly devised fables".
Jesus even prayed for those who would believe through the WORDS of the disciples he was praying for in Jn 17:20-21. . . whose words ended up as Scripture.
But what was the origin of those words? The Apostle tells us that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God... is "God-breathed".
Jesus said that his words will never pass away, and will outlast the physical creation. The Apostles spoke only that which had come from Jesus, or was inspired by the Holy Spirit - faithfully delivering everything they had seen and heard to the saints.
However I strongly reject the concept that a Christian absolutely must belong to a church or face doom. For many reasons that is not always possible.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2007 6:44:34 GMT -5
quote - At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one belong to a religion (Truth or otherwise)? When Jesus called people to follow him.
quote - At what point in the history of Christianity did "Being a good Christian" require that one meet regularly with other believers (Truth or otherwise)? When Jesus called people to follow him.
quote - Did this really start with Jesus? I find no evidence that it does. I read the KJV and NIV and haven't been able to find a single reference to Jesus saying something to the effect of: Yes it did.
"Join a group of believers to follow me" or "Meet every <x> days with other believers to follow me". Jesus guided and showed his approval by meeting with his people on Sundays.
quote - Maybe it's there and I'm just not seeing it. Take in the whole narrative of the NT, not just a verse. We meet together because they met together.
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Post by Jessi on Aug 26, 2007 7:28:31 GMT -5
Paul referred to the Jews' faith as a religion. I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Do you believe there are other roads that lead to heaven besides Jesus?
James 1:26-27 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
P.S. The King James is just as good as any other Biblical text. But I do post other versions. Your NIV version is practically a paraphrase. Nothing wrong with it, but I wouldn't use it for serious study. That's just me. Personal preference. It is your personal opinion that other versions are superior to KJV. No version is perfect.
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
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Post by Jessi on Aug 26, 2007 7:38:43 GMT -5
STRAW MAN I did not say this. You argue a point that was not made by me, as most of your post did. You twist and tweak the original idea and then argue against what I did not say. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by 3 on Aug 26, 2007 10:55:50 GMT -5
GIT:
You post, "However, bear in mind that many people (such as myself) are only comfortable, and only able to function within a structured organisation. Is there not room for all? "
You come across as tolerant of an opposing idea in your above comment and I love .... er, like you.... for it!
Organized religion no longer works for me but I fully acknowledge & accept that it works well for MANY people.
I knew there was a tolerant streak in you, somehwhere!
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Post by Jessi on Aug 26, 2007 14:25:08 GMT -5
Dear GiT: You are right in that no one is "good" (free of corruption), but it is obvious that there are some people who are "better" Christians than others. Each according to their ability.OK. . My comment was that I doubt you could find a Christian who would say out loud that he is a good Christian. Do you disagree? Are you a "good Christian"? Only if you use the King James Version . . . would refer to synagogue groupings.So, Jesus meant for Christians to take the matter to the Chief Scribes and Pharisees or the world who hangs out in the synagogue and have them judge, right? NIV, KJV, Amplified, ESV, and NAS all say “Church.” Church means assembly. Assembly means MEMBERS OF THE BODY, not a church building, because, as I am sure you will agree, God does not dwell in temples made with hands -- But even if it did mean synagogue, surely it does mean PEOPLE in the synagogue and not the synagogue building itself. Either way, it means the group of God’s people. The church, wherever they are. JESUS SENT THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS . . . So, whoever believes in Jesus must believe in whomever he sent. Of course, I meant believe in the words of those He sent (which words are Jesus being preached) or to believe them who He sent to speak for Him--ABOUT HIM, for nowhere have I ever intimated that anyone should believe on anyone but Christ. That would part from the Holy Word. Not that they should believe in THEM (the people) but their words (about Jesus), as Jesus prayed in Jn 17:17. Jesus even prayed for those who would believe through the WORDS of the disciples he was praying for in Jn 17:20-21. . . whose words ended up as Scripture. But what was the origin of those words? The Apostle tells us that "all scripture is given by inspiration of God... is "God-breathed" . . . Jesus said that his words will never pass away, and will outlast the physical creation. The Apostles spoke only that which had come from Jesus, or was inspired by the Holy Spirit - faithfully delivering everything they had seen and heard to the saints.I don’t know what is the argument here. We agree. The author of the words is God, which makes it all the more important, it would seem, to obey the words . . . If the Bible says it, then it's God's Word. One can strongly reject the notion that a Christian must belong to a local body of Christians. But it still says that Christ is the head of the Church. If one is not a member of a church, he MAY BE A CHRISTIAN, but he’s a weak one and a disobedient one without Jesus as his head, doing what seems right in his own eyes, apart from the Word of God. Jesus works through the Church He built – otherwise, why bother mentioning the part about being a “member of the body of Christ” and go into deep detail, making the Church analogous to even the human body, with all its parts?? What is the point if it means some sort of global body of people who don’t really know each other? Of course, it means local body, where people get to know each other and serve each other and love one another as Jesus commanded. Johnny Mac, on the importance of church attendance: gty.org/resources.php?section=issues&aid=176394Christ’s Forever, Jessi
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