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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 24, 2007 4:22:30 GMT -5
i'm tired of this crap too... not long ago i posted a couple very serious questions that i wanted opinions on, have been asking for a long time, and nobody even answered.. and yet you post this same stu pid crap every day, miles and miles of stuff, over and over.... why not just start a thread called, GIT argues the same sh-, but offers no help to someone asking questions from their heart.... sounds like a good name for a thread to me. nothing personal.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 24, 2007 6:01:08 GMT -5
i'm tired of this crap too... not long ago i posted a couple very serious questions that i wanted opinions on, have been asking for a long time, and nobody even answered.. I'm truly sorry I overlooked your questions Ranman. I don't always read every thread. If you are still willing perhaps you could repost your questions, or direct me to the original thread. GIT argues the same sh-, but offers no help to someone asking questions from their heart.... sounds like a good name for a thread to me. nothing personal.As I said above, I apologise sincerely. An honest question deserves an honest answer. Please forgive my oversight.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 24, 2007 10:06:26 GMT -5
Howdy GIT, Me- Pretty cool feeling isn't it? When we truly live under the grace of God, (rather than just believing that there is grace...) life is much more rewarding and EASY! You- Life is a species of suffering. Grace does not allieviate this.Life is a species of suffering? We all suffer, but my point is that when living under grace, we don't have to concern ourselves with trying to earn our salvation. We no longer live under 'the law', but simply live by following the teaching of Jesus. If you are living your life by the greatest commandment of all, which is love; then by default (for lack of a better way to put it) any other law will not be broken, and our works will also be good. Thus for me, I no longer suffer as I once did, and life is easy for me because I turn my cares and concerns over to Jesus/God through prayer. (and just for the record, yes I have lots of cares and concerns) Me I'm one of those who know that this includes some of the f&w's also, and that it is not WHERE we worship, but HOW.You- You'd be in a minority Scott if you believe the Friends and Workers are Christians.Feel free to put me in the minority GIT, We are known by our 'fruits'. Our relationship with Jesus/God is personal and there is no mediator between us and God other than Jesus. I don't find salvation by going to the church I attend, but I do find fellowship. Me- Getting close to other Christians has actually been very easy for me. I still have a wary eye/heart/ears for any church/denomination, but those who are true Christians (no matter the denomination) are easy for me to fellowship with. I suppose it has a lot to do with my personality though, which lets me 'live and let live', and to 'let go and let God'.You- I would not be comfortable "letting go and letting God". God is our Creator, our Judge, and our Lawgiver, but not our friend. God cannot bear to look on our sins, remember. We are abhorrent in his sight - sinners in the hands of an angry God. God is to be feared and respected, not befriended. Since I believe Jesus is God (and no we don't need to debate this) and the Holy Spirit is God, I live my life through the guidance of the 'Comforter', and turn all my cares and concerns over to Jesus/God. I see them as Father,Brother, Friend, and anything else that I personally want to see them as. We have a really good relationship....... Scott
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Post by selah on Aug 24, 2007 10:28:33 GMT -5
I once viewed God this way as well. It's quite sad really. If this was the way He wanted us to view Him, why would He present Himself as our "Father?"
Perhaps some have had earthly fathers that are like this. They see you as a bad child, and they are angry with you all the time. As a child you have an extreme fear of that father and his judgement, resulting in no intimate relationship with him at all, and no experience of his love.
Of course God hates sin, but He LOVES people. In fact, He loved them so much, He provided a way of redemption for them. He created man for His own pleasure, and He desires to have an intimate loving relationship with us....not a dictatorship in which we cower and cringe. We are not abhorrent in His sight. We are clothed with Christ. His righteousness is credited to us, and THAT is what God sees when He looks on us, as long as we have received this miraculous gift.
Our heavenly Father loves you and me. Until you open yourself to that possibility, your relationship with Him will never be what He desires.
Blessings, Linda
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ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Aug 24, 2007 12:11:50 GMT -5
"Perhaps some have had earthly fathers that are like this. They see you as a bad child, and they are angry with you all the time. As a child you have an extreme fear of that father and his judgment, resulting in no intimate relationship with him at all, and no experience of his love."
Linda, you have described my relationship with my earthly father and also with God. I "saw" God as hateful and out to punish me at will. As a B&R I never felt or saw love; I only heard and felt fear in mtgs and at home. Little wonder I wanted NOTHING to do with my family and especially workers or God for 50 years.
I now know God as love & forgiveness. Through by chance seeing Charles Stanley on TV and soaking up his every word did I start on my path to finding out who God really is. I have sadness for all those years of hate & contempt for the way I was raised in a hard-core 2x2 home. With God's help and going to a Bible-based church have I been able to forgive my earthly father and know the real love of God and his forgiveness.
Thank you for posting those two sentences. You summed up my life much better than I could. I see it in words is another step for me in healing. It's been a long process; finding this board and people like you here that I value your thoughts has also been a great healer for me.
Thank you ann
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 24, 2007 12:30:45 GMT -5
i'm tired of this crap too... not long ago i posted a couple very serious questions that i wanted opinions on, have been asking for a long time, and nobody even answered.. I'm truly sorry I overlooked your questions Ranman. I don't always read every thread. If you are still willing perhaps you could repost your questions, or direct me to the original thread. GIT argues the same sh-, but offers no help to someone asking questions from their heart.... sounds like a good name for a thread to me. nothing personal.As I said above, I apologise sincerely. An honest question deserves an honest answer. Please forgive my oversight. its on the "my beliefs" thread. but now i'd rather you not answer, as i don't need the attention. pm me if you want... and i'm sorry i got uppity....ok?
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Post by It appears on Aug 24, 2007 13:31:54 GMT -5
It appears that man makes God into his own image.....
Take a look at the Biblical characteristics that you allow yourself to believe and you can pretty well design "Him" anyway you want to, because there is scripture to verify whatever you want to believe.......a god who abhors his creation and cannot look at our "sin"..... ......or the loving God Jesus spoke of.
Then take a close look at yourself and invariably you will find that the God you believe in at any particular time in your life is a direct mirror of who you are.
Aren't we glad our perceptions of him changes with growth and understanding? Because as we change our perception from the angry mean God that we once believed him to be....
We become the benevolent, kind, loving person we believe He is!
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Post by So true on Aug 24, 2007 14:22:46 GMT -5
It appears that man makes God into his own image..... Take a look at the Biblical characteristics that you allow yourself to believe and you can pretty well design "Him" anyway you want to, because there is scripture to verify whatever you want to believe.......a god who abhors his creation and cannot look at our "sin"..... ......or the loving God Jesus spoke of. Then take a close look at yourself and invariably you will find that the God you believe in at any particular time in your life is a direct mirror of who you are. Aren't we glad our perceptions of him changes with growth and understanding? Because as we change our perception from the angry mean God that we once believed him to be.... We become the benevolent, kind, loving person we believe He is! So true. We see others (including God) not as they are, but as we are.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 24, 2007 18:13:00 GMT -5
I once viewed God this way as well. It's quite sad really. If this was the way He wanted us to view Him, why would He present Himself as our "Father?"
Interesting thoughts Linda. I enjoyed reading your post (and the posts of others - Scott etc). I believe calling God "Father" is strictly a relational description. Because God made us, and because he is the author of our spirits, he can be described as our "Father" in the same way that Albert Einstein is the "father" of the Theory of Relativity, or Gregor Mendel is the "father" of genetics.
God is so far above us, he doesn't have relationships with us as we understand them. I personally don't often address God as "Father" because I don't always feel like a "child". I prefer the term LORD, which sums up God's majesty and ultimate power over every living thing.
Perhaps some have had earthly fathers that are like this. They see you as a bad child, and they are angry with you all the time. As a child you have an extreme fear of that father and his judgement, resulting in no intimate relationship with him at all, and no experience of his love.
This statement comes a little too close for comfort. I'm not going to comment.
Of course God hates sin, but He LOVES people.
H'mmm. I tend to believe God hates sin and sinners. I see no evidence of a God who loves sinners.
In fact, He loved them so much, He provided a way of redemption for them. He created man for His own pleasure, and He desires to have an intimate loving relationship with us....not a dictatorship in which we cower and cringe.
I doubt God is interested in us for an intimate relationship! He knows everything about us already! We are told our duty: to obey God and keep his commandments. That's the sum and substance of the Bible's message. Obedience leads to life, disobedience leads to the outpouring of God's wrath. Simple.
We are not abhorrent in His sight. We are clothed with Christ. His righteousness is credited to us, and THAT is what God sees when He looks on us, as long as we have received this miraculous gift.
Yes! We trust in Christ to protect us at the Last Day from the wrath and judgement of God. This is true.
Our heavenly Father loves you and me. Until you open yourself to that possibility, your relationship with Him will never be what He desires.
I have long dispensed with believing in a God that runs around loving everyone. That is simply not borne out by experience, by the scriptures, or by Jesus. Love is a concept in the mind, not in the heart - God loves us by planning a way of escape from hell, not in some emotional way.
I have laboured for God all the days of my life even to the point of mental exhaustion, confusion, and physical paralysis, because I have learnt that God does not miraculously do anything for us, like a "doting daddy in the sky". On the other hand, he does sometimes assists us in doing it ourselves.
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Post by To GIT on Aug 24, 2007 19:04:20 GMT -5
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
(Rom 5:6-8)
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
(Jas 2:23)
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Post by To GIT on Aug 24, 2007 19:28:02 GMT -5
"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" "
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
"For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
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Post by Kat on Aug 24, 2007 19:44:34 GMT -5
Glory In Truth, May I suggest this most interesting piece for your literary repertoire? I do believe you may enjoy the level on which it is written and the dialogue. www.ctsfw.edu/etext/luther/bondage/Kat
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Post by selah on Aug 24, 2007 20:40:13 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments GIT. I appreciate this kind of discussion, and I'm enjoying getting to know you a little better. We don't agree on some pretty important things, but there's no reason we can't discuss them together. It seems we have the same goal...we desire truth, and that comes through seeking, discovery and revelation.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Yes, He does, but we have a lot to learn about Him. He desires that we know Him. John 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
This is not the "sum and substance of the Bible's message" from my perspective. Eternal life with our Creator in the realm of the Spirit is the sum and substance of the Bible's message. The life of Christ IN us produces obedience. Without His life IN us, we are destined to an eternity outside of relationship with our Father, no matter how meticulous we've been in our obedience to what we understand as His will.
Think of it like this. Say you knew a man who epitomized a "wonderful father" for you. You learned all about him. You found out what his standards are. You made it your life's ambition to do all of the things he likes, because you thought that would somehow make him "your" father. But would it? How would that make him your father? How would that make you his child? It wouldn't. It might make you like him in some ways, but you would not literally be his child. In Christ, we literally become God's children. We become part of the Spirit family. Without the new birth we are merely part of the human family.
GIT, I agree that God is our Father as in He is our Creator...but the Bible teaches God as our Father specifically because we are born of His Spirit...which means we are actually His offspring. This is not just an allegory. We actually are born into the God species or family. Until we shed our physical bodies, we live in both dimensions, but our home is in the Spirit realm, if we've experienced the new birth.
John 3:6-8Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
God miraculously does incredibly amazing things for us every second! Think about breathing for a minute. God designed that. Think about loving. We couldn't conjure up such an intense emotion by ourselves. God is not a "doting daddy in the sky," but He is a present, loving, compassionate, merciful Father who desires more than anything, for us to simply be restored to relationship with Him. That's why He invested Himself in the person of Jesus Christ to redeem us, and that was while we were yet sinners! Now that's love!
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 24, 2007 21:24:21 GMT -5
Thanks for that wonderful post Linda! Scott
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 24, 2007 23:20:30 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments GIT. I appreciate this kind of discussion, and I'm enjoying getting to know you a little better. We don't agree on some pretty important things, but there's no reason we can't discuss them together.
This is certainly the way it should be. I appreciated your comments, although of course, there is a difference between our viewpoints. But, this is enriching banter!
It seems we have the same goal...we desire truth, and that comes through seeking, discovery and revelation.
I would hope this would be true of me, as it certainly seems true of you, Linda.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I think what this text means is that God loves purity, and sent Christ to purge us from our sins. But by nature we are abhorrent to God, remember that right back at the beginning, God wished he had not made man. I think the NIV renders it this way: "And God said, "I wish I had not made man!". His love is seen in that he suffers with us, although he repented of making us.
But it is also important to remember that God wanted us to sin in the Garden. He predestinated that it should be that way. And so the human story begins with Adam and Eve and Cain all going to hell due to their predestination by God. Some people God ordains to life, some to death. We have no say in the matter.
And because God is impassive, I don't think he sees human destruction in the same way - God delights in judgement, and delights in the destruction of sin.
Yes, He does, but we have a lot to learn about Him. He desires that we know Him.
I think God wants us to obey: "Obedience is better than sacrifice".
John 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
It is my belief that Jesus was talking only to the Apostles here.
This is not the "sum and substance of the Bible's message" from my perspective. Eternal life with our Creator in the realm of the Spirit is the sum and substance of the Bible's message.
I believe that we will be placed bodily on a new earth. I don't believe we'll be subsumed into a spiritual state. God will remain a spirit, but we will remain clothed in matter.
God does not want all men to be with him in eternity. He has predestinated only a few; only the remnant to dwell with him. I believe, like Augustine believed, that the vast majority of the human race will be damned, and indeed, is damned already, for God ordained them to hell.
The life of Christ IN us produces obedience. Without His life IN us, we are destined to an eternity outside of relationship with our Father, no matter how meticulous we've been in our obedience to what we understand as His will.
We can't rely on Christ to do our works for us!
In Christ, we literally become God's children. We become part of the Spirit family. Without the new birth we are merely part of the human family.
I believe we figuratively become God's children, not literally his children. "God's children" are simply the tiny portion of humanity who have been predestinated to Heaven.
God miraculously does incredibly amazing things for us every second! Think about breathing for a minute.
I think it is in bad form to look at humanity as a kind of miracle. Human beings are the most corrupt, disgusting and evil of God's creatures. All of us are twisted, broken and damaged forms of live. I doubt God sees us as miracles!
God designed that. Think about loving. We couldn't conjure up such an intense emotion by ourselves.
Love always equates to pain and suffering. It is beautiful in some ways, but it is also the worst of human emotions; destructive, petty, bringer of jealousy and envy. And it should not be frittered out like hotcakes - scripture teaches us not to love the world, anything in the world, or to even love our own lives.
Because it is so volatile and unpredictable, love is strictly prescribed by the Bible. The concept we are to walk through a cloud of love every day and be some kind of Christian hippie, is, I believe wrong. Love must be carefully controlled. Indeed, in one way of thinking, love is the tribute we pay to God, although admittedly, to "love God" is the commandment I find the hardest to keep, and I always have found this difficult, from a child.
He is a present, loving, compassionate, merciful Father
I don't believe he is present. God is as far above us as the heavens are above the earth. We cannot really know God in this emotional sense, ever.
I agree with you though. God is merciful to a certain degree - he gives us second chances sometimes before he chastises us, and sometimes God's mercy is found in his chastisement, discipline and hard experiences. I am a firm believer in the concept that it is only through suffering, pain, tears, blood and toil that we get closer to Heaven.
who desires more than anything, for us to simply be restored to relationship with Him.
In my perspective, God's greatest desire is to see justice wrought in the earth, evil-doers brought to book, sin expunged, and sinners punished. God is the Judge, both unrelenting and stern. To forget that and to view him as a cosmic boyfriend is not to see him as he really is.
Not everyone thinks as I do, of course, but I also wonder why some people seem to look forward so much to eternal life as though it were an active thing.
I disagree with this perception, partly because I don't even like life! (I see no functional difference between life and death). But I do look forward to an eternity of rest, which is what the Bible teaches. To be able to simply stop working, labouring, ceasing from thoughts, and relationships, ceasing from personal identity as we are subsumed into something greater, and even ceasing from our religious duties and obligations - just resting in the sunshine that comes from the Lamb forever. Is this not Heaven?
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Post by selah on Aug 24, 2007 23:54:16 GMT -5
Yes it is the Kingdom of Heaven, and it is at hand! I mean to say all of this is available right now through the new birth, which allows us to "see" the Kingdom (the realm of the Spirit). Of course our daily lives continue, but the priviledge of entering the Holy of Holies is open to us always, even right now, through Christ.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by FEELINGS on Aug 25, 2007 1:04:34 GMT -5
Yes it is the Kingdom of Heaven, and it is at hand! I mean to say all of this is available right now through the new birth, which allows us to "see" the Kingdom (the realm of the Spirit). Of course our daily lives continue, but the priviledge of entering the Holy of Holies is open to us always, even right now, through Christ. Blessings, Linda Hi Linda, I am the original poster, and I feel that sometimes you are the only voice of hope out there, I wish I was your best freind or you were my mom or something like that. All i get is negative negative. your thoughts must be from above.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 25, 2007 2:13:06 GMT -5
Pretty cool feeling isn't it? When we truly live under the grace of God, (rather than just believing that there is grace...) life is much more rewarding and EASY! Life is a species of suffering. Grace does not allieviate this. I'm one of those who know that this includes some of the f&w's also, and that it is not WHERE we worship, but HOW.You'd be in a minority Scott if you believe the Friends and Workers are Christians. Getting close to other Christians has actually been very easy for me. I still have a wary eye/heart/ears for any church/denomination, but those who are true Christians (no matter the denomination) are easy for me to fellowship with. I suppose it has a lot to do with my personality though, which lets me 'live and let live', and to 'let go and let God'.I would not be comfortable "letting go and letting God". God is our Creator, our Judge, and our Lawgiver, but not our friend. God cannot bear to look on our sins, remember. We are abhorrent in his sight - sinners in the hands of an angry God. God is to be feared and respected, not befriended. ha ha ha
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