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Post by Feelings on Aug 22, 2007 18:48:32 GMT -5
Well, I thougt i would post a new topic, I quit professing around 2000 for good. I left the meetings because I did not beleive in the exclusivity and the man made rules I felt were for the birds. Plus the guilt that meetings caused me to have severe panic and anxiety attacks I ended up in the mental hospital for a day or so. My doctor suggested I go to counseling, after 2 yrs of counseling I finally had someone understand and one day a light bulb went off, she said, "It sounds like your old religion had put God in a box"
When she said that I felt relieved and she had hit the nail on the head. Pior to that I had not read a lot online or any books really, I was trying to work it all out alone and with God and it was hard. But here this phychitrist helped me to see the light-they did put God in a box and owned him.
The most glorius thing I experience now is I feel "safe" not like when I was professing I never knew if I was saved or not.
From that day forward I moved on....with lots of ups and downs.
Now about 6 or 7 yrs later, I attend a new church that is non denominational outreach type church, teaches salvation by Grace and good works as a result of accepting Jesus, etc...I feel that its a Bible based church.
However, I have not embraced the church 100% because of my fear of what had happened in the truth church. I mean I attend regularly but I am not particulary close to any of the members and I don't tithe regularly. I am just afraid to get hurt again like I did with the truth church, to be honest.
I keep my distance, dont like people to know my business too much because I guess I have old fears about what I experiences in the truth, workers chastising me about hair, clothes, buns, etc.
I feel this is probably normal, and I will eventually get enough trust and faith to embrace the new church body 100%. Has anyone else had this experience when leaving the truth church?
I only have one girlfriend that is an active member of the truth church, but she actually vents to me about the meetings, so its a workable relationship. I dont judge her and vice versa.
I would like to hear other peoples stories. Have you had trouble trusting other churches after you left? Do you find yourself finding it hard to get close to other Christians for fear of being judged like the truth friends and meetings people judged others?
Thank you for your input.
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Post by _ on Aug 22, 2007 19:04:55 GMT -5
Does your new church put God in a box?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2007 19:13:07 GMT -5
You don't believe in exclusivity? Wow Try reading Ezra - ie the rejection of the wives and children who were not Jews. Try reading about Jesus and John the Baptist condemning mainstream religion. Try reading Paul casting people out of his church over doctrine. Try reading Exodus and the earth swallowing up those who contested Moses. Try reading Genesis and Abraham not wanting his son to marry a Canaanite. Try reading about the Judgment.
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Post by _ on Aug 22, 2007 19:15:25 GMT -5
You don't believe in exclusivity? Wow Try reading Ezra - ie the rejection of the wives and children who were not Jews. Try reading about Jesus and John the Baptist condemning mainstream religion. Try reading Paul casting people out of his church over doctrine. Try reading Exodus and the earth swallowing up those who contested Moses. Try reading Genesis and Abraham not wanting his son to marry a Canaanite. Try reading about the Judgment. Bert... Have you eaten an apple? have you eaten an orange? Do you know the difference between the two? To use biblical scripture to justify exclusiveness found in the 2x2 fellowship is pathetic... wise up!
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 22, 2007 19:33:24 GMT -5
Do you know the difference between the two? To use biblical scripture to justify exclusiveness found in the 2x2 fellowship is pathetic... wise up!
An excellent argument! Irresistable logic - Bert's argument is pathetic. And there you are. The-Handy-Dandy-Scripture-Refuter.
I think Bert's point is that exclusivity is taught and maintained throughout scripture. In the Old Testament only those in Israel would be saved; and in the New Testament, only those who believe the true Gospel - not the many fabrications - will be saved.
I wonder whether those who denounce exclusivity so harshly accept Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam as true manifestations of faith? Will these people be saved? Why or why not?
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Post by _ on Aug 22, 2007 20:12:24 GMT -5
To justify that only those in one's own fellowship have hope of salvation by pointing to the fact only those in Christ will be saved is an argument worthy of a "pathetic" label...
Only those in CHRIST will be saved...
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Post by hey bert on Aug 22, 2007 20:48:47 GMT -5
You don't believe in exclusivity? Wow Try reading Ezra - ie the rejection of the wives and children who were not Jews. Try reading about Jesus and John the Baptist condemning mainstream religion. Try reading Paul casting people out of his church over doctrine. Try reading Exodus and the earth swallowing up those who contested Moses. Try reading Genesis and Abraham not wanting his son to marry a Canaanite. Try reading about the Judgment. bert, do you even know how to post without condemning?
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Post by DianeH on Aug 22, 2007 20:52:51 GMT -5
Well, I thought i would post a new topic, I quit professing around 2000 for good. I left the meetings because I did not believe in the exclusivity and the man made rules I felt were for the birds. Plus the guilt that meetings caused me to have severe panic and anxiety attacks I ended up in the mental hospital for a day or so. My doctor suggested I go to counseling, after 2 yrs of counseling I finally had someone understand and one day a light bulb went off, she said, "It sounds like your old religion had put God in a box" When she said that I felt relieved and she had hit the nail on the head. Prior to that I had not read a lot online or any books really, I was trying to work it all out alone and with God and it was hard. But here this psychiatrist helped me to see the light-they did put God in a box and owned him. The most glorious thing I experience now is I feel "safe" not like when I was professing I never knew if I was saved or not. From that day forward I moved on....with lots of ups and downs. Now about 6 or 7 yrs later, I attend a new church that is non denominational outreach type church, teaches salvation by Grace and good works as a result of accepting Jesus, etc...I feel that its a Bible based church. However, I have not embraced the church 100% because of my fear of what had happened in the truth church. I mean I attend regularly but I am not particularly close to any of the members and I don't tithe regularly. I am just afraid to get hurt again like I did with the truth church, to be honest. I keep my distance, don't like people to know my business too much because I guess I have old fears about what I experiences in the truth, workers chastising me about hair, clothes, buns, etc. I feel this is probably normal, and I will eventually get enough trust and faith to embrace the new church body 100%. Has anyone else had this experience when leaving the truth church? I only have one girlfriend that is an active member of the truth church, but she actually vents to me about the meetings, so its a workable relationship. I don't judge her and vice versa. I would like to hear other peoples stories. Have you had trouble trusting other churches after you left? Do you find yourself finding it hard to get close to other Christians for fear of being judged like the truth friends and meetings people judged others? Thank you for your input. My daughter and I have been attending a Baptist church about 20 minutes from home. There are a lot of churches near us, but this church is just awesome. I have never heard the Bible preached like this preacher can preach. No one moves the whole time he is preaching and my daughter just loves the youth program. In fact she is dragging me to church. The answer to all your questions is YES. I have a very hard time love, trusting and getting close. We have been going for ab out a month now and it is getting easier. I thought these people couldn't be genuine because they are so nice. I am wrong. They are genuine in their love. Their love is real. Their concern and prayers are real. It takes time, but if you find a church you really like, keep going to it. Thanks. Diane
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Post by _ on Aug 22, 2007 21:08:54 GMT -5
Well, I thought i would post a new topic, I quit professing around 2000 for good. I left the meetings because I did not believe in the exclusivity and the man made rules I felt were for the birds. Plus the guilt that meetings caused me to have severe panic and anxiety attacks I ended up in the mental hospital for a day or so. My doctor suggested I go to counseling, after 2 yrs of counseling I finally had someone understand and one day a light bulb went off, she said, "It sounds like your old religion had put God in a box" When she said that I felt relieved and she had hit the nail on the head. Prior to that I had not read a lot online or any books really, I was trying to work it all out alone and with God and it was hard. But here this psychiatrist helped me to see the light-they did put God in a box and owned him. The most glorious thing I experience now is I feel "safe" not like when I was professing I never knew if I was saved or not. From that day forward I moved on....with lots of ups and downs. Now about 6 or 7 yrs later, I attend a new church that is non denominational outreach type church, teaches salvation by Grace and good works as a result of accepting Jesus, etc...I feel that its a Bible based church. However, I have not embraced the church 100% because of my fear of what had happened in the truth church. I mean I attend regularly but I am not particularly close to any of the members and I don't tithe regularly. I am just afraid to get hurt again like I did with the truth church, to be honest. I keep my distance, don't like people to know my business too much because I guess I have old fears about what I experiences in the truth, workers chastising me about hair, clothes, buns, etc. I feel this is probably normal, and I will eventually get enough trust and faith to embrace the new church body 100%. Has anyone else had this experience when leaving the truth church? I only have one girlfriend that is an active member of the truth church, but she actually vents to me about the meetings, so its a workable relationship. I don't judge her and vice versa. I would like to hear other peoples stories. Have you had trouble trusting other churches after you left? Do you find yourself finding it hard to get close to other Christians for fear of being judged like the truth friends and meetings people judged others? Thank you for your input. My daughter and I have been attending a Baptist church about 20 minutes from home. There are a lot of churches near us, but this church is just awesome. I have never heard the Bible preached like this preacher can preach. No one moves the whole time he is preaching and my daughter just loves the youth program. In fact she is dragging me to church. The answer to all your questions is YES. I have a very hard time love, trusting and getting close. We have been going for ab out a month now and it is getting easier. I thought these people couldn't be genuine because they are so nice. I am wrong. They are genuine in their love. Their love is real. Their concern and prayers are real. It takes time, but if you find a church you really like, keep going to it. Thanks. Diane This is very good to hear.... Yes, it is hard and yes you will get worried some times, but it's good to hear that you have found a good fellowship in your area...
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 22, 2007 22:26:07 GMT -5
Hi feelings
Your story brought a lump to my throat. My experience is written in a testimony up to approx 97' on the TLT site. By the time I went to a local church 3yrs after leaving meetings the people could not have been more loving and friendly. I felt so fragile in those days so really soaked up the love. Which helped with some healing. I think whn we later to moved to another Baptist Church because of a hunger to know God more and learn about the Holy Spirit it was the washing of the word in my mind that brought more healing and release and deliverance. Id find myself some days with urges to return to meetings, for the old familair things like convention and special meetings which I had always enjoyed going to. Not so much for what was preached but the fellowship of old friends etc who you wouldnt normally see through the yr. At those times I would call my Pastor who would give me scripture and ask me to meditate on that. He wasa tremendous help and support. I think because I was experiencing love from strangers at both those churches I didnt feel fear so embraced people I clicked with who became my closest friends. I do remember a marriage guidance bible study which was like a wed nite meeting except you all discussed scripture and the understanding of what the teaching was trying to reveal. At those studies I had feelings of fear/intimidation which came from my fear of speaking in meetings and in front of others. It took yrs to overcome that fear of man to the point where I was relaxed enough and felt good enough to voice my opinion. I never felt good enough in a sunday morning meeting to speak eloqauntly like sum did. I felt so inferior. Both these churches had prayer chains and offered fro any prayer needs. I thought this was amasing that people would take the time to do this for me. They also would lay hands on us for prayer. I became a sponge of this new kind of love that was so genuine and kind and self sacrificing. I am happy for you feelings. All the best.
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Post by my experience on Aug 22, 2007 22:38:19 GMT -5
It's now over 10 years since I left. It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. It was also the most rewarding thing I have ever done. I have no regrets. None.
I am learning to live each day - fully and joyfully. The experience of being fully and authentically "me" is worth more than I can say.
I have no love for the 2X2 system, but I dearly love so many that are still in it. I have good relationships with current members. I respect their right to be part of the system, as they have respected my right to leave.
I accept my past, and realize that it has contributed to the person I am today. I like myself and am at peace with everything that has contributed to who I am.
I am seeing more and more clearly that all the not-so-great things about 2x2ism exist in pretty much every belief system and every culture on our planet. Someone said once that it is a good thing to be born into a religion, but it is a terrible thing to die in one. I believe this is true.
I have had the experience of looking into the eyes of people from many different backgrounds and belief systems, and recognizing a deep sense of kinship between us. There are few things that I would say that I know "for sure" - but this is one of them: Anything that excludes is not of God.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 23, 2007 0:00:36 GMT -5
Someone said once that it is a good thing to be born into a religion, but it is a terrible thing to die in one. That is an amazing statement. Gives me something to think about tonight.
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Post by To all of you on Aug 23, 2007 1:40:40 GMT -5
Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and feelings as they are and will be very helpful to many of us, especially those who are thinking of leaving or have just recently left.
God be with you.
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Post by ii on Aug 23, 2007 4:50:27 GMT -5
To justify that only those in one's own fellowship have hope of salvation by pointing to the fact only those in Christ will be saved is an argument worthy of a "pathetic" label... Only those in CHRIST will be saved... it is only pathetic from your point of view
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timber
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Post by timber on Aug 23, 2007 7:44:31 GMT -5
I agree with Bryan - those who are in Christ will be saved. I believe this would include people in all of the Christian denominations. I think it is a good excercise though - to determine if we are indeed in Christ. Is the fruit of salvation apparent in our lives? Is the Holy Spirit active in transforming us into the likeness of the Son of God? Though we are not perfect, there should be some evidence of salvation.
Make our calling and election sure.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2007 8:55:36 GMT -5
I agree with Bryan - those who are in Christ will be saved. I believe this would include people in all of the Christian denominations. I think it is a good excercise though - to determine if we are indeed in Christ. Is the fruit of salvation apparent in our lives? Is the Holy Spirit active in transforming us into the likeness of the Son of God? Though we are not perfect, there should be some evidence of salvation. Make our calling and election sure. One of the most self-indulging, self-righteous and dangerous undertakings for a human being, is to 'before God' attempt to make the decision as to who is in Christ and who isn't. The story of Jesus is full of examples of folks were exempted (and discarded) by 'the religious' but regarded as 'His' by Christ himself. We all have our idea of what 'evidence' that is important in other people -- My advice is 'don't trust it' -- If we have the basic thought that the spirit of Christ could be in anyone of the people arround us (regardless of what opinions we may have) we will treat them better -- and the chances of the mistake of Mathew 25:43 will be significantly less. Edgar Matt 25:43-44 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
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timber
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Post by timber on Aug 23, 2007 9:20:25 GMT -5
I am referring to Galations 5:22 as a guideline as to whether we are "in Christ" or not. There has to be some kind of evidence, Edgar, of our salvation. By no means am I referring to appearances (dress) etc. The fruit in Galations is evidence of a changed heart, of a person who is saved.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2007 9:28:23 GMT -5
I am referring to Galations 5:22 as a guideline as to whether we are "in Christ" or not. There has to be some kind of evidence, Edgar, of our salvation. By no means am I referring to appearances (dress) etc. The fruit in Galations is evidence of a changed heart, of a person who is saved. That is fine as far as a persons own life, and with the purpose of deepening the love of God in our hearts. For us humans, making a judgement of the hearts of our fellow men is beyond our capacity. For one thing, in the exact same heart the spirit of Christ can be developing as a rose, right along side a virtual garbage dump. If we are honest most of us will admit that this is the case in our own lives. Sometimes bystanders (like ourselves) see the garbage dump, while God is focused on the rose!!! It is no less a rose, tho growing beside corruption. Edgar
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timber
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Post by timber on Aug 23, 2007 10:19:45 GMT -5
Edgar:
Thanks for your warning. I am only referring to myself, of course, in determining if "I am in Christ" Its a life long process of being made into the image of Christ.
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Post by msconfig on Aug 23, 2007 10:43:37 GMT -5
Edgar: Thanks for your warning. I am only referring to myself, of course, in determining if "I am in Christ" Its a life long process of being made into the image of Christ. I agree
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 23, 2007 12:10:15 GMT -5
Howdy, I've enjoyed reading this thread, and I think all of us who are exes have went through periods of adjustments. Feelings posted- .....My doctor suggested I go to counseling, after 2 yrs of counseling I finally had someone understand and one day a light bulb went off, she said, "It sounds like your old religion had put God in a box"I can sure agree with this statement. It is not just the f&w's who tend to do this, but any denomination (or individual) who thinks that God only works when He is worshiped on their terms. They tend to forget or disregard what the true teachings of Jesus were all about, and what the promises are that are given to all who believe. ....The most glorius thing I experience now is I feel "safe" not like when I was professing I never knew if I was saved or not.Pretty cool feeling isn't it? When we truly live under the grace of God, (rather than just believing that there is grace...) life is much more rewarding and EASY! However, I have not embraced the church 100% because of my fear of what had happened in the truth church. I mean I attend regularly but I am not particulary close to any of the members and I don't tithe regularly. I am just afraid to get hurt again like I did with the truth church, to be honest.I have had problems with trust when it comes to 'churches' also. When I quit going to meetings/professing I STILL thought that it was the only true way because of how we were taught. I spent the next 22 years believing that all others were going to hell because they weren't professing 2x2's. I actually hope that I never get over this trust issue when it comes to a 'church'. All 'churches' are run by men. However, I truly trust in the Church which is made up of all Christians everywhere. (I'm one of those who know that this includes some of the f&w's also, and that it is not WHERE we worship, but HOW) I keep my distance, dont like people to know my business too much because I guess I have old fears about what I experiences in the truth, workers chastising me about hair, clothes, buns, etc.
I feel this is probably normal, and I will eventually get enough trust and faith to embrace the new church body 100%. Has anyone else had this experience when leaving the truth church?I think that if you fellowship with true Christians you won't have to worry about being 'chastised' for your outward appearance. I would like to hear other peoples stories. Have you had trouble trusting other churches after you left? Do you find yourself finding it hard to get close to other Christians for fear of being judged like the truth friends and meetings people judged others?Getting close to other Christians has actually been very easy for me. I still have a wary eye/heart/ears for any church/denomination, but those who are true Christians (no matter the denomination) are easy for me to fellowship with. I suppose it has a lot to do with my personality though, which lets me 'live and let live', and to 'let go and let God'. Thanks for posting here "Feelings" Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 23, 2007 12:26:39 GMT -5
From GIT: I wonder whether those who denounce exclusivity so harshly accept Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam as true manifestations of faith? Will these people be saved? Why or why not? I would have to say that when someone straps a bomb on their body with the belief that when they blow themselves up they are going to paradise.... Yes they certainly must have faith. It is not faith in the God that we worship, but it certainly is faith non the less. Whether they will be saved or not...... Not my place to judge. As always when it comes to salvation, I remember the guy hanging next to Jesus who was saved by his belief on the last day of his life.. Probably didn't have a whole lot of good 'works' in his life, but was still saved. Luke 23 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Scott
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Post by diet coke on Aug 23, 2007 14:10:12 GMT -5
You don't believe in exclusivity? Wow Try reading Ezra - ie the rejection of the wives and children who were not Jews. Try reading about Jesus and John the Baptist condemning mainstream religion. Try reading Paul casting people out of his church over doctrine. Try reading Exodus and the earth swallowing up those who contested Moses. Try reading Genesis and Abraham not wanting his son to marry a Canaanite. Try reading about the Judgment. Why do people keep criticizing this post? Isn't this spot-on correct? The Hebrew religion was founded on exclusivity, and ours grew out of that. I do hope we've learned SOMETHING from Jesus, though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2007 15:56:46 GMT -5
Edgar: Thanks for your warning. I am only referring to myself, of course, in determining if "I am in Christ" Its a life long process of being made into the image of Christ. Timber, my post wasn't meant as a warning to you any more than myself or any other human being along the way. 2x2ism is extreme in its open moral condemnation of every single person outside their own group. How often have most of us heard self-certain pronouncements of how many 'outsiders' in the room at a gospel meeting? Sunday morning meetings where everyone that is not present is regarded as either 'losing out' or already gone. This self-righteous claim to being capable of 'divine in judgment' of the rest of the world isn't at all a monopoly of 2x2s. It is fairly common amongst the religious in many denominations. A major parameter of many groups is to 'identify the Christians' so that one wouldn't be defiled by the fellowship of a non-Christian. This the kind of thinking that led to the fatal errors of Matthew 25. I like to think that the spirit of Christ could be found in every soul I meet along the way. (Including those in prison -- and on the park bench) I purpose to treat and respect every one as if it was true. (and not treat or respect the 'good-looking' in any different way than these) Edgar Matt 25:43-44 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [44] Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
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timber
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Post by timber on Aug 23, 2007 16:11:15 GMT -5
Edgar, I'm reminded of something that C.S. Lewis wrote - I don't have it exactly, but he said that everyone in the world belongs to Christ more than he or she even knows.
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Post by someguy on Aug 23, 2007 16:12:44 GMT -5
My thoughts mirror those of Edgar. I was just reading Matt 25 this sunday. Much of this chapter is to the self righteous, hypocrites of the day. There is so much warning in this chapter. I too feel I must treat everyone, brother and sister or not with utmost respect and love and never focus on the outside. Jesus made it quite clear what he thought of those who were whited sepulchres on the outside and full of dead mans bones on the inside.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 24, 2007 1:21:34 GMT -5
[quote:]One of the most self-indulging, self-righteous and dangerous undertakings for a human being, is to 'before God' attempt to make the decision as to who is in Christ and who isn't. The story of Jesus is full of examples of folks were exempted (and discarded) by 'the religious' but regarded as 'His' by Christ himself.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.. Really if we treated non christians with respect because they are his creation. Life would run smoother for most christians.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 24, 2007 2:34:56 GMT -5
Pretty cool feeling isn't it? When we truly live under the grace of God, (rather than just believing that there is grace...) life is much more rewarding and EASY! Life is a species of suffering. Grace does not allieviate this. I'm one of those who know that this includes some of the f&w's also, and that it is not WHERE we worship, but HOW.You'd be in a minority Scott if you believe the Friends and Workers are Christians. Getting close to other Christians has actually been very easy for me. I still have a wary eye/heart/ears for any church/denomination, but those who are true Christians (no matter the denomination) are easy for me to fellowship with. I suppose it has a lot to do with my personality though, which lets me 'live and let live', and to 'let go and let God'.I would not be comfortable "letting go and letting God". God is our Creator, our Judge, and our Lawgiver, but not our friend. God cannot bear to look on our sins, remember. We are abhorrent in his sight - sinners in the hands of an angry God. God is to be feared and respected, not befriended.
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