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Post by who knows on Aug 19, 2007 16:39:49 GMT -5
So if your children were professing... you would tell them that they would have to leave. I would want my children to make their own choice. One belief exes have to deal with for along time after they leave is that the "truth is the only right way" ... for some it takes along time before they find out the REAL TRUTH.... they are NOT doomed to hell. There is hope. If I had left and my children wanted to continue, I would not allow myself to be a distraction nor would I ever put them in a position where they felt squeezed. I know that Edgar will continue to put all the blame on everyone else for "spiritual rape" but it sure looks to me as if he put his kids and the workers and the friends in a real tough squeeze by being a disruptive force.
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Post by To Edgar on Aug 19, 2007 16:51:38 GMT -5
Edgar, From the many posts of yours that I have read since I started lurking on the TMB about a year ago, I do not blame the workers for wanting you to stop coming around with your family. I can only imagine the affect you had on people who just wanted to worship in peace. I read an exchange of letters on your website with a worker who tried to be kind to you but eventually asked you to stop writing to him. You have all the tact of a sledgehammer. Many of us ex's have problems with the 2x2 system, but you are one of those ex's that has a huge chip on your shoulder and a lingering anger. You really need to "let it go" and move on. You generally use an inflammatory writing style, but your use of the word "rape" offends me as well. Justifying the word because of where your wife works reminds me of people who justify using racist words because, "they have friends who are black." One thing that I have noticed as an often recurring 'bottom of the barrel' tactic for 2x2 supporters is that when faced with some pretty damning evidence of their groups basic makeup -- they will franticly try to change the subject of the thread and instead of dealing with the issue, direct a maximum volume of venom at the personal integrity of the voice of concern. On boards like this it is most often done from behind the bushes by someone who won't even take identifiable personal responsibility for the ugliness they are anxious to express --- I know that this tactic is legal on a board like this one -- but it hardly represents any kind of deeper moral courage. Talk about a chip on the shoulder and a lingering anger!! Edgar I will refer to 'no names´ previous post expressing the right to "smack down on hate talk" Well said again Edgar. They attack the messenger, but it did not stop Jesus and it will not stop you. I admire you Edgar. As you know the struggle has left you with a fuller suit of armour. Praise the Lord.
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Post by more to edgar on Aug 19, 2007 16:56:54 GMT -5
Well said again Edgar. They attack the messenger, but it did not stop Jesus and it will not stop you. I admire you Edgar. As you know the struggle has left you with a fuller suit of armour. Praise the Lord. Indeed well said Edgar. Our plight in life is never our own fault. Someone else is always to blame. You had nothing to do with any grief brought on you or yourself by "the man." Your family became a victim of "spiritual rape" and you stood by completely helpless. Give me a break.
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Post by Hey You on Aug 19, 2007 17:21:57 GMT -5
Well said again Edgar. They attack the messenger, but it did not stop Jesus and it will not stop you. I admire you Edgar. As you know the struggle has left you with a fuller suit of armour. Praise the Lord. Indeed well said Edgar. Our plight in life is never our own fault. Someone else is always to blame. You had nothing to do with any grief brought on you or yourself by "the man." Your family became a victim of "spiritual rape" and you stood by completely helpless. Give me a break. I hear of Edgars new found liberty, due to his facing the Truth about his beliefs! 1) Taught to him by others about themselves (In pretense) 2) Revealed to him by the Spirit of God (In True Glory) Jesus sure won that battle. Jesus = Jesus+1 2x2 = 2x2-1 Batta Bing Batta Bome Batta Bang
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 19, 2007 17:23:14 GMT -5
All I can see is the hurt that Egars's children must have felt when they were rejected. The other children did not do that on their own. It was the workers and the parents of those children that caused the bullying. Bullying is like child abuse, rape, sexual harassment, and racism... they all have the same lasting hurt. This is a shame. What does the Bible say about hurting the little ones... they will get their judgement in the end. For me ... you can hurt me... I will forgive... but don't you dare hurt my children. Oh, you *know* it! M.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 19, 2007 17:32:01 GMT -5
One thing that I have noticed as an often recurring 'bottom of the barrel' tactic for 2x2 supporters is that when faced with some pretty damning evidence of their groups basic makeup -- they will franticly try to change the subject of the thread and instead of dealing with the issue, direct a maximum volume of venom at the personal integrity of the voice of concern.
One could say the same things from the other side of the fence. Moreover, I think there is a valid concern here: using the term "rape" in a gratituous sense. It makes me think your experience is being a little dramatised and embellished in order to illicit a certain emotional response.
I admit to being unimpressed with the protestations on your part Edgar, particularly given that your website host's a number of recorded telephone conversations between elders and workers.
Both conversations were taped without the knowledge or consent of the Workers involved. At the end of the conversation, it was sprung upon the workers: "By the way, we've taped this conversation". As you should know, it is considered ethical to let a person know in advance that a conversation is going to be recorded - how do you think the Workers would have felt about these conversations? Violated? Betrayed? "Publicly raped"?
I am going to revisit these conversations on this forum at a later stage, after preparing transcripts of their contents.
On boards like this it is most often done from behind the bushes by someone who won't even take identifiable personal responsibility for the ugliness they are anxious to express ---
I have been complaining about anonymous posters for a long time, but those that have written in this thread strike me as being of a different quality. They have made comments in clear English; they have not resorted to childish insults or pubescent sexual analogies; they have behaved as adults with a sensible statement to make.
If you want to see ugliness, get a load of the anonymous posters in some of my threads!
I know that this tactic is legal on a board like this one -- but it hardly represents any kind of deeper moral courage. Talk about a chip on the shoulder and a lingering anger!!
If we're going to touch base on the issue of legalities, let's also explore the legal issues surrounding taping phone conversations without consent, and then using that conversation in a public way. I'm not sure whether that constitutes defamation, but it would make an interesting study.
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Post by just a reminder on Aug 19, 2007 18:11:08 GMT -5
GIT believes that "true Christianity" is 2x2ism and only 2x2ism. That's it. According to GIT, either you are a "true Christian" (who goes to meetings) or you are doomed to a lost eternity.
Do not be decieved.
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Post by 1st grade speller on Aug 19, 2007 20:17:19 GMT -5
"i before e except after c" If you're going to give advice, at least spell it right.
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 19, 2007 20:19:21 GMT -5
All I can see is the hurt that Egars's children must have felt when they were rejected. The other children did not do that on their own. It was the workers and the parents of those children that caused the bullying. Bullying is like child abuse, rape, sexual harassment, and racism... they all have the same lasting hurt. This is a shame. What does the Bible say about hurting the little ones... they will get their judgement in the end. For me ... you can hurt me... I will forgive... but don't you dare hurt my children. Amen to that! I certainly hope that those who find Edgar's description of spiritual rape can stay in denial of his proper usage of this term all their lives! This is why many of those who have had an experience like this have to spend time and energy in counseling to overcome the direction their lives have taken because of the experience!!! Best! Edy
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Post by nitro on Aug 19, 2007 20:43:09 GMT -5
"i before e except after c"
If you're going to give advice, at least spell it right. Obviously you understand what they are trying to communicate. Try and see the positive in peoples comments.Your not at work! We are not your students, we are your peers! We all have our weakness. Yours might be to loose more weight See I'm a bad speller too. ;D
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Post by Maurice on Aug 19, 2007 22:55:41 GMT -5
I certainly hope that those who find Edgar's description of spiritual rape can stay in denial of his proper usage of this term all their lives! This is why many of those who have had an experience like this have to spend time and energy in counseling to overcome the direction their lives have taken because of the experience!!! Best! Edy What about those of us who have left the 2x2 system without needing any counseling. No anger, no accusations of "spiritual rape." It just wasn't for us. Maybe it's the person and not the system. Maybe the finger should be pointing back at you instead of everywhere else.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 19, 2007 23:03:08 GMT -5
Exactly, 'Maurice' ....at least as far as that first sentence goes. I'm sure people's experiences with leaving, being excommunicated, etc have many varying degrees...but, that said, I will never equate such with ANY type of rape. Having just realized I've said that about 1/2 dozen times on here, however, I will attempt to refrain from now on. M.
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Post by Maybe on Aug 19, 2007 23:06:00 GMT -5
Maybe when you've walked a mile in their shoes, you'd feel differently?
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 19, 2007 23:08:48 GMT -5
Probably not. This is where we have to agree to disagree. He could probably walk a mile in MY shoes and it could affect him a lot differently than it has ME. Everyone handles experiences differently. M.
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Post by More Graciously on Aug 19, 2007 23:14:15 GMT -5
So, are you saying you'd handle it much more graciously than they?
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Post by nailed it on Aug 19, 2007 23:30:00 GMT -5
So, are you saying you'd handle it much more graciously than they? I think it's obvious that some handle it better than others. It's true with so many things in life. I see people leave jobs, churches, service groups, athletic teams etc. over differences. Some of them leave it behind and move on. Others remain ticked off forever. It really is about handling graciously.
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Post by Is it Fair on Aug 19, 2007 23:34:19 GMT -5
But is it fair (or even honest) for one to say they would have handled a situation more graciously if it's something they've never experienced? Maurice and Wanttobewithgod both admit their experiences were not as traumatic as the experience Edgar's family went through.
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Post by nailed it on Aug 20, 2007 0:10:17 GMT -5
But is it fair (or even honest) for one to say they would have handled a situation more graciously if it's something they've never experienced? Maurice and Wanttobewithgod both admit their experiences were not as traumatic as the experience Edgar's family went through. Part of being gracious is the way a person deals with others. If you read Edgar's website (or even many of his posts), you'll see that he has a rather antagonistic and inflammatory style. So imagine two people walking away from the 2x2 system. One leaves without taking potshots as they leave. They may say goodbye or they may not. They don't burn bridges or feel that they need to tear anyone down and assign blame when they leave. They don't agree with the system and feel that it's time to go. While they may have some sad feelings of separation, can you see how they would not feel too traumatic about the whole thing? The other person is antagonistic and takes a few shots on the way out the door. He assigns blame to many and stirs up "the natives" as he badmouths several of workers on his way out. Maybe some workers or 2x2's get a little defensive.... or maybe they aren't defensive but they say or do some things to keep other 2x2's from getting caught up in his propwash. So now the antagonistic person REALLY feels that they got "raped" because words were exchanged. Some people may call it a self fulfilling prophecy. We'll never know all the details in these "he said/ she said" scenarios. However, from what I've seen in Edgar's posts, I think it's pretty safe to say that he brought a lot of the "trauma" on himself. Before you say that I am "blaming the victim," let me say that I have many issues with the 2x2 system myself. However, when it was time to go I just left. Without blame, without anger....
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Post by no name on Aug 20, 2007 0:11:59 GMT -5
For me ... you can hurt me... I will forgive... but don't you dare hurt my children. Agreed. But this doesn't absolve him of his erroneous, bitter, condemning, broad-sweeping, and generalized hate. That would make about as much sense as being hateful about all "exes" based on someone like Edgar. If you read Edgar's website (or even many of his posts), you'll see that he has a rather antagonistic and inflammatory style. Indeed he does. And that's putting it very mildly.
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Post by msconfig on Aug 20, 2007 10:09:55 GMT -5
I will remind readers that it was my family that experienced the way the senior workers forcefully dealt with them in the excommunication process as 'spiritual rape'. (I was more prepared so I didn't experience it that way). They felt that after senior workers made it impossible for them to defend themselves in any way, and then found sickly pleasure in violating the families most intimate moral values before our closest friends. They arranged meetings to finger and poke every aspect of our personal dignity. One of the regrets that I have in the process was that I didn't take my wifes plea to flee completely from the scene more seriously. Even afterwards we went to a convention in Italy, and then I continued taking my children to a few meetings even after we were rejected -- until after one meeting my kids came home in tears as the children of the other proffessing family had turned their backs on our children when they had gone out to play in the garden after the meeting. That is the last meeting we went to. Edgar My wife is a social worker in a correctional institution for teen age girls, so as far as what rape and the sickest forms of sexual abuse is concerned --- she knows what she is talking about. What can I say Edgar all I can do is express the way i see things in that I am not going to run after anything anymore!and I think the good point is I can still have and know christ.. Too the critics i say come on bring the debate on if there is something you don't like
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2007 14:38:51 GMT -5
'no name' , I presume that you have convinced yourself that your rhetoric is less hate inspired than the things I write -- But just read your posts and honestly reflect! .. They are aimed directly at my person (as a fellow individual on the same planet) and you write "But this doesn't absolve him of his erroneous, bitter, condemning, broad-sweeping, and generalized hate." If I should use such rhetoric about your person, what would you accuse me of then??? Is this your idea of a less inflamitory way to talk to individuals??
Edgar
Dear 'no name', my rhetoric is not aimed at you, or any other individuals, but it is aimed at an ugly doctrine that I am quite convinced is an anti-christian and effectively designed deception, quite similar to one that Jesus used equally harsh rhetoric on in the gospel story. As I am sure you are well aware, these people (like you) also became quite upset with the true things that they had to listen to ... You can perhaps remember what they decided to do with the person that had the gall to say such things about the religion they thought was the holiest of all!!
Matt 23:13-16 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. [14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. [16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Matt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
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Post by Go In Peace Edgar on Aug 20, 2007 16:38:28 GMT -5
'no name' , I presume that you have convinced yourself that your rhetoric is less hate inspired than the things I write -- But just read your posts and honestly reflect! .. They are aimed directly at my person (as a fellow individual on the same planet) and you write " But this doesn't absolve him of his erroneous, bitter, condemning, broad-sweeping, and generalized hate." If I should use such rhetoric about your person, what would you accuse me of then??? Is this your idea of a less inflamitory way to talk to individuals?? Edgar Dear 'no name', my rhetoric is not aimed at you, or any other individuals, but it is aimed at an ugly doctrine that I am quite convinced is an anti-christian and effectively designed deception, quite similar to one that Jesus used equally harsh rhetoric on in the gospel story. As I am sure you are well aware, these people (like you) also became quite upset with the true things that they had to listen to ... You can perhaps remember what they decided to do with the person that had the gall to say such things about the religion they thought was the holiest of all!! Matt 23:13-16 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. [14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. [15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. [16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, May God pour out his love and mercy upon you Edgar. May his peace reign in your heart. You have come a long way. See you in heaven. If not sooner. Salute.
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Post by no name on Aug 20, 2007 17:09:42 GMT -5
'no name' , I presume that you have convinced yourself that your rhetoric is less hate inspired than the things I write It's not hate-inspired. I don't hate "exes". Do the same for your own. Because that's exactly what you do. I would note that you are being snarky towards and about me, as an individual. But what you actually do is quite different. You condemn and generalize about an entire group of people. This is an evil and dangerous tendency, imo. Note that I do not call you evil - but yes, it's quite apparent that you hold deep hatred and extreme bitterness. Trouble is, you seem so blinded by your anger/hate/bitterness/whatever that you truly don't seem to realize what you are. Hey - guess what? It's a response to what you start spouting out. Try not acting like that and you'll probably get a different reaction from others with regard to the way you talk. Reiteration of my above comments. Reflect inward and take those verses to heart - you seem to have turned into the very thing you despise about those who mistreated your family. Of course, I didn't know you way back when; it's entirely possible you've always been this way.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 20, 2007 23:28:21 GMT -5
I certainly hope that those who find Edgar's description of spiritual rape can stay in denial of his proper usage of this term all their lives!
Sylvestra, a question. Is physical rape equally as bad as spiritual rape? I only ask, because the definition of rape is a physical act, but if physical rape and spiritual rape are not equal concepts, then the same word surely would not apply?
Of course, Edgar was using rape as a metaphor.
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Post by _ on Aug 20, 2007 23:31:10 GMT -5
How can one compare anything spiritual to anything physical?
apples and oranges?
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 20, 2007 23:35:43 GMT -5
How can one compare anything spiritual to anything physical? apples and oranges?
This has been my point-of-view, and the point-of-view presented by many others. I don't think there has been an adequate response yet, even from the person who started this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2007 2:02:12 GMT -5
Sylvestra, unfortunately the 'side tracking trick' of your thread seems to have worked again and instead, much of the focus has zeroed in on the different aspects of my person that some seem to feel a need to express contempt for.
Back to the original subject, as to whether or not it is suitable to use the otherwise quite common literary tools such as metaphors and similies in board discussions. -- By the way 'gloryintruth' our master himself often compared spiritual things with natural things (in parables) to make it easier to understand ... Do you disregard this kind of teaching as 'apples and peaches'?
And the second question regarding if it is OK or not to express genuine feeling on delicate issues. Most understand that within 2x2ism open criticism is quite out of bounds - even 'questioning' must have an extremely careful format if it is to escape rejection. So with this thought in mind some of the frantic horror posts on choice of words can be explained.
But the fact remains, my family regard themselves as the victims of spiritual rape --- The perpetrators (heros in the 2x2 world) regarded the offense as an acceptable form of 'discipline' to teach greater submission!! Furthermore those responsible claimed that our behavior made such unpleasantness inevitable -- and that our lewd living made it justifiable and our 'own fault'. The defense lawyer at a recent rape trial in our country used the same defense arguments!!
Edgar
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Post by ghost on Aug 21, 2007 2:15:47 GMT -5
Edgar,
the French president announced yesterday special clinics for child molesters and pedophiles. Why? Because these people do not understand their condition and cannot control their pulses to molest children. In the same way the workers (at least a big part of them) will never understand that Jesus came to preach love and compassion. Instead their nely preoccupation is order and submission - not to God but to their own doctrines and ideas. In this respect people like that should be avoided, as, I am sure people should avoid relationships with known mafiosi and drug-lords.
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