gloryintruth unlogged
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Post by gloryintruth unlogged on Aug 17, 2007 23:18:54 GMT -5
MY OPEN LETTERS I find it interesting that my two "open letters" to Monica have excited so much hostility. People have admitted to being full of rage at my words; there have been all kinds of accusations about the Friends and Workers functioning as spiritual rapists; and some have simply ridiculued my open letters and proclaimed them the most amusing things ever published. More than a few have said my letters were intended to shame Monica into staying; were guilt-inducing; or were the epitome of unloving. Everyone is entitled to offer Monica advice, it seems, providing that advice does not come from a "2x2" and does not adhere to the so-called "party-line" (which I find offensive terminology). It is, however, fine to point Monica to pastors, preachers, tapes, CDs, books, and a stream of other "help". It is wrong to point Monica to prayer, reading the Bible and God - which basically sums up the corpus of my advice. The final straw has been Bryan's new gimmick - recycling some of my writings that are at least six years old, on this forum. I have tried to avoid Bryan in the recent past, ignoring his posts (which consist of nothing more than lists of questions), and simply choosing to focus on more worthy posts. But Bryan has taken things to a new level now. A few people have pointed out that to find and publish my writings that are six years old is a bit over-the-top, but then there are a few people who are absolutely lovin' it! It's great to really stick the dirk into GIT, that nastly, hardliner, exclusive 2x2. And if you do in a righteous guise then it feels even better. So this "open letter" is for all you ex-2x2s out there who are absolutely ravenous to know my beliefs. Maybe it will quench your curiosity, maybe it will fuel your hatred, but here it is! 1. Changing PerspectivesHave my viewpoints changed over recent times? Yes. And what has been the primary cause of this change? The dialogue and discussion on this forum. If this is how people talk to each other when they have found a "purer Christianity" than what is found in the fellowship, then God help me! I'd rather sign up to Hell's exchange programme than spend an eternity in heaven with the sorts of nasty, carping, critical, unpleasant, passive-aggressive people here. My beliefs used to be exactly as I have put on this forum: that there are many people saved outside of the fellowship, and that there are some pastors and priests out "there" who teach truthfully and rightly. I have discussed this with different Friends; I have taught this perspective to my siblings; and my family has embraced this perspective at some level. But no longer! This forum does not reflect Christianity. And the participants who claim to have found truth do not reflect Christianity either. (I think, for example, of Sylvestra who constitutes one of the biggest bullies on this forum, going about preaching about spiritual bullying!) 2. Accidental SalvationI still believe there are people who are saved outside of the fellowship (by the grace and predestination of Christ), but I place this more on the level of "accidental salvation", in that it is necessary to reject the spirit, some of the teachings, and some of the traditions of denominational religion for correct understanding of what Christianity is all about to emerge. 3. Truest Church on the Earth?Is the fellowship. Do I believe this? You betcha. 4. What about people who have left?In general, lost. (With some exceptions, of course.) It's one thing to be saved outside of the fellowship, it's another thing to be saved inside the fellowship and then leave. The wonderful, merry spirit demonstrated on this forum demonstrates graphically that most of those who have left now belong to the devil. 5. Pastors, priests, ministersMost are false teachers. 6. Judging salvationAlthough I have put down some of MY beliefs, I also need to point out that I reserve scepticism for my own "judgements" because it is not me who judges salvation, but God. 7. Does this answer all questions?Add to this thread and I'll give you clarification if you need it. I believe God has led me to this experience in order to show me something significant. I have learned from the experience, and I think my time on this forum is growing short - my duty now is to use my knowledge to strengthen my brethren in their devotion to Jesus and his teachings.
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Post by juliette on Aug 17, 2007 23:29:36 GMT -5
"I find it interesting that my two "open letters" to Monica have excited so much hostility."
"4. What about people who have left? In general, lost. (With some exceptions, of course.) It's one thing to be saved outside of the fellowship, it's another thing to be saved inside the fellowship and then leave. The wonderful, merry spirit demonstrated on this forum demonstrates graphically that most of those who have left now belong to the devil."
WOW! And you see no connection?! It seems to me that you are very sensitive to any perceived slight against yourself, but do not hesitate in the least to let it rip against everyone else.
I'm often completely dumb-founded at your unwavering belief that you know. Many of your opinions are about things that I would never in a million years think it my place to make... things that only God can judge.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 17, 2007 23:49:41 GMT -5
WOW! And you see no connection?! It seems to me that you are very sensitive to any perceived slight against yourself, but do not hesitate in the least to let it rip against everyone else.
Don't you dare give me that!
I'll have you know that I have been told, from the very start of my time on this forum, that I am going to hell. Only yesterday, Sylvestra (or the person who posts under that name) told me I believed in falsehood, thereby making me a false Christian.
I have been told over and over that I, and my Church are "false", preaching a "false gospel" and a "false truth". When I turn around and honestly say that I think the falsehood lies on the other side of the divide, there are gasps of disbelief.
I'm often completely dumb-founded at your unwavering belief that you know. Many of your opinions are about things that I would never in a million years think it my place to make... things that only God can judge.
Obviously you don't apply the same standard to your compatriots. Explain to me some of my opinions which I have made in lieu of God?
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 18, 2007 0:00:10 GMT -5
I agree with that, GIT. People can and should believe what they want to believe...but that should also apply to those who either belong to the 2x2 religion or defend it. If it's gonna be 'live and let live' for the ex 2x2s it should be the same for the current ones, or the defenders of such. I know many say they have been hurt by this religion, and in many ways have been....but that does not cancel out the fact that if anyone here wants to be tolerated they should also practice tolerance. I'm not going to get in a big drawn out discussion about this; I have a pounding headache already today. I just had to say that. Mich
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 0:10:02 GMT -5
Time to take a DEEEP breath GIT..... God loves you!... so do I. ;D
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Post by bluejay on Aug 18, 2007 0:33:05 GMT -5
One of the wisest things I was told years ago in a discussion with someone in meetings was this: "A right spirit trumps dogmatic understanding".(Or words to that effect). I believe that more and more every day. What is a right spirit? For me, the entire chapter of Eph. 4 sums it up. Eph 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Eph 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Eph 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit–just as you were called to one hope when you were called– Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Eph 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. and all the way down to: Eph 4:31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Eph 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Read the entire chapter ... it describes living our lives under the guidance of a "right" Spirit - the Holy Spirit. If we all would read that chapter before we post here - we might just have some wonderful spiritual fellowship regardless of where we go Sunday mornings.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 18, 2007 0:36:51 GMT -5
c Time to take a DEEEP breath GIT..... God loves you!... so do I. ;D 'tain't GIT this time that needs the deep breath, eh? Without quarreling, he simply laid his beliefs out on the line, in hostile territory. Ding! We have a winner. He sure deserves the right to have his own beliefs, everybody else here does.
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Post by to GIT on Aug 18, 2007 0:41:13 GMT -5
I find it interesting that my two "open letters" to Monica have excited so much hostility. You've dished out your fair share. Pardon our passion as you condemn us all to hell. Well it happens, and people are going to point it out when they can. Deal with it. I know workers, some young, some old, even one overseer, who would have a fit at the thought of being associated with your extremist views. Exactly why your precious Truth is branded as a cult at times. Everyone can give advice. No one should expect it to go unquestioned. And the more fringe the advice, hopefully the more questions it prompts. Tough. Many of us find you offensive. We're dealing with it. Learn to cope. Yes it is. I know 2x2s, new, old, an overseer, even a worker, who consults these things. Says who? Prove it. Give the links and direct quotes. Your advice is for her to pray and listen to God (but only hear and interpret as the workers have previously instructed her to, and all she hears that is contrary to the worker's teaching is of the devil). Your advice is for her to read the Bible (but only interpret it as instructed by the workers). In the future then, can you please post an expiration date with your stated beliefs? Thanks. Do you have an expiration date for this belief? Please go back through this post and list an expiration date for each belief. Thanks. I'm not sure basing any of your beliefs solely on what you read here is a wise idea. You do manage to stir the ire and give rise to emotions here. I think it's your hard-liner attitude, which is rare nowadays, here on the board and among the F&W. If you are going to judge all Christians based on a few bad apples on this board, you've got issues with perspective. This board is not right for you. You need to leave. Please. For your own good. Now. Don't wait. Leave. Goodbye. I do not understand how you can have this view and remain consistent with all else you say. You are entitled to your beliefs. That doesn't mean you're right. It just means you're entitled to your beliefs. Is this belief based on scripture? Please provide. Is this belief based on scripture? Please provide. Again, if you are going to judge all Christians based on a few bad apples on this board, you've got issues with perspective. This board is not right for you. You need to leave. Please. For your own good. Now. Don't wait. Leave. Goodbye. I dare say not two workers in Truth agree on absolutely everything. Which one of all Truth's workers is the TRUE teacher? Yet I'd say probably 90% of your posts here are driven by judgment you've taken from God. This is common in Truth: "It's not our place to judge but they're headed to hell." Done. Though I still maintain that this board may not be a healthy place for you. Have you seen what he had to show you or have you seen what you expected to see all along? This may be for the best. I really do care about you sir. I'd be curious how you intend to go about this. One last thing: I'm curious about what you believe with regard to Truth's founder, William Irvine.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 0:48:42 GMT -5
YEP! Saw that comming. GIT sometimes it is best to take a break... I have... many of us have... I agree this place is not healthy for you.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Aug 18, 2007 0:49:12 GMT -5
Read the entire chapter ... it describes living our lives under the guidance of a "right" Spirit - the Holy Spirit. If we all would read that chapter before we post here - we might just have some wonderful spiritual fellowship regardless of where we go Sunday mornings. ...or saturday nites!!!!
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 18, 2007 2:10:38 GMT -5
I thank all the people who have had supportive things to say. I know that no one agrees with me on absolutely everything, and I have learned this the hard way in my work this year. It may seem laughable considering the unyieldingness of my views at times, but I have learned to tolerate other views.
I am one of those people who mull over comments and words to the point of becoming, at times, sick or sleepless (or a combination of both). And because I am admittedly verbose, and write a lot on this forum et al, it presents a huge target for people.
To be perfectly honest, I can't articulate my beliefs perfectly. Even three hours after writing down my 7 points, I realise I don't agree with them necessarily as a surface level reading would lend itself to understanding. My beliefs and approach are totally eclectic in some ways.
I admire Augustine of Hippo, Athansius, yep, and even Arius, (because all accounts give him as a good and godly man, despite his denial of the Trinity). I think highly of Luther; I agree with some of what John Calvin wrote (even though I don't like Calvin, and I don't like the term "Calvinism"). I have a soft spot for Wyclif.
On the other hand, I'll admit that I view each church according to its doctrine, and I see parts that are true and parts that are false. I reject many Roman Catholic doctrines unequivocally, but I admit I have a leaning toward pomp and spendour in worship; by nature I love ritual. I see much that is worthy in Roman Catholicism, but while admitting a "leaning" or a "temptation" I also acknowledge that it is empty without a proper understanding of God unclouded by "doctrinal rubbish".
If I were not born into the fellowship, and if I were left to chose a church most compatible with my natural personality, I would have made a very happy High Church Anglican. The doctrine and ritual would have appealled to me greatly. But on the other hand there is much that I cannot accept.
Don't get me wrong. The fellowship has its problems. I see these too. No church full of imperfect people will be without these. But I guess I have chosen as the heart of my faith two things: "Jesus Only" and "The Bible Only". Around these things, anything that is compatible and useful - no matter its source - I have integrated into my doctrine and beliefs. I admit to drawing on principles outlined by C.S. Lewis, George Orwell, even Gene Roddenberry! I had assimilated certain elements of contemporary Christianity, and especially ancient Christianity. The concept of the lone Israelite on his knees in the wilderness before God resonates strongly with me.
With such an admixture of belief - both inclusivisitic and exclusivistic; both sourced from the well of the Fellowship and the wells of historical Christianity - so I have my Faith. It is multicoloured, multidimensional, multifaceted, and utterly beyond description. At times one principle apparently cancels another; but the heart of my belief is that I cannot be sure of anything but Jesus as Saviour Only, and the Bible as the Word of God Only - two doctrines I have defended savagely in the past.
It angers me when people try to press me into a mould and perhaps make assumptions. Sometimes (perhaps even consciously at times) I crank up the old dogmatism just to give some of these people what they want. I never write things I don't believe in; I do believe in the Fellowship as a good and true Church; but I also view it as the earthly part of the Kingdom of God - despite its bizarre inhabitants and strange folk.
(I have to admit I have a contrary personality; there are a good portion of people in the fellowship I don't even like. That's why it is good for me. To learn brotherliness toward those whom by nature would hold ZERO attraction for me as individual people.)
I still regularly attend denominational churches. I still try the spirits on a regular basis. But I am always disappointed. I always end up hungry for the gospel meetings and the fellowship meetings. Ultimately my desire for ritual, pomp, a name and a building are self-defeating. The only thing that really feeds me is that which crosses everything I by nature desire.
I'm not sure if this rambling statement makes much sense to anyone. It is the result of discarding the concept of absolute consistency in doctrine and belief. As G.K. Chesterton (a Catholic apologist who helped save me from agnosticism and atheism) once wrote: "We find comfort in paradoxes". Christianity is one collossal paradox. I simply accept the "Christ" and reject the "ianity", and all the other things come and go according to the situation and purpose.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 2:35:57 GMT -5
GIT that is profound.... makes me wonder why we ever disagreed in the first place.... Yes Jesus alone... Love is the ticket. GIt sometimes we can study too much.... throw all that doctrine stuff out the window... just study Jesus' words and His action.... it becomes so very simple.
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Post by _ on Aug 18, 2007 2:41:59 GMT -5
Don't you dare give me that! I'll have you know that I have been told, from the very start of my time on this forum, that I am going to hell. Only yesterday, Sylvestra (or the person who posts under that name) told me I believed in falsehood, thereby making me a false Christian. I have been told over and over that I, and my Church are "false", preaching a "false gospel" and a "false truth". When I turn around and honestly say that I think the falsehood lies on the other side of the divide, there are gasps of disbelief. Tell me GIT, how is that any different then saying those who left the fellowship are lost? hmmmmm?
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Post by _ on Aug 18, 2007 2:48:34 GMT -5
fmofthe2x2s Please stop..... You have made your point. What you call drama just my be Gods softening effect. Time will tell. what are you talking about?
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 2:52:48 GMT -5
I don't know. Tired I guess. But I do feel it is time to let it go. GIT is human... no need to try to destroy him.
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Post by _ on Aug 18, 2007 2:54:45 GMT -5
I don't know. Tired I guess. But I do feel it is time to let it go. GIT is human... no need to try to destroy him. who said anything about destroy?
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 18, 2007 2:56:59 GMT -5
i have beliefs. first i ask you, is Jesus in the Sunday morning meeting? decide your answer before i proceed.......do you have your answer? ok, here we go: i believe Jesus is in the Sunday morning meeting also, my fellow professing people, and that while in the meeting, you are with him, worshipping at His feet. but when we read, we find that the man Legion in Mark 5, and in Luke 8 desired to be with Jesus, but Jesus sent him away...."
was Legion professing? i am thinking yes. Jesus knew he believed, and sent him back to the only home he had known, in the mountains, and tombs, to his own house, where he was more useful. there are a lot of dead people here. this is the tombs, and here i am.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 2:58:50 GMT -5
What is your purpose? He loves the 2x2 group. You can't pry him from it ..so why keep asking questions that are incriminating. Sometimes I wonder if you are a lawyer.
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Post by _ on Aug 18, 2007 3:12:39 GMT -5
To clear up the inconsistencies in his writings... He comes on here and makes it sound like he's non-exclusive, but then turns around and embraces exclusiveness... He comes on here complaining about how others say he's going to hell, and then turns around and says those who leave his fellowship are lost (going to hell)... GiT and I agree on many points of doctrine, and have many things in common... but don't expect me not to question/challenge him on the inconsistencies and his exclusiveness... which was my purpose in creating the other thread... which he has yet to respond to...
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 3:20:51 GMT -5
I know... seems that you two love to fight.... when you get past 50 you will see that time is too short.... best just worry about your own salvation.
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Post by _ on Aug 18, 2007 3:22:43 GMT -5
No... I don't love to fight... sorry you think that...
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 3:24:54 GMT -5
me too
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Post by ii on Aug 18, 2007 4:01:31 GMT -5
hey GIT my Aussie brother you have my complete agreement and backing please don't listen to the dissenters you know where your joy and hope are don't lose them on here.
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Post by an ex on Aug 18, 2007 4:05:33 GMT -5
Put Bryan and GIT in a room and I would choose to be with GIT.
Bryan talks about GIT changing his mind on things when - one minute Bryan is for the 2x2s and the next he is against them. Like someone said, Bryan is trying to destroy GIT and I wonder why -is it some unresolved issues from the 2x2s?
Bryan is a bully. GIT, you do seem to take attacks very personal. It broke you before, are you going to stay until it breaks you again. Bryan and Sylvester are only 2 people and their posts say more about themselves than they do you. You have showed patience, grace and humility to those who have attacked you.
Now, I enjoy your posts a lot of the time, but I see how vulnerable you are to the likes of Bryan's attacks on you as a person. Bryan is young and a bully. Either ignore him, he has impressed no one, we can see on this thread where he uses different names like the "to GIT post he wrote and then other times he uses his name fmofthe2x2s, the changes of names is part of his schizo nature.
If you stay then don't let the attacks affect your wellbeing, if they affect you like they are then maybe you should not stay until it affects you like it did last time.
I believe your church is a false church because it claims to be the truth when it is only another church and I see the sacrifice of the workers upheld in place of the sacrifice of Jesus but you should be allowed to state your views the same as anyone else without being attacked as a person like Bryan attacks you. I find the workers preaching to be empty whereas I find many pastor's sermons full of spiritual food, so my expreince is different from yours but then it would be a boring world if we all thought the same. God made each one of us unique.
Enough said
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 18, 2007 5:16:48 GMT -5
Thanks so much to those people who have understood - exes, and Friends alike. Thanks Nathan for your words of encouragement to keep on going. I really appreciate the fact that people have been supportive of ME - even ME with all my angst, contrariness, stuffy writing style, and temper.
The point I'm ultimately making is that my being a Friend is not an uninformed choice. In the past years I have explored so many denominations: Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Baptist. I have taught in Roman Catholic schools, so I got to see Catholic family life and spirit. I am applying for a transfer to a Baptist College next year to teach Mathematics. I'm not afraid of these denominations, or ignorant of what is "out there". (Just way off the limb - I have even attended Ba'hai Meetings.)
I listen regularly to sermons online from highly trained theologians and pastors and elders. Although I have heard so much that I have enjoyed; so much that I am in full harmony; so much that seems doctrinally perfect, yet for ME Jesus Christ is not in it. God is not in it.
The thing that "works" for me is the Fellowship Church. It's where I really found Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit. It's where I learn to love people to whom my first reaction is instinctive dislike. It's where I learn humility. The Fellowship catches me up in its spirit of mission; in its spirit of the "wandering church" of the wilderness. It makes me feel safer and more secure than I could ever feel in any other way.
What more can I say than this? I feel so much affection for those who have seen the inside of my soul in this thread, and have said something kind in response. Am I sick? Yes. Physically and spiritually. Every Sunday as communion is being passed around, I pray: "Only say the word Lord, and I shall be healed. Only say the word". My faith is in the unmerited love of God - that in the end, in the final analysis, somehow (and don't ask me how) I will be acquitted by Christ despite my brokenness and my oft-chaotic state.
I believe in salvation as a miracle beyond comprehension. How will I be saved? I really have no idea. But Jesus will do it. Somehow. Some day. This is my Faith.
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 18, 2007 8:56:52 GMT -5
i have beliefs. first i ask you, is Jesus in the Sunday morning meeting? decide your answer before i proceed.......do you have your answer? ok, here we go: i believe Jesus is in the Sunday morning meeting also, my fellow professing people, and that while in the meeting, you are with him, worshipping at His feet. but when we read, we find that the man Legion in Mark 5, and in Luke 8 desired to be with Jesus, but Jesus sent him away...." was Legion professing? i am thinking yes. Jesus knew he believed, and sent him back to the only home he had known, in the mountains, and tombs, to his own house, where he was more useful. there are a lot of dead people here. this is the tombs, and here i am. this is real, same thing, the same word twice...like mark 5 and luke 8 are the same word twice...as i tell it like it is, right here at home....and nobody believes, and thats hysterical, and yet, marvel ye do....that much i know, for the bible tells me so... which brings up an innocent question. do you think that when he went to sign his name, that he actually signed it "legion"? of course not.... and can i be like Jesus and please ask that you tell no man these things...ty...have a nice day...
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Aug 18, 2007 9:33:23 GMT -5
Im sad. I wish this entire TMB forum of "open discussion" could be conducted in a more civil and adult manner. I agree with the poster that said that we all have the rights to our beliefs and therefore have the right to defend our beliefs but it should be in intelligent debate and not fighting like cats and dogs. What im sad about is that if GIT ever did have a revelation from God on what "truth" really is then im afraid that he won't ever embrace it because it would be like giving in to the vultures on here (not all but some) who have torn him apart. Lets treat each other with love and respect so we can all enjoy this board.
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Post by gitsunlongmtg on Aug 18, 2007 9:40:55 GMT -5
Thanks so much to those people who have understood - exes, and Friends alike. Thanks Nathan for your words of encouragement to keep on going. I really appreciate the fact that people have been supportive of ME - even ME with all my angst, contrariness, stuffy writing style, and temper. The point I'm ultimately making is that my being a Friend is not an uninformed choice. In the past years I have explored so many denominations: Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Baptist. I have taught in Roman Catholic schools, so I got to see Catholic family life and spirit. I am applying for a transfer to a Baptist College next year to teach Mathematics. I'm not afraid of these denominations, or ignorant of what is "out there". (Just way off the limb - I have even attended Ba'hai Meetings.) I listen regularly to sermons online from highly trained theologians and pastors and elders. Although I have heard so much that I have enjoyed; so much that I am in full harmony; so much that seems doctrinally perfect, yet for ME Jesus Christ is not in it. God is not in it. The thing that "works" for me is the Fellowship Church. It's where I really found Christ and the Father and the Holy Spirit. It's where I learn to love people to whom my first reaction is instinctive dislike. It's where I learn humility. The Fellowship catches me up in its spirit of mission; in its spirit of the "wandering church" of the wilderness. It makes me feel safer and more secure than I could ever feel in any other way. What more can I say than this? I feel so much affection for those who have seen the inside of my soul in this thread, and have said something kind in response. Am I sick? Yes. Physically and spiritually. Every Sunday as communion is being passed around, I pray: " Only say the word Lord, and I shall be healed. Only say the word". My faith is in the unmerited love of God - that in the end, in the final analysis, somehow (and don't ask me how) I will be acquitted by Christ despite my brokenness and my oft-chaotic state. I believe in salvation as a miracle beyond comprehension. How will I be saved? I really have no idea. But Jesus will do it. Somehow. Some day. This is my Faith. git how long do you speak on sunday morning?
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