|
Post by ithascome on Aug 15, 2007 9:59:36 GMT -5
An Ogden Standard-Examiner article of March 6, 1993 quotes Betty Eadie as saying that during her NDE she was told the LDS church was "the truest Church on the earth." GIT it is interesting that you use the exact same words a Betty. Did you have some type of personal revelation from God when you came to this conclusion? Can you list some specific criteria for finding the "true" church? The following link lists 17 pionts... do you agree with these pionts? www.bobhilke.com/church/10.htm1. Christ organized the Church. 2. The true Church must bear the name of Jesus Christ 3. The true Church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets 4. The true Church must have the same organization as Christ’s Church 5. The true Church must have divine authority 6. The true Church must have no paid ministry 7. The true Church must baptize by immersion 8. The true Church must bestow the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands 9. The true Church must practice divine healing 10. The true Church must teach that God and Jesus Christ are separate and district individuals 11. The true Church must teach that God and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone 12. The officers must be called by God 13. The true Church must claim revelation from God 14. The true Church must be a missionary church 15. The true Church must be a restored church 16. The true Church must practice baptism for the dead 17. By their fruits ye shall know them What makes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints any different from the 2x2 group? I hope you will have the time to answer these questions.... I really would like to know. Thanks!
|
|
_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Aug 15, 2007 12:16:18 GMT -5
Here is his complete quote - I believe the fellowship to be the truest Church on the earth. I do not believe in an unbroken succession of ministry from the time of the Lord Jesus to the present, but this is not necessary, in my view for the Church to be true.
It must never be forgotten that the Church, and its few, but scriptural traditions, offers comfort to thousands of simple Christians, whilst concurrently sending ministers to lands where millions have never heard the name of Christ. I find in the Church much comfort for my soul, and much feeding for my spirit. I have found my past spiritual experiences to be so intense and powerful that I have no doubt that the Church teaches correctly.
However, the way is not the Church; the Church is merely the instrument by which God, who predestinated the saved from before the foundation of the world, leads people to the true Way, which is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and Almighty Saviour.
But, in keeping with the new spirit of openness and kindness which Zorro has laboured to promote, I do not expect everyone to hold to my view, of course. This is merely the way I feel about my home, my fold, my Church, my brothers and sisters, and my spiritual teachers and leaders - the workers - and the One Lord the Church promotes.
|
|
|
Post by ranman77007 on Aug 15, 2007 12:29:23 GMT -5
i gotta agree with GIT. nice testimony. i'm wit' ya homie.
|
|
|
Post by diet coke on Aug 15, 2007 14:12:39 GMT -5
seems like a normal enough thing to say. Doesn't everybody feel like they've found the truest church? If not, why are you still where you are?
|
|
|
Post by ithascome on Aug 15, 2007 14:36:16 GMT -5
diet coke
I do not believe any local church is true... being "truest" is just a matter of opinion.
"Church", is a relationship or fellowship in the universal church. This relationship is "vertical"--- between God and all those who are saved "our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
Those who praise their own church and label it as "truest" are stuck on a horizontal plane ... they are limiting God's power.
|
|
|
Post by diet coke on Aug 15, 2007 14:47:18 GMT -5
diet coke I do not believe any local church is true... being "truest" is just a matter of opinion. "Church", is a relationship or fellowship in the universal church. This relationship is "vertical"--- between God and all those who are saved "our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. Those who praise their own church and label it as "truest" are stuck on a horizontal plane ... they are limiting God's power. I like your attitude! But I'm still not sure I believe you. I take it, then, that your beliefs are no more "true" than the LDS church you quoted above, right? Do you then use your 17-point yardstick to measure "trueness"? Or was it just an example? Are Islam believers less true? Just curious, not meaning to contradict. In any case, I still think it's pretty normal for a person to believe they have found the "truest" church, on some level or another. We are probably just arguing about where that level belongs.
|
|
|
Post by ithascome on Aug 15, 2007 15:01:06 GMT -5
no not at all ... remember it is not my list... it was copied from the link that I provided. I provided it as an example of a group that also thinks that their's is "the truest Church on the earth." hmm... good question I am not perfect... so I guess not. Yes. ... Do they believe Jesus died to save them?... No. ;D YES... it is virtually impossible to make some people see that there is a higher understanding which is beyond what they see as their absolute truth. If we want to know the absolute truth / universal truth the only way to do that is through a personal relationship with the One who claimed to be the “Truth". Right?
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Aug 15, 2007 18:00:10 GMT -5
I do not believe any local church is true... being "truest" is just a matter of opinion.
If the definition of "church" with which we are working is now "local congregation" then of course we would all agree that no congregation has no claim to being the "truest local church" on earth. However, I though you were talking of "church" in the sense of a world-wide body of believers who hold certain principles in common.
I am not sure what you believe, but my study has led me to think that denominations, local churches, and even megachurch groups have various degrees of truth and orthodoxy about them. Some draw upon the Bible very heavily, and keep many things in accordance with its teachings, whilst others play loose with the interpretation of scripture. For instance, the Roman Catholic Church, to which I was strongly drawn many years ago, holds to a great collection of teachings I simply cannot (in good conscience) embrace. The teachings about Mary; Purgatory; Indugences; the Church Magesterium etc.
One would hardly say the Roman Catholic Church is a true church.
What do I mean when I talk of a "true church"? It surprises me how little people investigate these things before snapping to conclusions and declaring me an "exclusivist" or on the same level as Mormons. When I talk of a "true church" I speak in regards to how much scriptural truth and how many scriptural principles are upheld by the Church, and how fervently scripture is believed. I speak in regards the extent and weight of biblical teachings to be found within the corpus of that church's doctrine.
Mormons, of course, believe in an additional scripture - the Book of Mormon - and that God was once a man who lived on a planet orbiting the star Kolob. They believe that there are literally millions of gods and goddesses, and that we all will become gods and goddesses in the future, able to rule over our own planets. A famous Mormon saying runs something like this, "As we are now, God was once; as God is now, so we shall become". This is hardly a biblical teaching, is it?
Regardless of how strongly people feel about their church, the ultimate measure of truthfulness is the response of believers to the Bible, the word of God. Sitting in the pews mute, deaf, and dumb and listening to readings from a book which is not divinely inspired, written by a man who was not a real prophet, is hardly reflective of truth.
This relationship is "vertical" --- between God and all those who are saved "our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ".
Our fellowship must also be horizontal. A man who cares nothing for other human beings, and yet claims to love God is a liar, as the Apostle John pointed out repeatedly in his First Epistle. As it is written in the same Epistle, "And we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sins".
Those who praise their own church and label it as "truest" are stuck on a horizontal plane ... they are limiting God's power.
I refuse to bite at this, however, allow me to point out that for a little over a week I have been hounded day-by-day to describe what I think about the fellowship. The interest in my insignificant little beliefs shown by other participants on this forum is, I think, over-the-top. When finally I express my feelings about my church, it is suggested that I am stuck in a man-centric, man-glorifying plane, praising my own church.
As I said above, it might have helped to get some clarification from me before making these kinds of statements.
|
|
_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Aug 15, 2007 18:09:38 GMT -5
One would hardly say the Roman Catholic Church is a true church. Was this not your belief a few short years ago? Could you name a few of these principles that are upheld by the Friends and Worker's church, and how they compare to other nondenominational churches? Or denied... such as when it comes to Jesus being God or the doctrines of Grace... What is your church's doctrine? Can you provide a copy?
|
|
_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Aug 15, 2007 18:21:24 GMT -5
Could you provide a detailed list of criteria on how you reached this conclusion?
Since the "truest church" is only 110 years old, could you please provide the name of the "truest church" that existed before 1897?
The same could be said of the Mormon church... does it not provide comfort to its members? And if so, then what bearing does comfort have on the ideal of being "the truest church on earth"?
Why does the "truest church on earth" only have a body of thousands and not millions?
One would think if it was "the truest church", people would flock to it all over the world. Perhaps they are just unwilling and want their own way...
Many many Christian ministries send far more ministers to such lands... what makes the workers stand out or stand above these other Christian missions?
Would not a mormon say the same thing of his church?
If so, then what bearing does such a statement have on either church being "the truest church on earth"?
Could you name the church/instrument God used before 1897?
|
|
|
Post by ithascome on Aug 15, 2007 18:35:50 GMT -5
sorry... don't take it personally.
You sound like you have been to many churches.... I am glad that for you the 2x2 group satisfies your needs.
I have attended many churches... I have not been able to identify any as "the truest Church on the earth." I go to several...Baptist mostly... But mainly ... I just stick with my belief in Jesus who I believe has saved me. I think of Him as my friend. I believe If you trust upon Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, Jesus will not fail you. I have turned to Jesus Christ alone! Jesus said "Come to Me and I will give you rest.” Jesus is saying that He alone is the object of faith and we must put our trust in Christ alone for salvation. This is what I believe.
I agree.... do you really feel that 2x2s care about their fellow man.... or just their fellowship... Jesus said that if we only love those who love us, then we're no better than the world (Matthew 5:46). Would Jesus violate His own teaching by only loving those who love Him back? What does the Scriptures say..."We love him, because he first loved us." -1st John 4:19
I am sorry that you feel hounded .... but you have held your own.... I most likely would not be in this if you had not belittled what I believe in, as strongly as you have ...you have sparred with me several times... sometimes mercilessly .... but yet you say in your most recent post that you do not know what I believe... 'It might have helped to get some clarification from me." Your blanket statements are sometimes very cutting.
|
|