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Post by _ on Aug 13, 2007 1:05:13 GMT -5
"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." (Romans 9:16)
"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works, if it were, grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:16)
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no-one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8)
God "who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace." (2 Timothy 1:9)
"But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy." (Titus 3:4,5)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2007 1:26:49 GMT -5
Does seem a waste of time: here are these biblical stories about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah; of David and Samuel and the prophets. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, waxed mighty in war, turned to flight armies of aliens. Women received their dead by a resurrection: and others were tortured, not accepting their deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: and others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: they were stoned, they were sawn asunder, they were tempted, they were slain with the sword: they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves, and the holes of the earth.
... I mean, what's the point? Why can't St. Peter just show the dead some proof of Jesus' Coming (maybe an eye-witness DVD doco' on a 103" Sony plasma screen, for example) and tell 'em if they believe it they can enter The Kingdom, else go to the other place?
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Post by _ on Aug 13, 2007 6:13:45 GMT -5
Bert,
Are these verses correct in saying it is not because of anything we've done, it's not because of righteous things we had done, it is no longer by works, it is not by works, and it does not depend on man's effort?
Are these verses the WORD OF GOD? And if so, then how do they fit into your work based theology?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2007 6:36:02 GMT -5
Be careful saying something is the "word of God" without studying its context. Paul mentioned the works required for salvation EIGHTY TIMES. Yet many cherry pick other references to "works" as if nothing else was written. We are doing a new website which will refer to every single work-based requirement. These things were Paul's joy, they should be ours too.
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Aug 13, 2007 7:36:17 GMT -5
Bert, Regarding the importance of context as you mentioned below, perhaps on your website you can speak a little to the differences that are found in the scripture which are crucial to understanding the context. Yesterday after our Sunday am mtg, I went to a Bible conference in a nearby town. The speaker sounded like William Bryant, for those who may have heard him from Canada. I wish he could speak at one of our conventions. He made things so clear, focusing on the difference between law and grace, between prophecy and mystery, between Paul's teachings and the 12 apostles. Ignoring the differences and trying to blend everything in scripture together creates indigestion. Recognizing the differences and understanding the reason these differences exist brings clarity and a proper understanding of the context. Free resource to help understand the differences : avnonhosting.com/grace-books/stam-THINGS%20that%20differ.pdfThe other neat thing about the presentation was the Q&A that the speaker encouraged at the end of his talk and the freedom of the listeners to ask for clarity on his message. An excellent idea, imo, to include in our gospel mtgs or conventions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2007 7:46:05 GMT -5
I avoid any .pdf files as they lock up my old PC. What is the gist of this site?
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Post by Roy on Aug 13, 2007 8:10:09 GMT -5
Bert, Try Foxit (http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php) for your PDF reader instead of Adobe. Foxit is fast and free and doesn't lock up your computer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2007 8:15:13 GMT -5
Thanks Roy. I will download that program after my computer is reformatted. That's an ugly word "format"!! ;D
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Post by Roy on Aug 13, 2007 8:23:49 GMT -5
Bert, I have removed Adobe from my computer because of the slowness. Acrobat Reader is just a disabled Acrobat Creator with the creating portion turned off. All I desired was the reading portion. I want it to load fast and small.
If you don't want to "format" tru FDisk! lol
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 13, 2007 9:49:41 GMT -5
How can I reformat my hard drive on an old computer I want to get rid of? (maybe that's not the right term). I want to wipe out all the data - ok to wipe out programs too.
Roy can you or someone email me with this info? Thanx,
truth@earthlink.net
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Post by las logged out on Aug 13, 2007 10:12:53 GMT -5
Be careful saying something is the "word of God" without studying its context. Paul mentioned the works required for salvation EIGHTY TIMES. Yet many cherry pick other references to "works" as if nothing else was written. We are doing a new website which will refer to every single work-based requirement. These things were Paul's joy, they should be ours too. Quit passing the buck Bert he asked you a question about works & Grace now answer it billy bud
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Post by las logged out on Aug 13, 2007 10:15:58 GMT -5
How can I reformat my hard drive on an old computer I want to get rid of? (maybe that's not the right term). I want to wipe out all the data - ok to wipe out programs too. Roy can you or someone email me with this info? Thanx, truth@earthlink.net You probably got a disc like windows XP when you got your computer just run the disc & it will clean out your hard drive & destroy anything you might have saved to files like photos etc? Sell the computer to someone else is one way of getting it off your hands
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Post by _ on Aug 13, 2007 12:56:58 GMT -5
Be careful saying something is the "word of God" without studying its context. Are you saying the above verses are NOT the Word of God? List them out.... Oh wait, you cannot, since works are not required for salvation...
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Post by OzE on Aug 13, 2007 19:22:39 GMT -5
Bert, it seems after reading so many of your posts and web site that you have works, grace, hope and salvation in a different order to most Christians. Salvation isn't the result of meeting many conditons. It is the work of God by faith alone in Christ alone.
One thing that always stands out to me is the difference you fail to make between the act of rebirth by God and living the Christian life by faith IN God.
The seed of the Gospel is what is sown in the hearts of true believers and the faith that believes it in it's entirety comes from God. It isn't from us as before spiritual awakening we are dead to God and cannot put faith in Him. This amazing recreation is all the work of God. The apostle John says that sons of God—those who believe on His name (Jn. 1:12)—are born "...not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD" (Jn.1:13; see also 1 Cor.1:30; 1 Pet.1:21). And it happens only once just as in natural birth. One cannot say we are being born all our lives.
The Bible states that Christ Jesus has "...abolished death, and hath brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light THROUGH THE GOSPEL" (2 Tim.1:10). God gives birth to His new creatures in Christ by means of His Word, the Gospel, and no other.
What transpires in our lives AFTER hearing and believing the Gospel is the Christian life, and we are able to do the works which he has prepared for us to do. And how much can we do without Christ? NOTHING. God prepares us to receive His word, the Gospel and that work is unseen and unoticed until the moment we are born again and we can "see". Before that we were blind.
I am trying to make very clear the distinction between being born again and living life in Christ . Why I take issue with your writings is that you seem to believe that you have to meet many conditions FOR salvation before salvation is possible. The Bible in it's entirety does not support that premise. Being saved by the mercy of God is what God does for His children. AFTER that we live in accordance with His word, working out (exercising) our salvation.
The word "hope" in the Bible mean expectancy, not wishful thinking. Please try and understand I write only from the perspective of the true Gospel which is the foundation of the Christian life. Without the true Gospel and it's message of life we are dead to God. Any other gospel not authored by God cannot save for it is powerless.
In another post you seemed to be asking what was the point of the Christian life. Moses, Abraham etc. They were ALL saved prior to living their lives for God. Living the Christian life is for one purpose only, glorifying God! If you believe living the Christian life somehow entitles us to eternal life then I believe you have got the cart before the horse. It's a very hard thing to have ones long held beliefs challenged, but when it happened to me it was the most profound of all my lifes experiences. I was truly born again by God's true Gospel, and no other. I saw exactly what Jesus did for me and why he did it. God gave me the faith to believe and from that moment I knew I had been given the most amazing gift of all, right here and now, the gift of eternal life!
Sorry for the long post, I do hope you will read it.
I have no time at all for religion but all the time in the world for the Gospel. The Gospel reveals the righteousness of Christ but is not exclusively about the doctrine of the righteousness of Christ, for it is termed the Gospel of the GRACE of God. It is the Gospel, or Good News, of what the entire Godhead has done and not simply One Member. The Father elected His people unto righteousness, the Holy Spirit regenerates those people to receive that righteousness and Christ has actually produced that righteousness which is imputed to them.
The Gospel is all about God, not us.
This is the Good News which I want to share with you.
Blessings,
Elaine.
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Post by Ken Coolidge on Aug 13, 2007 19:28:31 GMT -5
Bert It seems to me that when Paul was persecuting the church that the Lord asked him if it was hard for him to kick against the pris.I know many have gently expressed their views without malice. Perhaps some of these posts are hard for you to ignore??
I believe that those who have asked about salvation have a confidence as I do that we indeed are saved not because of being worthy or works we have or will do but because of Gods mercy and the blood of the Lamb. I will not judge someone elses place only God can do that.
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Aug 13, 2007 20:30:41 GMT -5
OzE wrote:
Hallelujah! Amen, sister!
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Post by notloggedin on Aug 13, 2007 21:35:53 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2007 7:34:23 GMT -5
quote - ... Salvation isn't the result of meeting many conditons. It is the work of God by faith alone in Christ alone. And when you are asked to do something, do you call that a "work"?
quote - What transpires in our lives AFTER hearing and believing the Gospel is the Christian life, and we are able to do the works which he has prepared for us to do. So if we are found doing these works, what is the problem?
quote - And how much can we do without Christ? What works do you yourself believe in doing for Christ?
quote - ... you seem to believe that you have to meet many conditions FOR salvation before salvation is possible. The Bible in it's entirety does not support that premise. Being saved by the mercy of God is what God does for His children. AFTER that we live in accordance with His word, working out (exercising) our salvation. I have no problem with that. One of the things God helps us to understand is the DISTINCTION between what is of God and what is of the World. But in acknowledging that distinction I am told that comes from Irvine, or from the 19th century, or from a worker's doctrine or a misreading of the scripture.
quote - The word "hope" in the Bible mean expectancy, not wishful thinking. Agreed.
quote - Please try and understand I write only from the perspective of the true Gospel which is the foundation of the Christian life. Without the true Gospel and it's message of life we are dead to God. Any other gospel not authored by God cannot save for it is powerless. I have watched since WWII the shifting, ever retreating standards of the churches. Where do YOU draw a line with God given standards? Which of these churches do YOU believe is true?
quote - In another post you seemed to be asking what was the point of the Christian life. Moses, Abraham etc. They were ALL saved prior to living their lives for God. I would ask what is the point of living the Christian life. Was Solomon saved?
quote - Living the Christian life is for one purpose only, glorifying God! If you believe living the Christian life somehow entitles us to eternal life then I believe you have got the cart before the horse. This is what happens. We are told works come after grace (I agree) but then I offend some by suggesting that if I don't see works then maybe there is no grace either.
quote - It's a very hard thing to have ones long held beliefs challenged, but when it happened to me it was the most profound of all my lifes experiences. I was truly born again by God's true Gospel, and no other. So after this revelation, did you do more works for God, or less?
quote - I saw exactly what Jesus did for me and why he did it. God gave me the faith to believe and from that moment I knew I had been given the most amazing gift of all, right here and now, the gift of eternal life! I have no problem with that.
Sorry for the long post, I do hope you will read it. Thank you. ;D
quote - I have no time at all for religion but all the time in the world for the Gospel. Read Paul (?) on the definition of religion...
The Gospel reveals the righteousness of Christ but is not exclusively about the doctrine of the righteousness of Christ, for it is termed the Gospel of the GRACE of God. It is the Gospel, or Good News, of what the entire Godhead has done and not simply One Member. The Father elected His people unto righteousness, the Holy Spirit regenerates those people to receive that righteousness and Christ has actually produced that righteousness which is imputed to them. But I see less and less regeneration in religious people. The remarks and beliefs I hear from religious leaders simply amazes me. In fact many see "regeneration" as a form of modern apostasy, instead believing in celebrating our human nature.
The Gospel is all about God, not us. That's so true
This is the Good News which I want to share with you. Thanks
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Post by Visiting on Aug 14, 2007 8:14:59 GMT -5
Romans 12 V1... I beeseech you therefore bretheren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.
I do not believe that I am saved by works - Salvation is only possible through Christ who has died for us despite what we are. However, for this hope to be mine, I must die to self that God can work to transform and renew my mind. It is my choice to let that happen, but simply believing in the sacrifice of Christ at a broard level is not sufficient. I must reach out and claim the hope personally. But, by what I do, I can choose to not accept the blood of Christ - so although I am not saved by my works, I can recieve the reward of eternal damnation by my works.
I think it would be good to study the scripture around the verses quoted by fmofthe2x2s - I may be misinterpreting this person but I get the impression they beieve that they are saved and there is nothing they HAVE to do! But that is not how I read those verses in context. For example Rom 9 v 18 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy - God's mercy is conditional on us accepting his Son and being willing for the transformation to the mind of Christ.
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 14, 2007 13:55:54 GMT -5
I must die to self that God can work to transform and renew my mind. God's ability to transform our lives is not the result of our day to day actions/works... Two things... 1. There is nothing to do when it comes to Justification, since faith is from God and we are justified by faith... From carm -
Justify, Justification
To be justified is to be made righteous. It is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus, "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9). When God sees the Christian, He sees him through the sacrifice of Jesus and "sees" him without sin. This declaration of innocence is not without cost for it required the satisfaction of God's Law, "...without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness," (Heb. 9:22). By the sacrifice of Jesus, in the "one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men," (Rom. 5:18, NASB). In justification, the justice of God fell upon Himself--Jesus. We receive mercy--we are not judged according to our sins. And grace is shed upon us--we receive eternal life. This justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24), by faith (Rom. 3:28) because Jesus bore our guilt (Isaiah 53:12). 2. Any actions we do as transformed followers of Christ are the result of being transformed... In other words, it's not faith + works = salvation... but rather faith = transformed and justified = new man = good works... Faith from God and being transformed followers of Christ begets good works... I'm typing this large because I really want to make sure you read this...
Romans 9 v18 is NOT talking about God's mercy being conditional upon us accepting and being willing... It is talking about ELECTION.... You have read this completely out of context, and I would ask you reread it and look into the doctrine of Election...From carm
Elect, Election
The elect are those called by God to salvation. This election occurs before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) and is according to God's will not man's (Rom. 8:29-30; 9:6-23) because God is sovereign (Rom. 9:11-16). The view of election is especially held by Calvinists who also hold to the doctrine of predestination.
Predestine, Predestination
The doctrine that God has foreordained all things which will come to pass yet He is not the author of sin. He does, however, use sinful things for His glory and purpose. For example, the crucifixion was brought about by sinful men who unjustly put Jesus to death (Acts 4:27); yet, in that death, we are reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10).
Predestination maintains that God is the one who decides who will be saved (Rom. 9:16) and that it is not up to the desire of the person (John 1:13). God is the one who ordains the Christian into forgiveness, "...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). Also, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and who He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified," (Rom. 8:29-30). Further verses to examine are Eph. 1:4,11; Rom. 9.
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