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Post by ithascome on Aug 11, 2007 1:48:52 GMT -5
"DO NOT OPPOSE OTHER BELIEVERS IN CHRIST WHO ARE NOT IN YOUR GROUP." "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. "But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. "For he that is not against us is on our part." (Mark 9:38-40 KJV)
Could it be true? Who is us? Could it be the norm?
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 11, 2007 3:23:59 GMT -5
[ithascome Wrote] DO NOT OPPOSE OTHER BELIEVERS IN CHRIST WHO ARE NOT IN YOUR GROUP. Could it be true? Who is us? Could it be the norm?
Ironically, when we in the fellowship elevate the pattern of ministry established by Jesus among his disciples, it is argued that such an institution was temporary and not binding. In other words, it was a cultural phenomenon for a period of time.
The same argument could be made against the use of this text to press the issue of the alleged exclusivity of the friends.
Jesus was speaking to his disciples. The context is the demonstration of miraculous powers. One is forced to ask: is the teaching of Christ really analogous to the issue of denominational churches? The principle reflected here: "anyone not against Jesus is on his part" needs to be understood in the light of another of Jesus' statements: "anyone not for us, is against us".
Put the two verses together and what it boils down to is this: "No fence-sitting allowed. You're either for Jesus, or you're against Jesus, but you cannot be neutral in this matter".
I therefore believe that, exegetically, this text is being used inappropriately to refer to sectarian differences. This is not what is being discussed in this passage. And it is not consistent with a thorough reading of the New Testament to surmise that there is any applicability between this incident and the regrettable proliferation of Protestant denominations in our time.
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Post by Anonymous on Aug 11, 2007 5:24:12 GMT -5
...and the regrettable proliferation of Protestant denominations in our time. At the very best of which your church is one. And if not a denomination, a sect all on its own rejecting the Holy Spirit.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 11, 2007 16:41:35 GMT -5
No it is just the opposite. We are talking about other believers who believe in the same Jesus.
"Forbid him not" IMO means do not hinder him or try to stop him. It says that others outside your group can do great things in Jesus' name.... your group should not belittle their effort.
When the disciples told Jesus that they had forbid this man or group... Jesus corrected them and told them not to do that.
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Post by Need to know on Aug 11, 2007 17:16:56 GMT -5
Gloryintruth, I may not be fully understanding you...but are you using the "who ever is not with us is against us" verse to prop up a belief in the exclusivity of the 2x2 church?
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Post by ithascome on Aug 11, 2007 23:12:41 GMT -5
If that is the case why do you think the 12 apostles forbid him? Are you saying that they did not know who Jesus' followers were? This does not seem plausible.
"he follows not us" What does this mean? Here are some possibilities.
he has no outward connection with us we do not labor in conjunction with each other he is not our fellow-helper in the gospel. he is not of our party he differs from us in our religious opinions he differs from us in judgment or practice
A far stronger sense of "he follows not us," is he who is not only of a different Church, but of such a Church as we account it to be in many respects anti-scriptural and anti-Christian.
I feel these scriptures tell us to show love to those who claim to have the Lord's spirit whether they associate with us or not.
Yes... Forbid him not.
We should not forbid him directly or indirectly.
yes indirectly...
It is when you either wholly deny, or despise and make little account of, the work which God has wrought (in him) by His hands.
It is when you discourage him in his work, by drawing him into disputes concerning it, by raising objections against it, or frightening him with consequences which very possibly will never be. You forbid him when you show any unkindness toward him either in language or behavior; and much more when you speak of him to others either in an unkind or a contemptuous manner; when you endeavor to represent him to any either in an odious or a despicable light. You are forbidding him all the time when you are speaking evil of him, or making no account of his labors.
To any Christian that I have forbid... I ask your forgiveness.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 12, 2007 2:11:44 GMT -5
The argument "who is the greatest among them"... seems to me to be the context. After this Jesus speaks about being like a child and 'who is least among you all is the one who is great".... it was after this... that the man who was not with them is mentioned by John. Jesus said "forbid him not". The fact that the man had the ability to cast out devils in Jesus' name was a sideline.
This argument "who is the greatest among us" continues today. The 2x2s contend that they are the only right way and they are not alone in their beliefs ... other churches say the same... this is another form of saying that they are the greatest.... but in fact as Jesus said the least are those who are great. Who are the least among us? This is an important question. Jesus said , "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least among you, you did not do for me." The least among us are those that have been rejected by the religious man....who is the one that thinks he is right... and he thinks ... no one knows any better than he. These religious men are the ones that put Jesus on the cross.
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 12, 2007 6:09:57 GMT -5
Dear git,
Does this also apply to the verses where Paul mentions that there should not be "divisions among us". Do you believe that to be divisions among the F & W, or divisions among Christianity?
Best! Edy
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Post by ForNathan on Aug 12, 2007 23:22:35 GMT -5
Wrote
Do YOU believe that DH is giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of the devils. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having her conscience seared with a hot iron...?
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Post by Guilty on Aug 12, 2007 23:40:08 GMT -5
Yup thats what I thought you would do. Sidestep it because that is what you really think.
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Post by uh oh on Aug 12, 2007 23:49:37 GMT -5
Yup thats what I thought you would do. Sidestep it because that is what you really think. Your bait stinks. Sorry, no bite. Try a better bait next time.uhoh... you did bite. You sidestepped it again. GUILTY!
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Post by VERY TRUE on Aug 12, 2007 23:54:47 GMT -5
uhoh... you did bite. You sidestepped it again. GUILTY! Anonymous I Just take some tiny bites and your bait stinks. It should. I bought it at Simpleton Nathan's Olde Bait Shoppe (SNOBS).
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Post by But on Aug 12, 2007 23:55:21 GMT -5
Yup thats what I thought you would do. Sidestep it because that is what you really think. Anonymous Your bait stinks. Sorry, no bite. Try a better bait next time. Yet you keep trying to justify your sidestep by continuing to answer a gutless anon. Poor sap you are. What are you gutless that you can't answer a straight foward question and be responsible for your answer. Nathan, Do YOU believe that DH is giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of the devils. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having her conscience seared with a hot iron...?Why is this such a hard answer for you? It is either yes or no. Your failure to answer is a clear indicator that you believe yes. I just do not understand why you play this game. You dis people and then stand mute in an effort to cover your guilt.
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Post by easy on Aug 12, 2007 23:57:50 GMT -5
That's because he is GUILTY!
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Post by Yup on Aug 13, 2007 10:47:19 GMT -5
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Post by to guilty nathan on Aug 13, 2007 17:02:42 GMT -5
Your response is irrelevant and unnecessary. You are guilty without a response.
Respond or don't respond. It matters not. You're still guilty... and still a hypocrite.
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