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Post by hotdog on Aug 7, 2007 8:20:06 GMT -5
Do you think that children who play sports or band in high school are more or less likely to be professing at age 30? Consider the cases you are familiar with...in my field sports would have been a taboo until the 1990s and even today it would be discouraged. Not banned but discouraged with a warning against the possible outcome.
It does seem like parents loosening up on their children isn't keeping them in the kingdom either.
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Post by freespirit on Aug 7, 2007 8:39:58 GMT -5
IMO it is not the participation nor the lack of participation in sports that keeps or doesn't keep one inside God's will. It's the participation in prayer that counts--and not just the once or twice a week place (wherever that is) that we go to to have fellowship with others. We have to know where our Rock is. I hope that we are teaching our children that being near to God is a blessing, not a curse.
peace to all, freespirit
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 7, 2007 9:31:13 GMT -5
Most of the kids that were allowed to participate in sports are still involved in the f&w. My brother and I were not allowed, and my mom ended up regretting that when we got into highschool. She changed her no-sports rule, but by that time, it was too late. We would have had too much catching up to do and would not have been "as good" as the kids who had played since they started school.
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Post by lilmissred on Aug 7, 2007 19:10:26 GMT -5
i was always sad that i couldnt be im gymnastics or play soccer as a little girl....... and i did suck in gym class lol.... to this day i get asked what sports did u play as a kid and i really dont like to say i wasnt allowed............
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 7, 2007 19:23:03 GMT -5
Most of the kids that were allowed to participate in sports are still involved in the f&w. My brother and I were not allowed, and my mom ended up regretting that when we got into highschool. She changed her no-sports rule, but by that time, it was too late. We would have had too much catching up to do and would not have been "as good" as the kids who had played since they started school. thats too bad. what about track and field, swimming? surely those would have only required effort and practice to be good at. but i can see how football or baseball might have been too much. didn't you hear the story about the big tomato and the little tomato. they were walking along, and the little tomato kept falling behind. so the big tomato stepped on the little tomato and squished it, and said, "ketchup!!" ;D ok, not much of a lesson there, i just wanted to tell the joke, but i was serious about the first part. oh and when you have cross country finals coming up, and if you are the leader, and fastest on your team, and you are running nine miles every other day (minimal), and doing stadiums and sprint workouts the other days, its really not as fun as it sounds. in other words, all you were missing was grueling pain. if i had known that my whole life was going to be grueling pain, i would have taken vacation during cross country season.
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Post by IllinoisGal on Aug 7, 2007 19:39:26 GMT -5
I dont think the problem actually lies in playing the sports. I think the problem lies in the attitude of many of the parents who take on a do or die to win stance.
In the process we have many examples of parents acting like idiots during games.
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Post by Calvin on Aug 7, 2007 19:58:16 GMT -5
I don't think that participating in sports or music makes a kid more likely or less likely to be professing. What's important is that parents help their kids keep activities in perspective.
My brother and I were both B&R.
I played basketball through HS and college. At times, basketball was definitely more important to me than it should have been despite my parent's best efforts to not let basketball become "my God."
However, I'm quite certain that I would have gotten involved in a lot of trouble and less healthy activities had I not been allowed to participate in sports. I am not a 2x2 but I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that I played sports.
My brother was involved in music all his life. He is still in a couple of bands. He is professing.
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Post by Was Up on Aug 7, 2007 20:53:56 GMT -5
I dont think the problem actually lies in playing the sports. I think the problem lies in the attitude of many of the parents who take on a do or die to win stance. In the process we have many examples of parents acting like unlearned persons during games. Excellent opportunity to teach Christian values. Plenty of contrast between secular views and spiritual Truth. Teach the children. Don't tell them to ignore others.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 8, 2007 13:51:33 GMT -5
I think a lot of the problem is overcommitting ourselves. I have family that is very involved in all sorts of sports. I feel like my sister-in-law is a taxi... she's constantly running her children here and there. It's exhausting.
Growing up, my neighbor had an incredibly hectic schedule and she was only eight. After school she went off to gymnastics, then to ballet, and then on other days she had softball. She never really had time to just... play.
I have no problem with my children getting involved in sports, but my husband and I want to keep it to one sport per child a year. The focus is family, and we love to sit down as a family, spend time together as a family, and meet up with other family... and if we're constantly involved in sports and whatnot, that wont happen often.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 8, 2007 14:54:18 GMT -5
I am indebted to small-town football; my kid blossomed because of it. As a high-school junior one day, playing street ball after school, a senior football player tried to run through him and basically bounced off to the ground. My son's a big, strong kid. The coach saw, invited him to play varsity, he was on the starting line-up after a few games, won "most improved player", went from a self-conscious, shy kid to singing the national anthem and enjoying comraderie, etc. Any religious qualms I had about sports were erased, at least small-town sports. I'm all for them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2007 15:15:04 GMT -5
I think a lot of the problem is overcommitting ourselves. I have family that is very involved in all sorts of sports. I feel like my sister-in-law is a taxi... she's constantly running her children here and there. It's exhausting. Growing up, my neighbor had an incredibly hectic schedule and she was only eight. After school she went off to gymnastics, then to ballet, and then on other days she had softball. She never really had time to just... play. I have no problem with my children getting involved in sports, but my husband and I want to keep it to one sport per child a year. The focus is family, and we love to sit down as a family, spend time together as a family, and meet up with other family... and if we're constantly involved in sports and whatnot, that wont happen often. I too have seen kids who are so involved that they don't "play" either, they often wear a frown. That being said though, I love running my kids to activities but we have tried to maintain a healthy balance like you and your husband. Kids can easily go too far one way or the other, too busy to be kids, or too bored and allow seeds of negativity and laziness to grow. As for a reasonable level of sports activities, it is excellent for most kids. They learn team playing, get exercise(which kids really need these days), learn discipline, learn how to win and lose graciously, learn the difference between what's "just a game" and real life important stuff. And hey, maybe even score a scholarship! Many of the alternatives for children's activities are not good, especially idleness, hanging out at the mall, too much TV, too much seriousness. Sports are not for every kid, but it's good for them to learn that and then concurrently encourage them to do something they like and can be good at such as music, drama, arts and crafts etc.
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Post by freespirit on Aug 8, 2007 18:14:21 GMT -5
I think a lot of the problem is over committing ourselves. I have family that is very involved in all sorts of sports. I feel like my sister-in-law is a taxi... she's constantly running her children here and there. It's exhausting. Growing up, my neighbor had an incredibly hectic schedule and she was only eight. After school she went off to gymnastics, then to ballet, and then on other days she had softball. She never really had time to just... play. I have no problem with my children getting involved in sports, but my husband and I want to keep it to one sport per child a year. The focus is family, and we love to sit down as a family, spend time together as a family, and meet up with other family... and if we're constantly involved in sports and whatnot, that wont happen often. *nods head* Ya, this is what I kinda was talking about on that other thread about pruning vs whacking. Sometimes we can get involved in just too much stuff and not be able to have some meditation time or family time or just down time. Life can get pretty busy and crowded in record time and sometimes we gotta scale back so we stay in balance. But this whole religion somehow went from pruning to whacking. I'm guessing that maybe it's because a lot of us are 3rd or 4th generation b&rs. I dunno. Maybe it was just too much advice coming from all different directions, like when the workers would talk about pruning, we'd have one worker who spoke against sports, the next against music, the next against movies, the next against going to the lake on Sunday afternoon until rule upon rule upon rule was added and we were left with all this bizarre advice instead of discernment in our choices. We were whacking, not pruning... using the lawn mower on the rose garden so to speak. I'm seeing a lot of improvements in this area for most people. At least around here. Parents have just come to realize that their particular kid needs certain activities, and how much is a very personal thing. What might be perfect balance for some families might leave the next one feeling crazy and out-of-control. Or what would leave one family feeling level and happy would make the next one bored to tears. From what I've seen Mom's have started talking to other mom's without fear that the other mom is going to freak when they announce that their kid has signed up for baseball. So I think that's a big step in the right direction. It's good to have people to talk to about this stuff without worry that they are going to dis you behind your back. When I was growing up, I was forced into piano. I guess it was okay. It was one of those socially acceptable extracurricular activities. Dance would have been better for me. So... I started dancing in my 20s and haven't stopped yet. Again... it's about discernment--there is a time and place for it. I'm not into the club scene at all and I've had times of expansion and times I've had to prune it all back to keep my family in balance but dance has been very, very good for me--the movement, the rhythm, the beat... helps keeps me sane--more levelheaded, able to throw off pains and frustrations and better able to deal with people. (Although, I doubt anyone would really accuse me of being sane! ) Anyhow, I think sports in moderation are really good for some kids (adults too, for that matter!) just random thoughts here. peace to all, freespirit
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Post by Still wondering on Aug 15, 2007 5:02:12 GMT -5
I was B&R and my mother never allowed me to participate in sports. However, because I was the only professing boy living in our town ( there were many others but they all lived out of town on farms) I was able to get away with playing various sports secretly, mainly Australian Rules Football and swimming competitions. The problem was that I was quite good at these sports and often had my name mentioned in the local paper for various achievements. Luckily none of the 2X2's were interested in the sports pages!! My secret double life came to an abrupt end in 1979 when I turned 18. The Football Association decided that all games for my grade would now be played on Sundays instead of Saturdays. I was torn between my football and being "punished" by my mother. My mother won out in the end. She used the fear of Hell rather than the joy of Heaven to keep me in line. I suspect that my father knew what I was up to but was not B&R so probably understood what I was going through. I never got to talk about it with him before he passed away suddenly when I was still in my twenties. I would like to think that he was secretly proud of what I was achieving.
What bothers me today is that I still hold various age records for swimming after 30 years. I can remember winning by miles against guys that went on to represent our state. I was also awarded many times for my achievements on the football field. Who knows what I could have achieved if was encouraged to participate?
And to answer the other part of this discussion...... I saw the light and left the 2X2's when I was 32.
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Post by GuestS on Aug 15, 2007 9:00:59 GMT -5
I saw the light and left the 2X2's when I was 32. Hallelujah!
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Post by freespirit on Aug 15, 2007 9:04:31 GMT -5
I was B&R and my mother never allowed me to participate in sports. However, because I was the only professing boy living in our town ( there were many others but they all lived out of town on farms) I was able to get away with playing various sports secretly, mainly Australian Rules Football and swimming competitions. The problem was that I was quite good at these sports and often had my name mentioned in the local paper for various achievements. Luckily none of the 2X2's were interested in the sports pages!! My secret double life came to an abrupt end in 1979 when I turned 18. The Football Association decided that all games for my grade would now be played on Sundays instead of Saturdays. I was torn between my football and being "punished" by my mother. My mother won out in the end. She used the fear of Hell rather than the joy of Heaven to keep me in line. I suspect that my father knew what I was up to but was not B&R so probably understood what I was going through. I never got to talk about it with him before he passed away suddenly when I was still in my twenties. I would like to think that he was secretly proud of what I was achieving. What bothers me today is that I still hold various age records for swimming after 30 years. I can remember winning by miles against guys that went on to represent our state. I was also awarded many times for my achievements on the football field. Who knows what I could have achieved if was encouraged to participate? And to answer the other part of this discussion...... I saw the light and left the 2X2's when I was 32. Not so long ago, I was at a seminar where we discussed just this sort of thing. There was a man there, age 70 or so, and he was very, very angry--furious, actually--that he had not been encouraged to utilize his God-given talents (I think he wanted to be an artist or something) and now he felt it was too late. One sad thing that stuck with me was that, even at age 70, he was still caught in the past, but instead of his mom doing it, he was psyching himself out. That doesn't exactly have to do with your story, I was just reminded of it. I think these lessons (passed on from our parents) are really hard to un-learn. Left unhealed, they sabotage our success and keep us feeling frustrated and stuck. At some point in our lives, we gotta learn to stand on our own two feet and support ourselves, or (like that guy I met) we remain stuck and frustrated. It's my opinion that God gave us talents because He expects us to use them--and, yes, we will need MUCH guidance from Him for the journey. Discernment/wisdom can keep us sane and stable. I'm not encouraging anyone to live some free-for-all lifestyle here. This is what often happens to young artists (and I'm using art for an example instead of swimming, because it's what I understand, but I think the analogy will make sense): We start out like little kids coloring a painting--just happy and eager to do what God gave us to do and also happy to share our talent with others. This is okay for little kids...but then if we keep going and if we get good at it, it sometimes gets reflected back to us like it's our ego and pride that is driving us. It's not. It's our ego that keeps us back. It's often our pride that wants us to look good, to not be criticized, to fit in. So, the young artist gets shamed around their art--"How dare you make art that makes mommy look bad" or "Don't you have something better to do" or "God doesn't approve"--and then the young artist (or writer, or swimmer or dancer) crawls back into her hole, sometimes afraid even to lift a paintbrush. And the splendid career in art that God had planned for them is nipped in the bud. They go back to being safe instead of stepping out on faith. okay. well. I've started rambling now. So I'll wrap this up. I believe we have an enemy that wants to do everything he can to discourage us from experiencing all the blessings that God has provided. And we have to keep going to God for guidance and strength on how to live our own lives. peace to all, freespirit
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 15, 2007 11:27:10 GMT -5
the year before my mom stopped going to meeting, and divorced my dad, who had stopped going to meeting 3 or 4 years earlier, my brother steve, who was 2 years older than me, in the 8th grade, was professing. now, convention was in september back then in california, and buttonwillow II was during the first week of school, which we missed every year, (that was kinda tough). well, my brother was on the football team at school, but because he missed the first four days of practice due to attending convention (football season also starts in september), he was cut from the team... i felt for him, even if he did beat me up every day..
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jubal
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Posts: 91
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Post by jubal on Aug 16, 2007 6:51:13 GMT -5
I was in all the sports. I went to a small school and it was fun to participate in what ever I wanted to. I was never pressured to be in sports from my parents. The only thing they said was no to playing on Wednesdays and Sundays. Back when I went we didn't play on wednesdays anyway. They didn't say anything about playing in the state baseball tournaments on Sunday though. I played and they were there watching cheering me on.
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Post by guest5 on Aug 16, 2007 7:14:33 GMT -5
Guess my post from yesterday didn't make it so my thoughts here again. To me it seems some people writing on here are in the dark ages, back many years when my parents started going to meetings. Sports, even high school, etc. were taboo. As time went on things changed. We have gatherings now that men wear shorts. Women wear what I guess are called skorts. Workers in attendance and nothing said. Many school age kids in sports and music. I know for a fact cause my kids were and grandkids too. We had people move into our area from NW USA and got right into their golf game. They asked "Is this a NO NO back here?" The answer was yes but no more. I know meeting people that play gold now that previously didn't know a golf club from a corn stalk. So for you people so far out of touch with what goes on today, check things out before you write. MHO
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Post by Stefan on Aug 16, 2007 8:54:56 GMT -5
I played sports in HS back in the 70's. The only rule from my parents was that I couldn't play on Sundays or Wednesday nights.
My parents never missed a single game that I played. Many of the other "friends" would come and watch my games too.
When we got to the playoffs, my coach scheduled a Sunday practice. My parents weren't thrilled about it, but they allowed me to participate in it.
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Post by activedarkager on Aug 16, 2007 8:58:45 GMT -5
There is no consistancy amongst the FW. Some places FW children live a life just like the worldlings. Local municipalities and schools have a ban on Wednesday night and Sunday morning sports or school activities.
In other areas, no sports-in public, many are closet sports watchers (computers) no school dramas, involvement in local drama clubs, or movies no belonging to service organizations-farm clubs, scouting programs, hospital volunteers, no community involvement-you are a pilgrim and stranger passing through some places-no voting no wedding bands no wearing of red no open toed shoes
I remember the one time I saw a professing man in shorts-I was humiliated to think that he'd dress that way in front of a Godly person. He no longer goes to meeting. Men do not wear shorts.
One poster mentioned "It's often our pride that wants us to look good, to not be criticized, to fit in."
It wasn't pride for me. It was the belief that I was in unity with those around me. No children went out for sports, dramas, community activities. No female children wore pants or male attire. No female had cut hair-not even to trim out chewing gum. Band was allowed but marching in a parade or participating outside of school hours was discouraged but tolerated. Never, ever to miss meeting-not even gospel meeting, any gospel meeting.
I was conforming to be in unity. There was nothing in my pride. I was being obedient to the will of the workers and elder.
I have no cases to be familiar with. The children in this area, do not become involved in activities. The parents, likewise, are not involved in any sort of outside of meeting activities.
STILL in the dark ages, no joke.
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where is the dark age
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Post by where is the dark age on Aug 16, 2007 9:10:06 GMT -5
The children in this area, do not become involved in activities. The parents, likewise, are not involved in any sort of outside of meeting activities. STILL in the dark ages, no joke. Where do you live? I have lived in many areas in the United States and have never come across an area that is in the "dark ages" like you refer to.
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Post by querty on Aug 16, 2007 9:23:20 GMT -5
Found in various areas of these US states-pockets, often the country folks not city slickers TN MS AL TX NE ND SD MN IA IL KS WY WI MI FL MT PA
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Post by freespirit on Aug 16, 2007 10:03:31 GMT -5
I think the sports thing has fallen from the wagon (at least in this area) except for encouraging people to not play on Wed night and Sundays. And I agree with that wholeheartedly, whatever church one belongs to! Unfortunately, a lot of people in my generation who lived through this came away with deep scars. The no-shorts rule for men was very alive and well when my husband grew up. And his grandmother probably still thinks he's going to hell because he has facial hair. Ridiculous. As for the women's pants: what you say is true to some extent... there ARE changes. Oh, praise God for that. Jesus called us into freedom, not bondage--to set us free from men's rules and heavy burdens that men would put on us. But, let's see here... in 2006 at a convention work day one of the workers asked a lady if she had a skirt to wear (rather than the pants she had on.) Of course, God never said he'd save us from other people's opinions... but, still. Then... in 2007, one of the speakers at convention--LaNell M. started off her speech with how we were to look like Jesus and ended up with mentioning a worker's photo and how much they all looked alike. So.. she started off saying we should look like Jesus and ended up with saying that we should look like each other. I think her closing statement was something like "We need to be a sheep on the outside too." It was pretty clear she was telling us to believe in the power of the holy bun. Or something. Now to counterbalance that, others have gone to convention workdays and not a word was said. Progress! Hooray! The more women stand up for what they believe (and stop standing for what they do not) the sooner we get out of the dark ages and see a clearer, more heavenly vision. God wants to bless His people, not add horrid burdens on them. AND... there was a wonderful speech given at the same convention about how we needed to let go of traditions and customs and cling to Jesus. What an inspiration to take courage for the battle. And, I just have to know...What is the difference between a skort and a pair of pants?!?!?! So, we're still okay so long as we have a flap? WT*? Why do we keep being so hypocritical? Either it is or it is not okay to have some material between your legs--flap or no flap. We're not totally out of dark ages yet. I wish we were--I wish we could all look up and see the beauty and power of God instead of dredging around looking at who is wearing what. I wish we could get our eyes on Jesus instead of each other--that's what I want for me anyway. Because I know He'll never steer me wrong. IMO until women feel comfortable wearing normal clothing, we're not out of the dark. And... I'm not talking about wearing what Britney wears or whatever the star-of-the-day has on--but (for me) what typical suburban housewives wear to go about their daily chores--blending into the crowd JUST LIKE JESUS DID. I KNOW the women wear this when they aren't in meeting--I see them all the time at the mall, at Target, etc. They don't believe or live by the no-pants rule--they wear appropriate clothing for their activities. So, why oh why, when we get together, do we continue to cling to the power of the bun when we could cling to Jesus? Sometimes we talk about standing out...Here are the things that make people stand out: Gal 22-23: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. If we can have those things, we'll stand out in any crowd, in any workplace, on any message board, in any sport we play, in any home we go into, at any convention, in ANY religion. I'm praying for a more Christ centered vision for us all. peace, freespirit
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Post by preferences on Aug 16, 2007 10:11:09 GMT -5
Found in various areas of these US states-pockets, often the country folks not city slickers TN MS AL TX NE ND SD MN IA IL KS WY WI MI FL MT PA Lots of "country folks" are still "behind the times" in many areas and topics. Many of them prefer it that way. How do you get people to quit clinging to the "old way" when they like the old way? I was at a conference recently and one of the oldtimers received a lifetime achievement award. As he was talking, he elicited quite a laugh when he said, "one of the things I'm most proud of is that I don't have a computer.... and I never will!" On another note, I got a little chuckle when I had to type in the security check letters when I made this post and they started with "B U N"
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Post by freespirit on Aug 16, 2007 10:13:16 GMT -5
[ On another note, I got a little chuckle when I had to type in the security check letters when I made this post and they started with "B U N" LOL!! freespirit
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