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Post by chuck on Aug 27, 2023 16:16:57 GMT -5
Your ideas of hell come from Greek philosophy so of course you think its describing a place somewhere else..........Hebrews think function, Greeks think form so the greeks painted pictures about it!.
Not my ideas, and not a philosophy. Its what's clearly written, and it was written by Hebrews, not Greeks. Hell is a state of being after death, its a spiritual form of existence as well as a place. Hades is described as the other side of Paradise, separated by a 'great gulf' (Luke 16:26).. That's a description, not a painted picture. If your assumptions are that nothing means what it says, then you'll interpret what's written incorrectly. Hell is not an antonym for something else or an imaginary place.
The problem with implementing function over form requires that you replace reality with myth and are left with a confusing mess. Take a simple verse like, "A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight" (John 9:11). Does that verse literally describe an actual place and event to you, or did the Greeks misconstrue some unknown Hebrew function? What alternative meaning would you assign to what that verse is actually relaying? It was a miracle after-all, so I'm presuming you can't accept it at face value.
Know your history Dan, the greeks invented the idea of hell that you are describing, thats the lense you read the words through regardless of the intent of the authors. The greeks painted pictures of their ideas of the Hebrew stories, the greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's and does not reconcile with their idea about the soul at all........ I am supporting the reality within the myth, you are supporting a myth absent reality....I don't know how you can say I am replacing reality with myth when the things I have said require no myth to be true........on the other hand if you can show me a dead man come back tonlife and then float of into the clouds or a picture of this hell you speak that you assert is not an imaginary place....and don't quote the bible as evidence, that's circular... I would ask you what is the significance of Siloam to these people in that day?. What's the story behind the story?. And you are starting with your conclusion that it was a physical miracle. What evidence do you have to support that absent this story?. If it can't happen today it didn't happen back then......
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Post by chuck on Aug 27, 2023 17:48:08 GMT -5
Luke 16 contains two stories: the parable of the dishonest manager and the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The first story is a parable, but the second story is not. The second story is different from a parable because it uses a proper name (Lazarus) and describes the afterlife in detail. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal truth that has a serious message for the readers.. middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/parable.htmHere's a story... Are Paddy and the man real people? It's clearly written.....
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Post by fixit on Aug 27, 2023 18:05:59 GMT -5
Here's a story... Are Paddy and the man real people? It's clearly written..... Yes, by the year 4,000 religious people will have turned it into some weird ruling.
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Post by chuck on Aug 27, 2023 18:06:56 GMT -5
Your ideas of hell come from Greek philosophy so of course you think its describing a place somewhere else..........Hebrews think function, Greeks think form so the greeks painted pictures about it!. The Greeks did not interpret the NT or the OT, they translated it...chuckite...major difference... Wally the greeks already had their ideas about such things during and before NT era. It would be completely ignorant to not acknowledge their interpretations of the scripture were based in their own philosophy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 18:08:55 GMT -5
Luke 16 contains two stories: the parable of the dishonest manager and the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The first story is a parable, but the second story is not. The second story is different from a parable because it uses a proper name (Lazarus) and describes the afterlife in detail. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a literal truth that has a serious message for the readers.. middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/parable.htmHere's a story... Are Paddy and the man real people? Thats as about as stupid of an attempt at a counter argument that I have ever seen...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 18:10:26 GMT -5
Your ideas of hell come from Greek philosophy so of course you think its describing a place somewhere else..........Hebrews think function, Greeks think form so the greeks painted pictures about it!.
Not my ideas, and not a philosophy. Its what's clearly written, and it was written by Hebrews, not Greeks. Hell is a state of being after death, its a spiritual form of existence as well as a place. Hades is described as the other side of Paradise, separated by a 'great gulf' (Luke 16:26).. That's a description, not a painted picture. If your assumptions are that nothing means what it says, then you'll interpret what's written incorrectly. Hell is not an antonym for something else or an imaginary place.
The problem with implementing function over form requires that you replace reality with myth and are left with a confusing mess. Take a simple verse like, "A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight" (John 9:11). Does that verse literally describe an actual place and event to you, or did the Greeks misconstrue some unknown Hebrew function? What alternative meaning would you assign to what that verse is actually relaying? It was a miracle after-all, so I'm presuming you can't accept it at face value.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 18:11:49 GMT -5
I can just as easily end up there as anyone, your ASSumptions are typical for an atheist... Matthew 23:15 [15]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. "There" is where you stand wally......not where you go some day that some people painted pictures about to scare you.... Big surprise headed your way, and you were so close...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 18:16:04 GMT -5
The Greeks did not interpret the NT or the OT, they translated it...chuckite...major difference... Wally the greeks already had their ideas about such things during and before NT era. It would be completely ignorant to not acknowledge their interpretations of the scripture were based in their own philosophy. The Hebrews picked Greek to convey their messages literal or metaphorical they being the originators were satisfied with that, if you are not, no one cares... Translation is not interpretation. Good luck you'll need it...
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Post by chuck on Aug 27, 2023 18:55:29 GMT -5
You do raise some interesting points, and food for thought Chuck. Certainly, the Pentateuch as it is known by the Christians, to my mind is the collection of explanations in the five books of Moses for the world to the Jewish people. I have never taken the story of Adam and Eve, or Noah as literal, but metaphorical. However, I do not say that they could not be literal either, as I consider the absence of evidence to not be the evidence of absence, but make more sense as figurative. That's a whole lot more rational and gracious than the fundemental approach, they already have their conclusions that certain people are gonna burn based purely on if people agree with their religious beliefs. I find that an appalling way to look at other people.
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Post by chuck on Aug 27, 2023 19:03:06 GMT -5
Wally the greeks already had their ideas about such things during and before NT era. It would be completely ignorant to not acknowledge their interpretations of the scripture were based in their own philosophy. The Hebrews picked Greek to convey their messages literal or metaphorical they being the originators were satisfied with that, if you are not, no one cares... Translation is not interpretation. Good luck you'll need it... Wally, the language chosen to convey is seperate to the intent of words in any given culture. You are not comprehending this.
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Post by chuck on Aug 27, 2023 19:06:14 GMT -5
Matthew 23:15 [15]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. "There" is where you stand wally......not where you go some day that some people painted pictures about to scare you.... Big surprise headed your way, and you were so close... You are so bold with thin air......more religious threats......
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Post by Dan on Aug 27, 2023 21:36:52 GMT -5
Not my ideas, and not a philosophy. Its what's clearly written, and it was written by Hebrews, not Greeks. Hell is a state of being after death, its a spiritual form of existence as well as a place. Hades is described as the other side of Paradise, separated by a 'great gulf' (Luke 16:26).. That's a description, not a painted picture. If your assumptions are that nothing means what it says, then you'll interpret what's written incorrectly. Hell is not an antonym for something else or an imaginary place.
The problem with implementing function over form requires that you replace reality with myth and are left with a confusing mess. Take a simple verse like, "A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight" (John 9:11). Does that verse literally describe an actual place and event to you, or did the Greeks misconstrue some unknown Hebrew function? What alternative meaning would you assign to what that verse is actually relaying? It was a miracle after-all, so I'm presuming you can't accept it at face value.
Know your history Dan, the greeks invented the idea of hell that you are describing, thats the lense you read the words through regardless of the intent of the authors. The greeks painted pictures of their ideas of the Hebrew stories, the greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's and does not reconcile with their idea about the soul at all........ I am supporting the reality within the myth, you are supporting a myth absent reality....I don't know how you can say I am replacing reality with myth when the things I have said require no myth to be true........on the other hand if you can show me a dead man come back tonlife and then float of into the clouds or a picture of this hell you speak that you assert is not an imaginary place....and don't quote the bible as evidence, that's circular... I would ask you what is the significance of Siloam to these people in that day?. What's the story behind the story?. And you are starting with your conclusion that it was a physical miracle. What evidence do you have to support that absent this story?. If it can't happen today it didn't happen back then......
The Greeks didn't invent hell, they and the RCC may have expounded on what it is, but they did not invent it as you say; (the Greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's). "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Hell is the waiting room for the Lake of Fire.
There is no reality in a myth. If miracles occurred, there is no myth. I said that your denial of miracles is changing reality into a myth. In other words, your assumption that no miracles could have happened leads you to extract an alternative meaning to those miracles which were clearly reported. The risen Christ was witnessed, his tomb was empty, he's not in his grave. That's the faith. Your request for proof is the mindset of a nonbeliever.
The significance of the blind man receiving his sight is explained in detail, read John 9. There's no story behind the story per se, the Pharisees didn't believe it either, so your in good company! When one accepts who Jesus was, the Word who spoke all things into existence, then its not a stretch to believe he could restore the sight of a blind man, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 21:41:33 GMT -5
The Hebrews picked Greek to convey their messages literal or metaphorical they being the originators were satisfied with that, if you are not, no one cares... Translation is not interpretation. Good luck you'll need it... Wally, the language chosen to convey is seperate to the intent of words in any given culture. You are not comprehending this. You just shot yourself in the foot Einstein, you've made so if it's not the original language it can never be understood in another, you are as clueless as they come. Like I've said before the Hebrew mindset cult will rot your brain...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 21:42:11 GMT -5
Big surprise headed your way, and you were so close... You are so bold with thin air......more religious threats...... Talk to God (Atheist) it's his words not mine...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 21:43:33 GMT -5
Know your history Dan, the greeks invented the idea of hell that you are describing, thats the lense you read the words through regardless of the intent of the authors. The greeks painted pictures of their ideas of the Hebrew stories, the greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's and does not reconcile with their idea about the soul at all........ I am supporting the reality within the myth, you are supporting a myth absent reality....I don't know how you can say I am replacing reality with myth when the things I have said require no myth to be true........on the other hand if you can show me a dead man come back tonlife and then float of into the clouds or a picture of this hell you speak that you assert is not an imaginary place....and don't quote the bible as evidence, that's circular... I would ask you what is the significance of Siloam to these people in that day?. What's the story behind the story?. And you are starting with your conclusion that it was a physical miracle. What evidence do you have to support that absent this story?. If it can't happen today it didn't happen back then......
The Greeks didn't invent hell, they and the RCC may have expounded on what it is, but they did not invent it as you say; (the Greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's). "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Hell is the waiting room for the Lake of Fire.
There is no reality in a myth. If miracles occurred, there is no myth. I said that your denial of miracles is changing reality into a myth. In other words, your assumption that no miracles could have happened leads you to extract an alternative meaning to those miracles which were clearly reported. The risen Christ was witnessed, his tomb was empty, he's not in his grave. That's the faith. Your request for proof is the mindset of a nonbeliever.
The significance of the blind man receiving his sight is explained in detail, read John 9. There's no story behind the story per se, the Pharisees didn't believe it either, so your in good company! When one accepts who Jesus was, the Word who spoke all things into existence, then its not a stretch to believe he could restore the sight of a blind man, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
Spot on....wait for it...
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Post by chuck on Aug 28, 2023 0:32:33 GMT -5
Wally, the language chosen to convey is seperate to the intent of words in any given culture. You are not comprehending this. You just shot yourself in the foot Einstein, you've made so if it's not the original language it can never be understood in another, you are as clueless as they come. Like I've said before the Hebrew mindset cult will rot your brain... Wally, If you know the concepts underlying words in a given culture, once translated you can still apply the concepts, what you are not understanding is the concepts you are applying to words in scripture are not original Hebrew concepts but rather greek ones regardless of the language. It helps to get your head around the how the concepts were conveyed in the Hebrew, culture, the hieroglyphics were like small comic strips, each symbol had its own concept. Unless you can grasp these you missapply what words mean. What you and Dan are doing is applying western concepts to the words with no thought to the original. Couple this together with the art of storytelling to pass on wisdom and the Hebrews way of thinking about the function of language not the form you will begin to see the widsom within the words of scripture regardless of the language it is written in.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 1:59:15 GMT -5
You just shot yourself in the foot Einstein, you've made so if it's not the original language it can never be understood in another, you are as clueless as they come. Like I've said before the Hebrew mindset cult will rot your brain... Wally, If you know the concepts underlying words in a given culture, once translated you can still apply the concepts, what you are not understanding is the concepts you are applying to words in scripture are not original Hebrew concepts but rather greek ones regardless of the language. It helps to get your head around the how the concepts were conveyed in the Hebrew, culture, the hieroglyphics were like small comic strips, each symbol had its own concept. Unless you can grasp these you missapply what words mean. What you and Dan are doing is applying western concepts to the words with no thought to the original. Couple this together with the art of storytelling to pass on wisdom and the Hebrews way of thinking about the function of language not the form you will begin to see the widsom within the words of scripture regardless of the language it is written in. You are up the crick without a paddle... The Hebrews would have worked with the translators for the Greek. Hebraic mindset scholars would know this... And you understand Hebrew hieroglyphics? Do tell... Good luck you'll need it...
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Post by chuck on Aug 28, 2023 17:25:36 GMT -5
Know your history Dan, the greeks invented the idea of hell that you are describing, thats the lense you read the words through regardless of the intent of the authors. The greeks painted pictures of their ideas of the Hebrew stories, the greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's and does not reconcile with their idea about the soul at all........ I am supporting the reality within the myth, you are supporting a myth absent reality....I don't know how you can say I am replacing reality with myth when the things I have said require no myth to be true........on the other hand if you can show me a dead man come back tonlife and then float of into the clouds or a picture of this hell you speak that you assert is not an imaginary place....and don't quote the bible as evidence, that's circular... I would ask you what is the significance of Siloam to these people in that day?. What's the story behind the story?. And you are starting with your conclusion that it was a physical miracle. What evidence do you have to support that absent this story?. If it can't happen today it didn't happen back then......
The Greeks didn't invent hell, they and the RCC may have expounded on what it is, but they did not invent it as you say; (the Greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's). "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Hell is the waiting room for the Lake of Fire.
There is no reality in a myth. If miracles occurred, there is no myth. I said that your denial of miracles is changing reality into a myth. In other words, your assumption that no miracles could have happened leads you to extract an alternative meaning to those miracles which were clearly reported. The risen Christ was witnessed, his tomb was empty, he's not in his grave. That's the faith. Your request for proof is the mindset of a nonbeliever.
The significance of the blind man receiving his sight is explained in detail, read John 9. There's no story behind the story per se, the Pharisees didn't believe it either, so your in good company! When one accepts who Jesus was, the Word who spoke all things into existence, then its not a stretch to believe he could restore the sight of a blind man, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
When did I say the greeks invented hell??. To the Hebrew people when you died you were a dead soul. Your soul didn’t go anywhere. To the greeks your soul left your body and went up or down basically. Two totally different philosophies. So which philosophy are you applying to the scripture you have quoted, the Greeks version or the Hebrews?. And when you have decided which philosophy you are going to apply to the soul how does that work in conjunction with spirit as one verse you quoted said spirit?. I find it really confusing that on one hand you say there is no reality in myth when you clearly believe some mythological stories as literally true. I don't see you arguing that there are windows in the firmament? why not because its written as clearly as other things you believe are literally true but yet can provide nothing outside ofnthe words on a page to support the claim?, could it be perhaps that you can see with your own two eyes there are no windows in the firmament so never give those types of verses a second thought but yet you are quite happy to defend things that physically do not happen now and most likely back then all because you cannot verify with your own eyes but rather give you the hope of never ending life...... There is most definitely reality in myth, all you have to do is forget abiut trying to make them physicalpy literal and see how they represent people lived experiences, they are truer than true as the experiences described within these mythological stories are true across time. Noah for instance, building his ark out of a resilient material that was water tight so even the worst of flood couldn't drown him, this is still true tonthis very day, I know many people today who have shown the ability to rise above things that most definitely would have drowned people who hadn't prepared an ark....this is the reality of this mythological story. There is always a story behind the story dan, Hebrew's didn't waste words like we do, If they mention Siloam it wasn't just to tell people a physical location. Which is why I ask what was Siloam to them?. Stop reading the words like a westerner and read them through the eyes of Hebrew, it is a reflection of their culture and thought process after all......
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 17:34:29 GMT -5
The Greeks didn't invent hell, they and the RCC may have expounded on what it is, but they did not invent it as you say; (the Greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's). "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Hell is the waiting room for the Lake of Fire.
There is no reality in a myth. If miracles occurred, there is no myth. I said that your denial of miracles is changing reality into a myth. In other words, your assumption that no miracles could have happened leads you to extract an alternative meaning to those miracles which were clearly reported. The risen Christ was witnessed, his tomb was empty, he's not in his grave. That's the faith. Your request for proof is the mindset of a nonbeliever.
The significance of the blind man receiving his sight is explained in detail, read John 9. There's no story behind the story per se, the Pharisees didn't believe it either, so your in good company! When one accepts who Jesus was, the Word who spoke all things into existence, then its not a stretch to believe he could restore the sight of a blind man, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
When did I say the greeks invented hell??. To the Hebrew people when you died you were a dead soul. Your soul didn’t go anywhere. To the greeks your soul left your body and went up or down basically. Two totally different philosophies. So which philosophy are you applying to the scripture you have quoted, the Greeks version or the Hebrews?. And when you have decided which philosophy you are going to apply to the soul how does that work in conjunction with spirit as one verse you quoted said spirit?. I find it really confusing that on one hand you say there is no reality in myth when you clearly believe some mythological stories as literally true. I don't see you arguing that there are windows in the firmament? why not because its written as clearly as other things you believe are literally true but yet can provide nothing outside ofnthe words on a page to support the claim?, could it be perhaps that you can see with your own two eyes there are no windows in the firmament so never give those types of verses a second thought but yet you are quite happy to defend things that physically do not happen now and most likely back then all because you cannot verify with your own eyes but rather give you the hope of never ending life...... There is most definitely reality in myth, all you have to do is forget abiut trying to make them physicalpy literal and see how they represent people lived experiences, they are truer than true as the experiences described within these mythological stories are true across time. Noah for instance, building his ark out of a resilient material that was water tight so even the worst of flood couldn't drown him, this is still true tonthis very day, I know many people today who have shown the ability to rise above things that most definitely would have drowned people who hadn't prepared an ark....this is the reality of this mythological story. There is always a story behind the story dan, Hebrew's didn't waste words like we do, If they mention Siloam it wasn't just to tell people a physical location. Which is why I ask what was Siloam to them?. Stop reading the words like a westerner and read them through the eyes of Hebrew, it is a reflection of their culture and thought process after all...... You are forgetting the pharisee's piker. They believed in an afterlife. They believe in a soul and after life. Guess what they were Hebrews...
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Post by chuck on Aug 28, 2023 17:51:18 GMT -5
Wally, If you know the concepts underlying words in a given culture, once translated you can still apply the concepts, what you are not understanding is the concepts you are applying to words in scripture are not original Hebrew concepts but rather greek ones regardless of the language. It helps to get your head around the how the concepts were conveyed in the Hebrew, culture, the hieroglyphics were like small comic strips, each symbol had its own concept. Unless you can grasp these you missapply what words mean. What you and Dan are doing is applying western concepts to the words with no thought to the original. Couple this together with the art of storytelling to pass on wisdom and the Hebrews way of thinking about the function of language not the form you will begin to see the widsom within the words of scripture regardless of the language it is written in. You are up the crick without a paddle... The Hebrews would have worked with the translators for the Greek. Hebraic mindset scholars would know this... And you understand Hebrew hieroglyphics? Do tell... Good luck you'll need it... Yea Moses probably helped the translators, he was known for doing things after he died...... The internet is a wonderful way to source new knowledge, especially when you search beyond apologetic websites....... You seem to have a gambling addiction, you are always going on about luck.....but it stands to reason because you did tell me once the odds of going to heaven or hell.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 18:18:18 GMT -5
You are up the crick without a paddle... The Hebrews would have worked with the translators for the Greek. Hebraic mindset scholars would know this... And you understand Hebrew hieroglyphics? Do tell... Good luck you'll need it... Yea Moses probably helped the translators, he was known for doing things after he died...... The internet is a wonderful way to source new knowledge, especially when you search beyond apologetic websites....... You seem to have a gambling addiction, you are always going on about luck.....but it stands to reason because you did tell me once the odds of going to heaven or hell. Quite funny, but humor won't get you to heaven, Christ will though... It's also a good way to reap corruption...you seem to have found that... I see you don't understand colloquialisms or sarcasm? I doubt heaven and salvation are binary, although some numbers are implied in scripture...
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Post by Dan on Aug 28, 2023 21:58:34 GMT -5
When did I say the greeks invented hell??. To the Hebrew people when you died you were a dead soul. Your soul didn’t go anywhere. To the greeks your soul left your body and went up or down basically. Two totally different philosophies. So which philosophy are you applying to the scripture you have quoted, the Greeks version or the Hebrews?. And when you have decided which philosophy you are going to apply to the soul how does that work in conjunction with spirit as one verse you quoted said spirit?. I find it really confusing that on one hand you say there is no reality in myth when you clearly believe some mythological stories as literally true. I don't see you arguing that there are windows in the firmament? why not because its written as clearly as other things you believe are literally true but yet can provide nothing outside ofnthe words on a page to support the claim?, could it be perhaps that you can see with your own two eyes there are no windows in the firmament so never give those types of verses a second thought but yet you are quite happy to defend things that physically do not happen now and most likely back then all because you cannot verify with your own eyes but rather give you the hope of never ending life...... There is most definitely reality in myth, all you have to do is forget abiut trying to make them physicalpy literal and see how they represent people lived experiences, they are truer than true as the experiences described within these mythological stories are true across time. Noah for instance, building his ark out of a resilient material that was water tight so even the worst of flood couldn't drown him, this is still true tonthis very day, I know many people today who have shown the ability to rise above things that most definitely would have drowned people who hadn't prepared an ark....this is the reality of this mythological story. There is always a story behind the story dan, Hebrew's didn't waste words like we do, If they mention Siloam it wasn't just to tell people a physical location. Which is why I ask what was Siloam to them?. Stop reading the words like a westerner and read them through the eyes of Hebrew, it is a reflection of their culture and thought process after all...... You are forgetting the pharisee's piker. They believed in an afterlife. They believe in a soul and after life. Guess what they were Hebrews...
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Post by Dan on Aug 28, 2023 23:33:30 GMT -5
The Greeks didn't invent hell, they and the RCC may have expounded on what it is, but they did not invent it as you say; (the Greeks inserted the idea that your soul left you body after death and went up to heaven or down to hell, that wasn't the Hebrew's). "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). And Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Hell is the waiting room for the Lake of Fire.
There is no reality in a myth. If miracles occurred, there is no myth. I said that your denial of miracles is changing reality into a myth. In other words, your assumption that no miracles could have happened leads you to extract an alternative meaning to those miracles which were clearly reported. The risen Christ was witnessed, his tomb was empty, he's not in his grave. That's the faith. Your request for proof is the mindset of a nonbeliever.
The significance of the blind man receiving his sight is explained in detail, read John 9. There's no story behind the story per se, the Pharisees didn't believe it either, so your in good company! When one accepts who Jesus was, the Word who spoke all things into existence, then its not a stretch to believe he could restore the sight of a blind man, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
When did I say the greeks invented hell??. To the Hebrew people when you died you were a dead soul. Your soul didn’t go anywhere. To the greeks your soul left your body and went up or down basically. Two totally different philosophies. So which philosophy are you applying to the scripture you have quoted, the Greeks version or the Hebrews?. And when you have decided which philosophy you are going to apply to the soul how does that work in conjunction with spirit as one verse you quoted said spirit?. I find it really confusing that on one hand you say there is no reality in myth when you clearly believe some mythological stories as literally true. I don't see you arguing that there are windows in the firmament? why not because its written as clearly as other things you believe are literally true but yet can provide nothing outside ofnthe words on a page to support the claim?, could it be perhaps that you can see with your own two eyes there are no windows in the firmament so never give those types of verses a second thought but yet you are quite happy to defend things that physically do not happen now and most likely back then all because you cannot verify with your own eyes but rather give you the hope of never ending life...... There is most definitely reality in myth, all you have to do is forget abiut trying to make them physicalpy literal and see how they represent people lived experiences, they are truer than true as the experiences described within these mythological stories are true across time. Noah for instance, building his ark out of a resilient material that was water tight so even the worst of flood couldn't drown him, this is still true tonthis very day, I know many people today who have shown the ability to rise above things that most definitely would have drowned people who hadn't prepared an ark....this is the reality of this mythological story. There is always a story behind the story dan, Hebrew's didn't waste words like we do, If they mention Siloam it wasn't just to tell people a physical location. Which is why I ask what was Siloam to them?. Stop reading the words like a westerner and read them through the eyes of Hebrew, it is a reflection of their culture and thought process after all......
Our soul is the immaterial eternal essence of our being. You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body. Your soul occupies a physical body, but its incorporeal and does not perish. Your spirit is the intellect/consciousness of your soul and is who you are. Your spirit & soul existed before your physical body, neither emanated materially or physically. God told Jeremiah "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jeremiah 1:5). In Luke 16:19–31, Jesus taught that the soul is not sleeping but alive and conscious after death. No soul has perished, your spirit & soul are inseparable, those saved will receive new bodies, while lost souls will perish in the Lake of Fire, that's the second death.
The phrase, "Windows in the heavens were opened" ((Genesis 7:11) is not a literal window, that Hebrew word is "challon". The Strong's concordance defines window in Gen 7:11 as "arubbah" and the definition is "sluice" meaning showering with water.
Its never been my contention that everything in the bible is 100% literal, it has its own lingo using expressions, symbolic references, parables, etc. But something as simple as the Pool of Siloam is a literal reference and not symbolic of anything, this is what it is today:
I still contend that there is no reality in a myth. It may be a fake story to illustrate a moral lesson, but a myth by definition is a false belief. The bible is only a book of puzzling mythological stories to those who won't believe it. When it says that Jesus restored a man's sight, its not a symbolic, metaphorical, or figurative reference that means something else. Its means exactly what it says.
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Post by fdwmaw on Aug 29, 2023 20:21:41 GMT -5
Sitting in a gospel meeting recently, I was listening to the workers speak. Not to the message, but how they projected the message. Aware that most, if not all of workers are basically untrained in adult life, uneducated in scripture and monitored and controlled by the overseers, it occurred to me that they are not "preaching" the gospel, they are merely amateur motivational speakers. They get a thought in their head and look up scripture relating to that thought, or vice versa, and basically make their own parables and present to those congregated. They talk about others "friends" who are so faithful and those who have been faithful to the end, making it a raw raw cheerleading session. "You can be just like them! Make your choice and join the faithful God chosen few". Though most motivational speakers speak to their audience using positive reinforcement, they use both positive and negative to brainwash their audience of what they consider to be right (the 2x2 way) and wrong (the way of the world). The definition of a motivational speaker: A motivational speaker is a business professional who delivers speeches designed to inspire and motivate people in the audience. Also known as "inspirational speakers," these individuals are gifted in the art of persuasion. They positively present their ideas and encourage others to follow their way of thinking.
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 29, 2023 20:24:30 GMT -5
CSA training is confirmation of this. They were led by the same "holy spirit" you talk about.....Mr Bruer was a shining light until he wasn't........same with all these other scumbags..... Uh huh, which book in the bible has CSA training in it like we have today? One who commits something as grave as CSA or hides it wasn't "Holy Spirit led". A bit of Discernment would help you to know that. I won't hold my breath. Just sayin' Does scripture ever mention that before getting to Heaven, we'll know everything and are 100% perfect now? If so Book, Chapter and verse please. He sure was able to fool a lot of people who supposedly had and still have the HS now wasn’t he? So much for the HS producing discernment!
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 29, 2023 20:29:53 GMT -5
Listening to the messages from the platform at GV I honestly don't see how their message could be motivating. It was not encouraging and it was really depressing. I never realized just how much they focus on death and losing out when I went all the time. Years later listening to it again, I was really amazed at how depressing the message was. I find it hilarious in relation to what you (and many others) have observed that Jesus supposedly said this: “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 29, 2023 20:38:13 GMT -5
We definitely get the wrong idea of what love looks like when they preach the doom and gloom and then tell us God is Love. Make sure you don't love yourself because that would be vain and ungodly. What a load of mixed messages they preached. No wonder we're seeing so many stories now of how messed up people have been and are slowly understanding it now that they have left.
The bible (OT) is mostly gloom and doom.. If not for Christ, I'd have a hard time reconciling "God is love".. Its a good thing Jesus came and showed us love. Its really not 'mixed messages', there's just 2 sides to the coin and its important to absorb them both. The Lord saving us demonstrated his divine love for us, while our rejecting him demonstrates the opposite. Unfortunately, not reciprocating that love has some serious repercussions (death), and the Workers would be in dereliction of duty not to point that out.
But admittedly, it is more soul soothing and inspirational to hear that the promise of salvation is guaranteed, instead of getting constant warnings about the Wrath of God falling upon those who don't abide by their rules. Too much of that leaves one feeling that they're never good enough no matter how hard they try. The realization that Believer's do not come under condemning judgement and that our Accuser was defeated at Calvary, is something that seems
to have evaded them, making his yoke hard and his burden heavy. They have the Truth, but tend to make their Way too difficult for anyone to adhere by. Life is tough enough without extra religious dogma weighing you down.
Initially, you sound like a member of the WBC.
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Post by fdwmaw on Aug 29, 2023 20:40:18 GMT -5
Many of the workers could use a course in public speaking. Some of the younger workers with education past high school do have some speaking ability as they make eye contact with the audience and have a message with an introduction, presentation, and a definite close. The audience should be left with some type of feeling after hearing the sermon. The feeling could be inspirational, motivational, or even total disagreement as those are all feelings. I have spent many hours looking at my watch and waiting for the time for the worker to wrap up the sermon and move on to another worker or dismissal. Some of our workers would never make it in a denominational church as the elders of the church could have them removed. I look at the speaking list before I attend the meeting and select the workers who have some speaking ability. I am old and have trouble hearing the sister workers speak and usually get little from their sermon. The sermon should start by telling the audience what they are going to tell them before telling them and then telling them what they told them prior to the close. You should react by being emotionally moved, sad, happy, mad, or maybe nothing, which is sometimes the case.
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