Post by snoopydog on Aug 6, 2007 11:04:12 GMT -5
Why isn't the "Church" in heaven?
Chapters four through nineteen don't just describe the tribulation. There are numerous descriptions of the events in heaven during this time, notably, all of chapters 4&5, 6:9-11, 8:1-6, 11:15-17, 14:1-5, all of chapter 15, & 19:1-10. These extensive passages mention the twenty four elders, angels, four beasts, and multitudes of saints. But, not once is the word "Church" used to describe them. Furthermore, chapters 20 through 22 describe the millennium, the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem. Not once is the word "Church" used in connection with these. If we apply the pre-trib logic to these passages, we must conclude that the "Church" will not be in heaven, nor will she participate in the millennium, or the eternal state! She has simply vanished!
The word "Church" is misunderstood.
A serious problem with this line of reasoning is the use of the word "Church." The Bible does not use the word "Church" in the way pre-tribbers use it. To them, it means, "all saints saved between Pentecost and the tribulation." But this is an artificial definition based on a dispensational premise. It is not Paul's, nor the early Christians, definition. The early Christians believed they were the true Israel. The "Church" included Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the saints of Hebrews Eleven. This can be demonstrated easily from three passages.
1. In Matt. 18:17, Jesus referred to his band of disciples as the "Church" when instructing them about Church discipline, long before the day of Pentecost.
2. In Stephen's defence before his accusers, he called Old Testament Israel, the "Church in the wilderness," [Acts 7:38].
3. In Hebrews 2:12, Paul quoted Psalm 22:22 and used the word "Church" to describe the Old Testament Jews in worship.
These verses prove that the New Testament usage of this word is not exclusive to saints between Pentecost and the tribulation. If your understanding of a word used in Scripture is not what the writer intended, you will misunderstand the thought he is presenting. He might as well be speaking a foreign tongue.
Some may contend that Jesus spoke of the "Church" as being in the future in Matthew 16:18, "Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." It was in the future when He said this before the crucifixion. His building His Church refers to the focal point in time when He would become the blood sacrifice for all mankind. When Jesus was crucified, He went to the compartment of hades called "paradise," where all of the saints of the Old Testament were waiting, [Luke 16:22,23, Luke 23:43]. While there He presented the Gospel to them, which of course they believed, since they were already the people of faith, [1 Pet. 3:18-20 & 4:6]. He "led captivity captive" by bringing these saints out of paradise into the presence of God, [Eph. 4:8-10]. He also gave spiritual gifts to the living saints. This single act of building Christ's Church, which the "gates of hell" could not prevent, united all saints of the distant past, and saints of the distant future, into one body, the body of Christ, [Eph. 1:9,10 & 3:14,15]. The fact that the blood of Jesus cleanses all sinners, demands this union of all those who have been cleansed by His blood, [Heb. 10:10-14]. This single act united the saints of the Old and New Testaments, [Heb. 9:15, Heb. 11:40, Heb. 11:8-10 & Heb. 12:22,23 ]. This is Jesus' Church.
The use of the word "Church" in Revelation.
John addressed this book to the seven "churches" in Asia Minor. Every time the word "church" [or "churches"] is used, it always means a local church. It is never used in the universal sense in Revelation. It is used to address each church individually in chapters two and three. The remainder of the book was not intended to be a private message limited to any local church, but is a message to all believers of all generations. Therefore, the word "saints" is used throughout the book to identify saints in heaven, as well as those still on earth during the tribulation.
Chapters four through nineteen don't just describe the tribulation. There are numerous descriptions of the events in heaven during this time, notably, all of chapters 4&5, 6:9-11, 8:1-6, 11:15-17, 14:1-5, all of chapter 15, & 19:1-10. These extensive passages mention the twenty four elders, angels, four beasts, and multitudes of saints. But, not once is the word "Church" used to describe them. Furthermore, chapters 20 through 22 describe the millennium, the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem. Not once is the word "Church" used in connection with these. If we apply the pre-trib logic to these passages, we must conclude that the "Church" will not be in heaven, nor will she participate in the millennium, or the eternal state! She has simply vanished!
The word "Church" is misunderstood.
A serious problem with this line of reasoning is the use of the word "Church." The Bible does not use the word "Church" in the way pre-tribbers use it. To them, it means, "all saints saved between Pentecost and the tribulation." But this is an artificial definition based on a dispensational premise. It is not Paul's, nor the early Christians, definition. The early Christians believed they were the true Israel. The "Church" included Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the saints of Hebrews Eleven. This can be demonstrated easily from three passages.
1. In Matt. 18:17, Jesus referred to his band of disciples as the "Church" when instructing them about Church discipline, long before the day of Pentecost.
2. In Stephen's defence before his accusers, he called Old Testament Israel, the "Church in the wilderness," [Acts 7:38].
3. In Hebrews 2:12, Paul quoted Psalm 22:22 and used the word "Church" to describe the Old Testament Jews in worship.
These verses prove that the New Testament usage of this word is not exclusive to saints between Pentecost and the tribulation. If your understanding of a word used in Scripture is not what the writer intended, you will misunderstand the thought he is presenting. He might as well be speaking a foreign tongue.
Some may contend that Jesus spoke of the "Church" as being in the future in Matthew 16:18, "Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." It was in the future when He said this before the crucifixion. His building His Church refers to the focal point in time when He would become the blood sacrifice for all mankind. When Jesus was crucified, He went to the compartment of hades called "paradise," where all of the saints of the Old Testament were waiting, [Luke 16:22,23, Luke 23:43]. While there He presented the Gospel to them, which of course they believed, since they were already the people of faith, [1 Pet. 3:18-20 & 4:6]. He "led captivity captive" by bringing these saints out of paradise into the presence of God, [Eph. 4:8-10]. He also gave spiritual gifts to the living saints. This single act of building Christ's Church, which the "gates of hell" could not prevent, united all saints of the distant past, and saints of the distant future, into one body, the body of Christ, [Eph. 1:9,10 & 3:14,15]. The fact that the blood of Jesus cleanses all sinners, demands this union of all those who have been cleansed by His blood, [Heb. 10:10-14]. This single act united the saints of the Old and New Testaments, [Heb. 9:15, Heb. 11:40, Heb. 11:8-10 & Heb. 12:22,23 ]. This is Jesus' Church.
The use of the word "Church" in Revelation.
John addressed this book to the seven "churches" in Asia Minor. Every time the word "church" [or "churches"] is used, it always means a local church. It is never used in the universal sense in Revelation. It is used to address each church individually in chapters two and three. The remainder of the book was not intended to be a private message limited to any local church, but is a message to all believers of all generations. Therefore, the word "saints" is used throughout the book to identify saints in heaven, as well as those still on earth during the tribulation.