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Post by learner on Jul 30, 2023 4:16:57 GMT -5
I was wondering. Has there been any research around the notion that CSA is more prevalent in churches where the ministers are celibate? I know that there are some friends that conflate this scandal and rationalise it by saying, oh well - it is bad but all churches have it. Nothing to see here. BUT, I was wondering whether there has been any research on this topic. Why do F&W and Catholics have so much? Do anglicans? Presbyterians?
What about Muslim mosques? Do they have the same prevalence of CSA. I think they are all encouraged to marry. Hindu priests can marry? Do they have same prevalence?
I know there are two issues here: the occurrence of CSA, and then the organisational response. My question around research only looks at the first issue.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2023 4:27:30 GMT -5
I was wondering. Has there been any research around the notion that CSA is more prevalent in churches where the ministers are celibate? I know that there are some friends that conflate this scandal and rationalise it by saying, oh well - it is bad but all churches have it. Nothing to see here. BUT, I was wondering whether there has been any research on this topic. Why do F&W and Catholics have so much? Do anglicans? Presbyterians? What about Muslim mosques? Do they have the same prevalence of CSA. I think they are all encouraged to marry. Hindu priests can marry? Do they have same prevalence? I know there are two issues here: the occurrence of CSA, and then the organisational response. My question around research only looks at the first issue. Another factor is the ability to uncover abuse. You can't just rock up to a mosque and interview everyone.
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Post by learner on Jul 30, 2023 4:46:33 GMT -5
I was wondering. Has there been any research around the notion that CSA is more prevalent in churches where the ministers are celibate? I know that there are some friends that conflate this scandal and rationalise it by saying, oh well - it is bad but all churches have it. Nothing to see here. BUT, I was wondering whether there has been any research on this topic. Why do F&W and Catholics have so much? Do anglicans? Presbyterians? What about Muslim mosques? Do they have the same prevalence of CSA. I think they are all encouraged to marry. Hindu priests can marry? Do they have same prevalence? I know there are two issues here: the occurrence of CSA, and then the organisational response. My question around research only looks at the first issue. Another factor is the ability to uncover abuse. You can't just rock up to a mosque and interview everyone. I get it - rocking up to a mosque and interviewing everyone.Not going to happen. I am sure that someone somewhere has done research on why the RCC had so much abuse, and looks like F & W is up there too in stats. I have just spent a few minutes looking and found this : www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/sep/13/catholic-sexual-abuse-partly-caused-by-celibacy-and-secrecy-report-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_OtherEdit: for clarity Edit #2: this paragraph was pertinent Among the findings was that mandatory celibacy was and remains “the major precipitating risk factor for child sexual abuse” and that popes and bishops created a culture of secrecy, leading to a series of gross failures in transparency, accountability, openness and trust.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2023 8:24:15 GMT -5
I was wondering. Has there been any research around the notion that CSA is more prevalent in churches where the ministers are celibate? I know that there are some friends that conflate this scandal and rationalise it by saying, oh well - it is bad but all churches have it. Nothing to see here. BUT, I was wondering whether there has been any research on this topic. Why do F&W and Catholics have so much? Do anglicans? Presbyterians? What about Muslim mosques? Do they have the same prevalence of CSA. I think they are all encouraged to marry. Hindu priests can marry? Do they have same prevalence? I know there are two issues here: the occurrence of CSA, and then the organisational response. My question around research only looks at the first issue. It is everywhere. My Aunt and Uncle went Lutheran over this very issue in 2010ish. Didn't take me long to find a few cases there too. If you leave because of someone else sinning, you'll never find anywhere to fellowship/worship...
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Post by Persona non grata on Jul 30, 2023 9:05:36 GMT -5
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Post by cheryl8787 on Jul 30, 2023 9:17:45 GMT -5
There are many things going on with regards to celibate ministers and CSA - it's not a straight-forward issue. First, the Roman Catholic Church has a super high rate of homosexual priests and religious (monks, nuns, brothers, sisters). It is estimated that about 50% of all RCC diocesan priests are homosexual. In some RCC religious orders (Jesuits for example), the rate is above 75% homosexual. There are reasons for this, mostly pertaining to the homosexual grooming that used to go on in junior seminaries (boarding schools for high-school aged boys who were interested in becoming priests). Junior seminaries have almost all been closed now, additionally the RCC now screens out seminary candidates for homosexual inclinations. Nevertheless, there is one apples-to-apple comparison that can be made with Roman Catholic priests and Ukrainian Catholic priests, the latter who are married while the former are celibate. The research about this has been done by Gene Gomulka www.youtube.com/watch?v=42X6-beP20QThe vast majority of RCC CSA cases have been homosexual priests on post-pubescent boys. This is the reverse of what goes on with 2x2 workers who are for the most part heterosexual CSA cases on post-pubescent girls. It has been estimated that about 20-30% of 2x2 workers are homosexual, and mostly they do their 'business' with other workers, not CSA. There is also a significant number of heterosexual 2x2 workers who have been or are involved in heterosexual relations with other workers or friends.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2023 10:40:51 GMT -5
Celibacy isn't it, if it were then only single celibate people would be pedo's, but more than just a few are married...
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Post by getreal on Jul 30, 2023 12:38:52 GMT -5
There are many things going on with regards to celibate ministers and CSA - it's not a straight-forward issue. First, the Roman Catholic Church has a super high rate of homosexual priests and religious (monks, nuns, brothers, sisters). It is estimated that about 50% of all RCC diocesan priests are homosexual. In some RCC religious orders (Jesuits for example), the rate is above 75% homosexual. There are reasons for this, mostly pertaining to the homosexual grooming that used to go on in junior seminaries (boarding schools for high-school aged boys who were interested in becoming priests). Junior seminaries have almost all been closed now, additionally the RCC now screens out seminary candidates for homosexual inclinations. Nevertheless, there is one apples-to-apple comparison that can be made with RCC priests and Ukrainian Catholic Priests, the latter who are married while the former are celibate. The research about this has been done by Gene Gomulka www.youtube.com/watch?v=42X6-beP20QThe vast majority of RCC CSA cases have been homosexual priests on post-pubescent boys. This is the reverse of what goes on with 2x2 workers who are for the most part heterosexual CSA cases on post-pubescent girls. It has been estimated that about 20-30% of 2x2 workers are homosexual, and mostly they do their 'business' with other workers, not CSA. There is also a significant number of heterosexual 2x2 workers who have been or are involved in heterosexual relations with other workers or friends. Interesting. The subject of this posting suggests that there are at least some religions out there with clerical celibacy as a rule but how many are there? Maybe just 2. The Catholics and the w and f. And like you say they are in large part apples and oranges so there isn’t much or any research you could apply to this group. So no data, no conclusions are really possible. It would be interesting for someone in academia to study csa and sa within this church.
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Post by cheryl8787 on Jul 30, 2023 13:04:35 GMT -5
Interesting. The subject of this posting suggests that there are at least some religions out there with clerical celibacy as a rule but how many are there? Maybe just 2. The Catholics and the w and f. And like you say they are in large part apples and oranges so there isn’t much or any research you could apply to this group. So no data, no conclusions are really possible. It would be interesting for someone in academia to study csa and sa within this church.
There is a large amount of CSA among ultra-orthodox Jews. There are many ultra-orthodox Jewish sects (Satmar, Bobov, Chabad-Lubavitch, Skver, etc, etc) and all of them are infested with super high rates of CSA despite there no celibacy rules for these groups. The key factor is that these groups are high-control cults with zero interaction to the outside world (not even outside schools). In some cases the leaders of these groups will have harems. www.youtube.com/watch?v=m95BTIEpvOc
The similarities between the high-control characteristics of ultra-orthodox Jewish sects and the 2x2 ministry are many. Particularly when one considers that those folks who become 2x2 ministers almost exclusively come from high-control home-lives. In other words, the most worldly of the 2x2 families do not produce 2x2 ministers.
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Post by getreal on Jul 30, 2023 13:08:32 GMT -5
The cult at Waco is another example. Some sects of Mormonism. High control and little individual sense of agency to question authority. Its a perfect Petri dish.
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Post by Persona non grata on Jul 30, 2023 13:29:52 GMT -5
Celibacy isn't it, if it were then only single celibate people would be pedo's, but more than just a few are married... Exactly! It’s not the celibacy that’s the problem; it’s rather the environment that has been created where sexuality is a taboo subject, and sexual deviants are sheltered, and abuse covered up, to protect the reputation of the ministry/fellowship. There’s a horrific example, previously discussed on this board, of a worker who had homosexual relationships while in the work. He left, got married, had children, only to go on and abuse many boys at conventions, and even his own sons. The point is that removing celibacy from the equation didn’t solve anything.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2023 14:23:35 GMT -5
Celibacy isn't it, if it were then only single celibate people would be pedo's, but more than just a few are married... Rape and CSA are not caused by a celibate ministry, but the celibate ministry is a good place to hide if you are a pedophile or an abuser because the ministers are trusted to such a high degree. The members of the church think that these ministers are someone they can be safe around. That illusion has been broken with the RCC exposure. Now the 2x2's are learning that they have quite a few among them too. Rape is a crime of power/anger.
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Post by chuck on Jul 30, 2023 20:07:32 GMT -5
Celibacy isn't it, if it were then only single celibate people would be pedo's, but more than just a few are married... Rape and CSA are not caused by a celibate ministry, but the celibate ministry is a good place to hide if you are a pedophile or an abuser because the ministers are trusted to such a high degree. The members of the church think that these ministers are someone they can be safe around. That illusion has been broken with the RCC exposure. Now the 2x2's are learning that they have quite a few among them too. Rape is a crime of power/anger. Why do you say celibacy is not the cause?. The drive to repoduce is a primal instinc, surely it plays some part as celibacy goes against this instinc?. Being dominant is in many cases about the ability to repoduce successfully, it's part of evolution?. Being celibate must be immensely frustrating to some and they eventually give in to it in some way shape or form. I'm not excusing the behaviour but just think celibacy definitely plays a role.
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2023 12:47:44 GMT -5
Rape and CSA are not caused by a celibate ministry, but the celibate ministry is a good place to hide if you are a pedophile or an abuser because the ministers are trusted to such a high degree. The members of the church think that these ministers are someone they can be safe around. That illusion has been broken with the RCC exposure. Now the 2x2's are learning that they have quite a few among them too. Rape is a crime of power/anger. Why do you say celibacy is not the cause?. The drive to repoduce is a primal instinc, surely it plays some part as celibacy goes against this instinc?. Being dominant is in many cases about the ability to repoduce successfully, it's part of evolution?. Being celibate must be immensely frustrating to some and they eventually give in to it in some way shape or form. I'm not excusing the behaviour but just think celibacy definitely plays a role. I say it's not the cause because rape isn't about sex. It's about power over and anger. I can see that a celibate ministry might have the tendency towards the workers having affairs with consensual adults, but if they are not inclined to prefer children or have the urge to dominate others then they won't be committing those kinds of offences. I don't see anything wrong with the stories of workers that have had consensual sex with other workers. I do have a problem with them having it with friends because of the power imbalance. So if workers have affairs with other workers (and that can even be problematic with power difference between brother and sister workers), I am not as concerned. I do agree it's not natural, but it's not the cause of rape and pedophilia. Married elders are among those that have done horrific things also.
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Post by getreal on Jul 31, 2023 18:26:56 GMT -5
There is a difference between cause and contributing factors. One cannot discount situational stressors that can contribute to types of behavior thatin other more normal less mentally deranging situations might never emerge. I have read in other platforms someone from a psychology background talking about this very thing and comparing the preparation that catholic priests undergo to cope with celibacy, years of preparation and learning and even then they have lots of issues. The f and w’s launched into this unnecessary and non biblical requirement for the ministry thoroughly ignorant of the consequences. So no you can’t call celibacy a singular cause but I believe further research within this extremely unusual group could very well identify celibacy as a contributing factor for some people. I don’t think we have the research to rule it out. And let me say once again in the work I saw a lot of mental illness. I was mentally unwell and those of you who have been around workers in the last 30 years know how many have mental issues, odd behaviors, eccentricities, varieties of physical illnesses related to stress and needing to rest and all those who have left due to mental stress and issues. Its not healthy in so many ways for humans.
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Post by getreal on Jul 31, 2023 18:35:34 GMT -5
And just one more thing. The group members as a whole have to live with so much self denial and guilt. Not just workers. Excessive imposed self denial and frankly boredom. All contributing factors for all sorts of manifestations of behaviors people might otherwise not express. I just don’t think you can separate behavior from the extremely abnormal and unhealthy life people are expected to live. If rates of csa and sa are higher than other churches, if they are, there has to be a reason.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 31, 2023 20:08:08 GMT -5
There is a difference between cause and contributing factors. One cannot discount situational stressors that can contribute to types of behavior thatin other more normal less mentally deranging situations might never emerge. I have read in other platforms someone from a psychology background talking about this very thing and comparing the preparation that catholic priests undergo to cope with celibacy, years of preparation and learning and even then they have lots of issues. The f and w’s launched into this unnecessary and non biblical requirement for the ministry thoroughly ignorant of the consequences. So no you can’t call celibacy a singular cause but I believe further research within this extremely unusual group could very well identify celibacy as a contributing factor for some people. I don’t think we have the research to rule it out. And let me say once again in the work I saw a lot of mental illness. I was mentally unwell and those of you who have been around workers in the last 30 years know how many have mental issues, odd behaviors, eccentricities, varieties of physical illnesses related to stress and needing to rest and all those who have left due to mental stress and issues. Its not healthy in so many ways for humans. I’ve started thinking about mental illness in 2X2ism, particularly in regards to some at the upper echelons of power. I do believe it exists and is far more prevalent than most of us might ever imagine. What amazes me is that you seem to be incredibly together now, not that it is any of my business.
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Post by getreal on Jul 31, 2023 20:37:25 GMT -5
I am not. The reasons that drew me to the group was an unloving family and emotionally and sometimes physically neglectful parents and then I suffered a good deal of trauma and emotional abuse in the work and some days it is like an anvil of sadness pressing on my chest. I have recently finally accepted that I must sever contact with my family and not having children well, other than my husband and dog we are alone in the world. It’s scary but I do feel strong because it is far better to face things and be a victor than a victim. And thank you for asking. I do not share the details. Who needs another long sad story.
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2023 13:26:28 GMT -5
There is a difference between cause and contributing factors. One cannot discount situational stressors that can contribute to types of behavior thatin other more normal less mentally deranging situations might never emerge. I have read in other platforms someone from a psychology background talking about this very thing and comparing the preparation that catholic priests undergo to cope with celibacy, years of preparation and learning and even then they have lots of issues. The f and w’s launched into this unnecessary and non biblical requirement for the ministry thoroughly ignorant of the consequences. So no you can’t call celibacy a singular cause but I believe further research within this extremely unusual group could very well identify celibacy as a contributing factor for some people. I don’t think we have the research to rule it out. And let me say once again in the work I saw a lot of mental illness. I was mentally unwell and those of you who have been around workers in the last 30 years know how many have mental issues, odd behaviors, eccentricities, varieties of physical illnesses related to stress and needing to rest and all those who have left due to mental stress and issues. Its not healthy in so many ways for humans. I do agree that there is a lot of mental health issues in the church. I am seeing it reading the posts on the exes group that are suffering from the guilt and shame they have lived with for years that contributed to depression and PTSD and other health issues. But just because you have mental health issues doesn't mean you're going to commit CSA or rape of adults. I will allow that the 2x2 church is a good place for abusers to hide due to the level of trust they put in the workers and even each other. It's a very naive stance but it definitely exists. If someone is professing they are far more likely to trust them just on that merit alone. So that kind of mindset is likely why CSA/SA is more prevalent in religious organizations. How could a 'man of god' be anything but saintly? I know growing up that I trusted the friends and thought I was safe with the workers. I never once considered as a child that I would come to any harm alone overnight at a convention.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 1, 2023 13:35:31 GMT -5
There is a difference between cause and contributing factors. One cannot discount situational stressors that can contribute to types of behavior thatin other more normal less mentally deranging situations might never emerge. I have read in other platforms someone from a psychology background talking about this very thing and comparing the preparation that catholic priests undergo to cope with celibacy, years of preparation and learning and even then they have lots of issues. The f and w’s launched into this unnecessary and non biblical requirement for the ministry thoroughly ignorant of the consequences. So no you can’t call celibacy a singular cause but I believe further research within this extremely unusual group could very well identify celibacy as a contributing factor for some people. I don’t think we have the research to rule it out. And let me say once again in the work I saw a lot of mental illness. I was mentally unwell and those of you who have been around workers in the last 30 years know how many have mental issues, odd behaviors, eccentricities, varieties of physical illnesses related to stress and needing to rest and all those who have left due to mental stress and issues. Its not healthy in so many ways for humans. I’ve started thinking about mental illness in 2X2ism, particularly in regards to some at the upper echelons of power. I do believe it exists and is far more prevalent than most of us might ever imagine. What amazes me is that you seem to be incredibly together now, not that it is any of my business. The belief in a mythical creator,and worship of, the act of praying and the belief that one hears answers to those prayers requires one to have a degree of psychosis.
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Post by mountain on Aug 1, 2023 16:06:35 GMT -5
I’ve started thinking about mental illness in 2X2ism, particularly in regards to some at the upper echelons of power. I do believe it exists and is far more prevalent than most of us might ever imagine. What amazes me is that you seem to be incredibly together now, not that it is any of my business. The belief in a mythical creator,and worship of, the act of praying and the belief that one hears answers to those prayers requires one to have a degree of psychosis. Okay, we're all nutters. That answers everything. Next subject?
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