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Post by _ on Aug 5, 2007 18:47:55 GMT -5
In another thread you made the following statement -
I repeat this for the umpteenth time: I can allow that "Salvation is possible outside of the Church, but not outside of Christ."
Something being possible is far different then something being probable/presumed/ accepted/inferred/believed/understood...
Common in the 2x2 church are those who hold an exclusive mindset saying salvation is possible outside the fellowship... but they are speaking of exceptions and special cases and not the norm... When pressed for an example, often tribesmen in jungles are talked about who have never come into contact with the 2x2 fellowship... rather then members of local fellowship churches down the street...
So in light of this common response, I must request clarification of your statement...
Do you believe salvation is just possible outside your fellowship, or do you acknowledge it is probable to the point of being the norm for those in the evangelical community who call themselves Christian?
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 5, 2007 18:56:27 GMT -5
Bryan,
I get dozens of requests for information. People ask me many questions to which they desire an answer. I also have certain topics I wish to discuss, such as Church Doctrine.
I therefore prioritise certain posts and jobs over others. If I feel I have already answered a question in the past, and answered it adequately - as I believe I have in relation to the question you have put to me - I am unlikely to respond if other more pressing issues are at hand.
Otherwise I could end up spending hours and hours on this forum. It is simply humanly impossible.
Regards.
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Post by _ on Aug 5, 2007 19:05:59 GMT -5
GIT,
You have not adequately answered the question because you've never answered it.
As for your dozens of requests and many questions... I find it odd that you turn down this valid and reasonable question, but have no problem responding to trivial attacks made by anonymous posters.
However since you feel pressed for time, I will simply keep reposting this question until you find the time... fair enough?
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Post by the real truth on Aug 5, 2007 19:26:22 GMT -5
git doesn't want to be forced to admit that he doesn't believe that salvation is possible outside of 2x2ism.
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Post by Jessi on Aug 5, 2007 20:11:14 GMT -5
Bryan, I get dozens of requests for information. People ask me many questions to which they desire an answer. I also have certain topics I wish to discuss, such as Church Doctrine. I therefore prioritise certain posts and jobs over others. If I feel I have already answered a question in the past, and answered it adequately - as I believe I have in relation to the question you have put to me - I am unlikely to respond if other more pressing issues are at hand. Otherwise I could end up spending hours and hours on this forum. It is simply humanly impossible. Regards. Dear GiT: I Peter 3:15 Do you feel this Biblical text applies when someone asks you a question . . . concerning the Salvation of souls? I have found the NIV, your favorite: "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect . . . " Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by Anonymous on Aug 5, 2007 21:13:17 GMT -5
Do you believe salvation is just possible outside your fellowship, or do you acknowledge it is probable to the point of being the norm for those in the evangelical community who call themselves Christian? God knows. GIT and bert and nathan9 and any others can do no twisting or spinning or evading or equivocating that will confound or fool God.
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Post by You Vessel on Aug 5, 2007 21:45:36 GMT -5
God knows. GIT and bert and nathan9 and any others can do no twisting or spinning or evading or equivocating that will confound or fool God. Are you one of Greg Lee's followers? You write a lot like him. What's a bunch of hogwash. He writes as an anonymous when he attacks others so nobody knows he is doing it. Yes, he is alive and kicking posting on here as anonymous.Is dirty on the inside and the outside. You are gulty also.
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 6, 2007 12:22:32 GMT -5
Bump!
GIT,
'Still waiting to an answer to this very important question, which I haven't seen an answer to. If you have indeed answered it before, will you please refresh it here by referring to it (where it is).
Best regards, Edy
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Post by still true on Aug 6, 2007 13:18:46 GMT -5
git doesn't want to be forced to admit that he doesn't believe that salvation is possible outside of 2x2ism. ...still true
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Post by _ on Aug 6, 2007 17:39:11 GMT -5
GIT,
I see you're online right now...
Care to give an answer to my question?
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 6, 2007 17:48:46 GMT -5
[Bryan Wrote] So in light of this common response, I must request clarification of your statement...
Do you believe salvation is just possible outside your fellowship, or do you acknowledge it is probable to the point of being the norm for those in the evangelical community who call themselves Christian?
Although I do not believe that it is my place to ascribe the extent of salvation, which is God's right alone, I do believe that many participants of conservative, orthodox, Protestant churches are saved - for example, conservative Anglicans who hold to the Reformed ideals. Those who take the Faith seriously, and are totally committed to it, are those I respect.
I am no longer sure about the evangelical community. Being a long-time reader of Christianity Today, Touchstone Magazine, etc, the flagship publications of the evangelical church, I have long noticed a willingness to compromise on theology; a joining of hands with Roman Catholics; a brushing over doctrine in favour of unity; and the most hideous and outrageous abuses in worship in the name of "relevance".
As some prominent scholars maintain, we live in a post-evangelical age. Or, we live in an age where evangelicalism has found itself "new gods", such as the god of congregant numbers.
I have strong reservations about all forms of liberal Christianity, which indeed, I believe it is not Christianity at all and therefore has no power to save.
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Post by _ on Aug 6, 2007 17:50:40 GMT -5
Thank you for answering my question...
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Post by _ on Aug 6, 2007 17:56:04 GMT -5
I do feel the need to note that people have been excommunicated from your fellowship for saying the same thing...
And so I would be careful, if I were you, to hide this belief from your fellow brethren out of fear of being put out of the Friends and Worker's fellowship...
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 6, 2007 18:02:58 GMT -5
[Bryan Wrote] So in light of this common response, I must request clarification of your statement...
Do you believe salvation is just possible outside your fellowship, or do you acknowledge it is probable to the point of being the norm for those in the evangelical community who call themselves Christian?Although I do not believe that it is my place to ascribe the extent of salvation, which is God's right alone, I do believe that many participants of conservative, orthodox, Protestant churches are saved - for example, conservative Anglicans who hold to the Reformed ideals. Those who take the Faith seriously, and are totally committed to it, are those I respect. I am no longer sure about the evangelical community. Being a long-time reader of Christianity Today, Touchstone Magazine, etc, the flagship publications of the evangelical church, I have long noticed a willingness to compromise on theology; a joining of hands with Roman Catholics; a brushing over doctrine in favour of unity; and the most hideous and outrageous abuses in worship in the name of "relevance". As some prominent scholars maintain, we live in a post-evangelical age. Or, we live in an age where evangelicalism has found itself "new gods", such as the god of congregant numbers. I have strong reservations about all forms of liberal Christianity, which indeed, I believe it is not Christianity at all and therefore has no power to save. Do you see salvation as a "gift" that cannot be earned? And if so, do you see a difference between the gift of salvation and the "rewards" spoken of in Scripture? (One example is 1 Cor. 3:10-15.) I ask this because of your statement about "the extent of salvation". Thanx! Edy
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Post by _ on Aug 10, 2007 13:30:43 GMT -5
Follow-up question,
Although you stated, "many participants of conservative, orthodox, Protestant churches are saved"... you still believe, the fellowship IS the one true Church on the earth. And for all its failings and the feeble folk therein, it is where God dwells.
Is this correct?
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Post by OzE on Aug 10, 2007 19:22:23 GMT -5
GiT wrote a while ago:
"If a church cannot agree on, say, whether universalism is a biblical doctrine or not, then how can we view that church as being anything more than a collection of diverse elements present in the one place? A church body unified only by their denominational alliegience, but not unified by belief, doctrine, or faith is surely dead."
GiT, how can you claim that the F&W's are the "one true church" in light of your comments above?
Also your comment that you don't have time to answer peoples serious questions yet spend hours writing prolifically in response to some other people's posts is a little strange.
If you write such things you should be willing to expand and clarify what you write.
I hope you will this time, please.
Elaine.
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Post by the real truth on Aug 10, 2007 19:25:13 GMT -5
Bryan, I get dozens of requests for information. People ask me many questions to which they desire an answer. I also have certain topics I wish to discuss, such as Church Doctrine. I therefore prioritise certain posts and jobs over others. If I feel I have already answered a question in the past, and answered it adequately - as I believe I have in relation to the question you have put to me - I am unlikely to respond if other more pressing issues are at hand. Otherwise I could end up spending hours and hours on this forum. It is simply humanly impossible. Regards. translation: GIT believes that non-2x2s are doomed to a lost eternity because they are not 2x2s.
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 10, 2007 20:54:05 GMT -5
Although you stated, "many participants of conservative, orthodox, Protestant churches are saved"... you still believe, the fellowship IS the one true Church on the earth. And for all its failings and the feeble folk therein, it is where God dwells. Is this correct?[/quote][/color][/b]
Bryan, it was not so long ago that you published a list of reasons why you left the fellowship, and then expressed surprise that so much time was devoted to the issue of meeting in homes.
I agree with you that this question of the location of worship recieves far too much "air time" on the TMB, when we would be much better served discussing other important doctrines - such as predestination, the Trinity, and the validity of women ministers, (which I have been addressing in the "Doctrines regarding the Church" thread).
I'm sure you can appreciate my own surprise and irritation when I recieve the same question over and over again: regarding MY position on salvation outside of the fellowship-Church.
I believe that I have more than adequately clarified my stance on this issue in the time I have been on the TMB. I have repeatedly stated my position; I have declared my beliefs openly regarding the Church and its interaction with the world; and my beliefs regarding the validity of the Church in contradistinction to other denominations.
I have nothing more to add to my previous disclosures. I simply will not continue answering questions ad nauseum on this topic.
(I wait in anticipation for the comments to follow about my intellectual inability, my slippery motives, my decietfulness, etc, etc, etc. I've heard it all before.)
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Post by confirmed on Aug 10, 2007 21:12:55 GMT -5
translation: GIT believes that non-2x2s are doomed to a lost eternity because they are not 2x2s. In other words, GIT cannot deny this because he would be lying.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2007 21:58:04 GMT -5
quote from GIT "His name is Bryan Hickok... A couple of months ago Bryan exposed my name, location, and some of my personal history in this forum - despite the fact that I registered here anonymously to protect such details, and to preserve family from any embarrassment that could be caused. (This is why I do NOT, as a consistent rule, mention people by name on this forum, or even discuss people who do not particpate here. I think I have never broken this personal rule.) As a consequence of seeing my details placed on a public forum, some anonymous posters decided to go through the internet searching for my name. They posted links to the many articles and posts I had made in different places through the years (someone even posted a link to a website with some of my joking posts I made in connection to the 2001 Australian election - and we're talking about it being 2007; as if this is relevant!) I re-entered a cycle of depression as a result. Connections were being made between me and things that I had no involvement in whatsoever. The final straw was being called "a waste of space" by some anonymous poster. I left this forum for about two or three months in order to recover.
To fmofthe2x2s. Who will be saved? It is those who have the spirit of Christ within them. Tell me what you think this "spirit of Christ" is?
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2007 1:22:50 GMT -5
Bert,
I fail to grasp what GIT's quote or your question has to do with this thread...
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Post by _ on Aug 11, 2007 2:03:40 GMT -5
Bryan, it was not so long ago that you published a list of reasons why you left the fellowship, and then expressed surprise that so much time was devoted to the issue of meeting in homes. I agree with you that this question of the location of worship recieves far too much "air time" on the TMB, when we would be much better served discussing other important doctrines - such as predestination, the Trinity, and the validity of women ministers, (which I have been addressing in the "Doctrines regarding the Church" thread). I'm sure you can appreciate my own surprise and irritation when I recieve the same question over and over again: regarding MY position on salvation outside of the fellowship-Church. I believe that I have more than adequately clarified my stance on this issue in the time I have been on the TMB. I have repeatedly stated my position; I have declared my beliefs openly regarding the Church and its interaction with the world; and my beliefs regarding the validity of the Church in contradistinction to other denominations. I have nothing more to add to my previous disclosures. I simply will not continue answering questions ad nauseum on this topic. (I wait in anticipation for the comments to follow about my intellectual inability, my slippery motives, my decietfulness, etc, etc, etc. I've heard it all before.)I have replied to you in a new thread entitled, All my quesitons to GIT and why...Please refer to the new thread for my response...
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