tulip2
Junior Member
Posts: 176
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Post by tulip2 on May 23, 2023 18:19:22 GMT -5
What has been the response among the Friends in Ireland and the UK (or Europe in general) to the current flood of CSA/SA immorality in the US?
Are people aware of what's happening?
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Post by kenco69 on Jun 13, 2023 10:17:25 GMT -5
I am aware of what has being going on and have been following these reports I have spoken to some about it who knew and indeed others were shocked to hear it This is a worldwide problem in the meetings I believe but many believe it's "Not Happening Here" A number of the workers mentioned have been visitors to Ireland and preached at us
There are Worker's Meetings in Ireland in Mid July for all the Irish, English & Scottish Workers These will be over 3 days with the last day being different from the others In what way I don't know but that has been said
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Jul 1, 2023 18:57:06 GMT -5
I am aware of what has being going on and have been following these reports I have spoken to some about it who knew and indeed others were shocked to hear it This is a worldwide problem in the meetings I believe but many believe it's "Not Happening Here" A number of the workers mentioned have been visitors to Ireland and preached at us There are Worker's Meetings in Ireland in Mid July for all the Irish, English & Scottish Workers These will be over 3 days with the last day being different from the others In what way I don't know but that has been said I agree but I think most are burying their heads in the sand and either don't realise that Abuse isn't something that only happens in other countries but is living here within the friends/workers Craig has been far too slow to act and now at this stage he needs to report the situations, to the authorities, tell those who are alleged to have committed SA/CSA to stay away from all meetings I heard that a disagreement occurred at Carrick Convention between Craig and an an elder Seemingly there was an alleged Sex Offender at the convention and Craig was asked to tell him to leave the grounds Craig refused,and once more is trying to convince himself nothing is happening on his watch Wake Up before you end up in court
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Post by themaninthemirror on Jul 2, 2023 2:54:55 GMT -5
I am aware of what has being going on and have been following these reports I have spoken to some about it who knew and indeed others were shocked to hear it This is a worldwide problem in the meetings I believe but many believe it's "Not Happening Here" A number of the workers mentioned have been visitors to Ireland and preached at us There are Worker's Meetings in Ireland in Mid July for all the Irish, English & Scottish Workers These will be over 3 days with the last day being different from the others In what way I don't know but that has been said I agree but I think most are burying their heads in the sand and either don't realise that Abuse isn't something that only happens in other countries but is living here within the friends/workers Craig has been far too slow to act and now at this stage he needs to report the situations, to the authorities, tell those who are alleged to have committed SA/CSA to stay away from all meetings I heard that a disagreement occurred at Carrick Convention between Craig and an an elder Seemingly there was an alleged Sex Offender at the convention and Craig was asked to tell him to leave the grounds Craig refused,and once more is trying to convince himself nothing is happening on his watch Wake Up before you end up in court According to the letter from Leah JG was asked to leave convention.
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Jul 2, 2023 8:06:47 GMT -5
I have been told that JG was asked to leave prior to Carrick Convention beginning
The disagreement between Craig and another over an elder that allegedly has committed a sex offence took place after everybody had assembled
I believe these are two different instances
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Post by themaninthemirror on Jul 3, 2023 9:16:19 GMT -5
I have been told that JG was asked to leave prior to Carrick Convention beginning The disagreement between Craig and another over an elder that allegedly has committed a sex offence took place after everybody had assembled I believe these are two different instances I guess it depends on the offence? If the offence was sexual harassment for example does it warrant full banning… I think there is a lot of nuance to some of these situations
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Post by jonathan on Jul 3, 2023 9:28:59 GMT -5
The Ministry Safe program states that sexual harrassement is serious, as is grooming. Both offences happens to a person without their consent, and is unacceptable.
Grooming is serious because it is the small, "innocent" beginning stages of gaining confidence and trust by using a position 9f authority or power.
If professing persons reads the Bible seriously and thoroughly, they will catch on that no harrassement of any sort is appropriate fur a Christian who reads, believes and follows the Bible.
If convicted a court of law will sentence according to the gravity 9f the offence. But the fellowship will safer and healthier if all kinds or measures of abuse can be dealt with so abuse can be to the minimum as it is still likely there will still be some. Hopefully much less than what has been the case up till now.
Interestingly, some states have had these awareness programs, and still there were overseers who continued with their abuse. We can also say they still had the Bible, before, during after they committed their offences and it only came to light after DB. 🤷
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Post by themaninthemirror on Jul 3, 2023 10:28:22 GMT -5
The Ministry Safe program states that sexual harrassement is serious, as is grooming. Both offences happens to a person without their consent, and is unacceptable. Grooming is serious because it is the small, "innocent" beginning stages of gaining confidence and trust by using a position 9f authority or power. If professing persons reads the Bible seriously and thoroughly, they will catch on that no harrassement of any sort is appropriate fur a Christian who reads, believes and follows the Bible. If convicted a court of law will sentence according to the gravity 9f the offence. But the fellowship will safer and healthier if all kinds or measures of abuse can be dealt with so abuse can be to the minimum as it is still likely there will still be some. Hopefully much less than what has been the case up till now. Interestingly, some states have had these awareness programs, and still there were overseers who continued with their abuse. We can also say they still had the Bible, before, during after they committed their offences and it only came to light after DB. 🤷 I don't think you got my point. So let me re-position it. In the Christian faith, Christ offers forgiveness to sinners. It seems in 2023, forgiveness of sin is limited in certain circumstances. 1. If a man commits murder, serves his time and professes can he attend meetings and convention? 2. If an 18 year old man sexually harasses a 17 year old girl (no physical contact), can he attend meetings and conventions? (ever?) 3. If a 30 year old married man said something inappropriate to a married woman, says sorry, both accept the apology, can he attend meetings and conventions? (ever?) I think you are almost treating these people like sin cannot exist. I completely understand that you don't want multiple unrepentant offenders, but there has to be some level of categorisation on this. You cant punish someone for manslaughter the same as for murder.
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Post by jonathan on Jul 3, 2023 12:48:25 GMT -5
themaninthemirror,
I think we are in agreement about outright serious offenses involving touch, right?
That being said, the lesser offenses would be the hardest to deal with as the interests of both sides have to be considered and weighed up.
For starters, I agree fully with you on letting it go and moving on when something inappropriate was said to an adult woman in an isolated case, ie once-off. The parties sort it out among themselves, and all are happy with the outcome. To me it wouldn't make sense to demand action still be taken, right?
I would think, and I'm not sure how this is going to happen, but I would be easy with giving a strong warning to someone who says something inappropriate to an adult lady, and it is the first time. However, if it continues a process is triggered.
This goes not just for saying something, but perhaps also for staring? Maybe behavior that causes discomfort even if nothing is said?
As serious as murder is, 1 Corinthians 5 and Ephesians 5:3,5,7 and 11 do not deal with murder. It deals specifically with sexual immorality.
We have already seen a convicted murderer repent fully, serve his time, and now have a precious and meaningful part in the fellowship. If I may say so, besides the person murdered, there are other victims of killing too. The perpetrator has to learn to live with his offense for the rest of his life. There are also the relatives of the murdered person. There are serial killers, but by far most killings are single victims. The proportion might vary from area to area as different factors come into play.
Possibly God sees sexual immorality as more serious than murder? Moses killed out of anger (totally unjustified) and he did not really suffer a penalty as harsh as when King David's son had to die after he fornicated with Bathsheba. I don't know, is this a possibility?
The problem with sexual immorality is that there is an inherent curve of increase and aggravation. It hardly ever is just a once-off offense and never a once-off suffering. Some victims of sexual immorality have wished they had rather died. It damages them to the level of their spirituality and affects their very personal service to God. No wonder Jesus spoke so harshly and said that it would be better for any who is a hindrance to a child to rather have a millstone tied around their neck and cast into the depths of the sea (Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42 and Luke 17:2). 1 Corinthians 5:5 says to cut such off, and Ephesians 5 says to expose them and not eat with them.
This brings the question of forgiveness.
Firstly we must remember God shows compassion to whom He will (Romans 9:15). That is God's prerogative and we cannot force our will or think onto God. This si why 2 Corinthians 7:10 is important.
There is still a way to salvation for those who are to be cut off. 1 Corinthians 5:5 says "to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 2 Corinthians 7:10 speaks of "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."
Motive (intention) plays a huge role in decerning between murder and manslaughter. Killing by accident or negligence, without motive or intention could rather be manslaughter than first-degree murder. With sexual immorality motive or intention plays a lesser role. It seems the impact it has on the victim is what is of importance.
However, I agree there is a difference between an adult consensually fornicating with another adult and, say something like rape. Also, something like just a compliment about physique or appearance that cause discomfort to the recipient but the offender had no intention whatsoever to offend. Especially if it is the first and only incident that's reported. As more are reported, the situation changes and has to be re-examined.
We also have a duty to help the victims get to the point where they can forgive. We can't command them or force them. Even if there is forgiveness, a convicted perpetrator still has to serve the penalty. If the perpetrator is allowed to continue to attend the fellowship, we will see more and more testimonies of victims feeling violated and traumatized all over again each time they see or hear the perpetrator, or even just the prospect of potentially seeing him again. If removing the perpetrator is going to help the victim, by all means. 1 Corinthians 5:5 says it helps the perpetrator also.
As I said, the very serious ones are obvious (yet, sadly they have been handled the wrong way over and over again!). The test is going to be in the borderline cases, and we can just pray to God to guide and lead us in His Righteousness as we believe He is both just and fair.
And look, if a mistake was made (and it's very likely to happen), it can be reviewed especially if new or more information comes to light.
Please do take into account I was writing this while traveling. But this is a very valid matter with much depth, and deserves way more attention and justice than what I have given it now.
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 3, 2023 16:20:16 GMT -5
Jonathan How is it that you have time to make long posts while travelling but no time to answer a few questions put to you on other threads? Do you feel you are not accountable and can't be asked about posts you make? While expecting it from your fellow workers that you post about!
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Post by mrdobalina on Jul 3, 2023 16:46:35 GMT -5
Jonathan How is it that you have time to make long posts while travelling but no time to answer a few questions put to you on other threads? Do you feel you are not accountable and can't be asked about posts you make? While expecting it from your fellow workers that you post about! Probably because you aren't as important to him as you are to yourself. Google narcissism.
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 3, 2023 18:00:21 GMT -5
Jonathan How is it that you have time to make long posts while travelling but no time to answer a few questions put to you on other threads? Do you feel you are not accountable and can't be asked about posts you make? While expecting it from your fellow workers that you post about! Probably because you aren't as important to him as you are to yourself. Google narcissism. Thanks! Will google and see if narcissism is asking someone why he wants others to be accountable and answers questions while not doing it himself.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2023 1:41:41 GMT -5
The Ministry Safe program states that sexual harrassement is serious, as is grooming. Both offences happens to a person without their consent, and is unacceptable. Grooming is serious because it is the small, "innocent" beginning stages of gaining confidence and trust by using a position 9f authority or power. If professing persons reads the Bible seriously and thoroughly, they will catch on that no harrassement of any sort is appropriate fur a Christian who reads, believes and follows the Bible. If convicted a court of law will sentence according to the gravity 9f the offence. But the fellowship will safer and healthier if all kinds or measures of abuse can be dealt with so abuse can be to the minimum as it is still likely there will still be some. Hopefully much less than what has been the case up till now. Interestingly, some states have had these awareness programs, and still there were overseers who continued with their abuse. We can also say they still had the Bible, before, during after they committed their offences and it only came to light after DB. 🤷 The little catch with impropriety in high places is that they have no superior to hold them accountable. It's a democratic ideology that the people (however organized) hold such people to account.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2023 1:44:11 GMT -5
Jonathan How is it that you have time to make long posts while travelling but no time to answer a few questions put to you on other threads? Do you feel you are not accountable and can't be asked about posts you make? While expecting it from your fellow workers that you post about! He young enough that he learned how to type in school.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2023 1:45:47 GMT -5
Probably because you aren't as important to him as you are to yourself. Google narcissism. Thanks! Will google and see if narcissism is asking someone why he wants others to be accountable and answers questions while not doing it himself. I expect you will find that that is one of the noticeable symptoms of narcissism.
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Post by snow on Jul 4, 2023 22:52:39 GMT -5
Thanks! Will google and see if narcissism is asking someone why he wants others to be accountable and answers questions while not doing it himself. I expect you will find that that is one of the noticeable symptoms of narcissism. Lately more and more workers are coming across as narcissists. It is frankly quite eye opening. Has this group always been this bad or is it more in the last 40 years or so?
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Post by themaninthemirror on Jul 5, 2023 1:08:55 GMT -5
I expect you will find that that is one of the noticeable symptoms of narcissism. Lately more and more workers are coming across as narcissists. It is frankly quite eye opening. Has this group always been this bad or is it more in the last 40 years or so? Try and stick to the topic rather than attacking people, with the objective of silencing then.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 5, 2023 1:34:02 GMT -5
I expect you will find that that is one of the noticeable symptoms of narcissism. Lately more and more workers are coming across as narcissists. It is frankly quite eye opening. Has this group always been this bad or is it more in the last 40 years or so? I think it's only in the past few years that most people have become aware of what narcissism is. Now that most of us have become thoroughly versed in how narcissists operate, we discover that it's more common that we ever thought. "Lord, it's hard to be humble."
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 17:40:58 GMT -5
Lately more and more workers are coming across as narcissists. It is frankly quite eye opening. Has this group always been this bad or is it more in the last 40 years or so? Try and stick to the topic rather than attacking people, with the objective of silencing then. That was not an attack. It was a serious question. The church is not the one I remember from 50 years ago. When did all this start? The recent letters and the town hall where RH acted like a outright narcissist is a huge eye opener. How long has this been going on? It's a genuine question.
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