|
Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2023 19:31:24 GMT -5
THIS IS EXACTLY WHY YOU DON’T GO TO THE WORKERS NOT EVEN IF YOU ARE A WORKER WOW WHOA ……………. Wings for Truth Adult-Adult Abuse Apr 16 WINGS has always been focused on support and guidance on every aspect of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) and to support victims of CSA. We have been aware of adult-adult abuse but have not posted details of those cases. However we have decided to post the letter below, even though it is out of scope, as it illustrates the victim blaming and abuser shifting that has occurred in CSA cases. The letter is being shared with permission given from the authors, Bob and Stacy Bainbridge, who own convention grounds in New Brunswick. The letter is in regards to their daughter, Morgan, who was in the work. Dear Friends, It is with Morgan's permission that we send this email. The absence of information and lack of acknowledgment of recent abuses and how it's been or being handled has put and continues to put innocent people in harms way. So this is the reason for our letter. We would like to make clear the reason that Morgan is out of the work and in NZ. In March of 2021 Morgan brought information forward to the overseer about emotional/psychological/narcissistic abuse and sexual misconduct by two of her older companions. After hearing her experience he agreed that this behavior was abuse. When Morgan then informed him who the abusers were, he changed the subject. In the following weeks and months he made efforts to slander, discredit, undermine and portray her as a liar to cover up and dismiss the abuse. With the support and similar stories from others the overseer was forced to acknowledge the abuse yet again, the acknowledgement however, was short lived. With the continued support from staff other overseers were brought in from the USA. Many hours were spent in visits with the staff during their time here. It was at this time that one of these overseers suggested to Morgan that if she was just inventing trouble as an excuse to leave the work there was no need she could just leave. During Nov. 2021 Special meetings (on line) the staff workers along with visitors were together in NS. At this time a visiting worker inappropriately touched Morgan on two separate occasions. Morgan realized at this point the behaviors of abuse were far greater and more wide spread then she could have imagined. The eventual solution for all of this abuse was to move the abusers, one to Ontario, one temporarily to the USA and our overseer to Alberta. Morgan's only request at the time of reporting was for the abusers to step aside from the work and get the appropriate help/therapy needed. Instead we have made a safe haven for continued abuse. Some overseers in parts of Canada and the USA have sent letters to the elders in their fields to be read to their meetings, but many places still have have not. These things we all know are unpleasant and awkward to talk about but we cannot ignore the hurt and damage being done to the innocent. Going forward we need to know that these abusers are not just being shuffled to a different state or province to continue their abuse. These people need to be reported to the proper legal authorities. Think about the many, many, victims that have had their lives damaged and are spending months and years in therapy from the harm these abusers have caused. The lack of acknowledgement, action and dismissiveness exacerbates the feelings for the victims of abuse. These scars are with them forever, and the hurt goes far beyond the victims, it affects all of their family and friend. Please encourage our overseers that have influence in directing our workers to take the right course of action, be transparent in dealing with these abusers, report abuse. Victims need to be able to speak up and be taken seriously. Ps: In case you wonder or are hopeful that things are maybe moving in the right direction as far as recognition of harm done and the need for change and action, Within the last two weeks, Bob had a conversation with an overseer who dismissed Morgan's examples of abuse as "silly little things". He also in this conversation was victim blaming. However it is encouraging to read a letter written by Darryl Doland who has acknowledged the part that he has played in being complicit in trivializing, silencing and censoring these reports of abuses. We can only pray that these sentiments are contagious. Please feel free to share as we don't have everyone's contact details. Bob and Stacy
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2023 20:01:42 GMT -5
We (TMB admin team) are aware that this experience involving the young sister worker Morgen is far from unique.
We know of instances where other junior sister workers have been subject to abuses of power by senior companions, some of which constitute illegal behavior (e.g. workplace bullying and worse).
We know of other alleged sexual abuse (adult to adult) between young sister workers and both male and female older workers.
We know of reputations of some male workers, alleged to have sexually abused female staff while visiting from other fields.
We know that some alleged perpetrators have been moved between countries, including South America (very alarming for those of us with a heart for the gospel being preached with power in some of the more far-flung countries).
We know of blame-shifting over a very long period, onto those honest souls who have attempted to speak up for righteousness and for godly character and behavior in those purporting to be servants of God.
Surely this needs to stop, and not just stop, but to be completely wiped clean. Now!
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2023 20:13:17 GMT -5
'The eventual solution for all of this abuse was to move the abusers, one to Ontario, one temporarily to the USA and our overseer to Alberta.'
Who are these guys who have been shuffled around?
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 18, 2023 4:00:55 GMT -5
Basically the manner in which the ministry operates and has deep rooted sycophantry control amongst the laity, demands that the ministry is seen as perfect in order for it to stand. In reality the ministry is highly vulnerable without this. The image must be maintained, otherwise suitcases will have to be swapped for permanent homes and jobs in the real world. In order to protect the image about themselves, victim shunning and blaming is a necessary tool. Complaints of abuse have to be trivialised and excuses sought. I'm afraid the workings of the ministry is a sickness in itself, provoking a kind of mental false illusion. For the ministry to have a real chance of continuing as it is, it MUST BE PERFECT in all its ways, not just believed to be. Since this perfection is pie in the sky, serious changes must occur, abandoning the misplaced trust which has provided opportunities and temptations for criminal, immoral and other inappropriate behaviour since Irvine launched his experiment.
It is a real shame that the majority of good, sincere workers have to be subject to these changes, but the minority of 'weak' workers and not so much the minority that we would have liked, enforce the consequences on their more self controlled companions. The workers cannot police themselves in the current set up. That is a well attested fact. Positional abuse in order to cover up wrongdoings has been rampant. It must stop forthwith.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 18, 2023 9:59:57 GMT -5
I will post just the first page of a 15 page document and leave it at that
Meeting with friends and workers Kelowna, BC April 6 2023, 7:00pm-11:30pm Minutes In attendance (29 people): 1 - Overseer 4 - Sister workers 2 - Brother workers 7 - Couples 7 - Men members 1 - Sister member Shaun started the meeting with a heartfelt apology to the workers that if our letter came across too harsh, we were only coming from a place of love. We are coming from a place of wanting to figure out productive solutions as to how to move forward and start rebuilding trust that has been broken and bridge the divide that is apparent. We are trying to come together to talk and acknowledge that we need to move forward with what has gone on in the past. This is not an inquisition; there is nothing good that comes from bringing up past sin and gossiping. We want to get past the main communication method of gossip, and we want to establish proper communication protocols. We want to work through this and become stronger together. Merlin shared Matthew 18 - Discord / Jesus put a little child in the midst, we can be productive and leave here more unified. Fellowship - Jesus is the center to refocus his people, he is the only focus. Example: Brad, Dathan, in that far corner, and Rodney, Ernie in the opposite far corner, but if it distances you from the simplicity of Jesus, if the men move towards Jesus, then they also move towards each other, and the focus would be on Jesus, and on the little child. When there is an issue (Sexual, Ministry) it's guaranteed to divide God's people and you will have good people on both sides, feeling very strongly about the issues, even as workers and friends, if you can remember that, focus on Jesus together. Merlin shared back in Nehemiah's day how things in Jerusalem and in the kingdom were in shambles. He looks and weeps, grieves, and prays; the enemy is great reproach but Nehemiah inspires the people, rebuilding one stone at a time. Let's see if we can rebuild it. It won't happen easily; in our situation, we are pretty smashed down, but where can we start? Nehemiah prayed, "me and my people, we have sin" (including himself - we have to include ourselves. When the kingdom suffers loss, do we pray for those individuals? We can intercede). They rebuilt, stone by stone, and it was amazing what they could do. They had each other's backs - our situation is pretty similar. Their greatest threat was fighting with each other. If we can work together, like a project, we know the trust is smashed, those walls are protecting what's precious inside. We want to protect the children, let's get those walls strong and high and better than they have been. Shaun stated there's two separate sections of the meeting with the first two to three issues dealing with child and adult sexual assault and ministry issues and how were going to deal with them. The last topics are based on broader issues that are dividing the ministry and friends. Child & Adult Sexual Assault: Current policies and protocol implementation. • Shaun shared that the Dean Bruer situation was a catalyst for discussion on this topic but we were
• • in the dark. Didn't know about a previous letter from 2021 sent out about Walter & Aaron Because we didn't know what was going on had to take blanket policy of not trusting anyone for protection of their children 1. Clarify Walter Burkinshaw Status: settled. a. Merlin stated it is really unfortunate that his name is kind of dragged up again because it was
SO PLEASE NOTE !!!!!!!! There are no professional’s invited , such as lawyers , police , doctors , sex trauma workers , psychologists and on and on . NOT A SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS SUFFERED CSA/SA OR ANY OTHER KIND OF ABUSE ! I am sickened by their behavior . If you want to have a chat xx (Someone pay my bail please) OVERSEER ALBERTA just let me know , but I will arrive with professionals . You were a creep as a young man and you are still disgusting . I would be in a room you would come I would leave . That continued for the entire evening , level 1 stalking . Then you had the nerve to ask other girls why I didn’t want to even speak to you . You were told to be patient . Sorry no luck buddy . At that time I had already endured a lot a CSA & SA and you had those evil vibes , so I had finally started to push back with everything I had . I was done , so consider yourself lucky. Because by that time I was punching , scratching faces ,broke two noses , spit on you , kick you in the face . Booted you in the head , bite you , bolting from vehicles and one night I walked home in the dark . It took me three hours . The words issued to me were to put out or get out . I got out and never looked back . I feel bugs crawling on me as I write this . Thank goodness I was a a athlete in just about all sports so I could get away most of the time . I saw these people every so often . Including the bars , when I turned 18 . I would walk right up to your table and say hi , are you holding meetings in the bar now ? Once again YOU WERE A FULL ASS GROWN MAN So let me remind you I was 13 . I have the name of the overseer whom was sent to Alberta . I am not able to speak his name YET He doesn’t belong in the work , or Alberta or any place on this planet . I have handed it off to appropriate authorities . If you wish to read a bunch of bs , I will post all 15 pages . However I know it is in the right hands NOW ! Pack your bag , that is your only choice because I will out you . Should you choose to stick around , after this good luck 🍀 I am done with the lies . After receiving the letter from Morgan’s family I am livid . Dirty deeds done dirt cheap (ACDC)instead it should read dirty deeds done on sheep ! ENOUGH ENOUGH ENOUGH ALREADY …. Oh poor Merlin and his whining , you have your own deeds . There is still a radar on a overseer in Alberta/BC area . You know WHO YOU ARE ! Any worker’s on here ? Pass it on .
Like really totally ignorant ! This statement goads me………
WTF . Shaun started the meeting with a heartfelt apology to the workers that if our letter came across too harsh, we were only coming from a place of love. We are coming from a place of wanting to figure out productive solutions as to how to move forward and start rebuilding trust that has been shattered . A APOLOGY TO THE WORKERS !!! Pull your head outta your-ss !
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 18, 2023 11:02:17 GMT -5
THIS IS JUST ONE OF THE MANY POSTS ABOUT THAT MEETING
As I read this I was astounded at the level of ignorance. They have isolated themselves so much that even simple thought processes are gone and the concept of reality has disappeared. Such a sad group of people. They will hopefully never earn trust from anyone again .
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 18, 2023 15:29:45 GMT -5
Anonymous In light of the notes that came out yesterday from a meeting with the workers in BC, I have decided I should share notes I made about my meeting with the workers in my field last week in regard to CSA and what needs to be addressed.
Thankfully, it stayed very focused and the brother workers were very respectful, listened and asked questions, and truly seemed to be trying to do better. We did not discuss the weightier matters of the law like pool tables, Christmas trees, and washing the car on Sundays. 😂
The original point of typing up my notes was to share them with other people who were concerned and wanted to know how the meeting went. Also, my hope is that by sharing my experience it will give others courage to speak up in their area and my notes might possibly be useful in helping them formulate their thoughts on what they want to address.
To be clear, there are likely things I should have said, things that I wish I had said, etc but I tried. I’m happy to hear any feedback if you think anything I said was off track. Since this was a meeting with the workers and I was wanting to spur them to make positive change, I tried to approach them respectfully from a biblical perspective and not put them on the defensive.
For context, I am a middle aged single female and I was meeting with 2 brother workers. So this was a bit out of the norm but I didn’t want to have to limit my discussion to what someone else might be comfortable with if I took another friend. When I told them I wanted to meet with them privately to discuss this, they suggested that we meet somewhere somewhat public like a restaurant or coffee shop.
This meeting took place before Darryl’s letter came out on Friday. The brothers have taken a pretty firm stand in gospel meetings that this isn’t acceptable and that abuse should be reported to the authorities.
My purpose in meeting with them was to discuss what needs to be done moving forward and I also hoped by sharing my own experience with CSA as well guiding them to additional resources about SA and CSA that it might make some difference in their understanding of the problem.
When I originally typed up my notes, I was mainly outlining my thoughts and I didn’t put in too much of what the brothers said but I don’t actually think that they actually stated any disagreement with anything I said and most of their comments were for clarification and questions. We did discuss a couple existing situations and they explained the action plan to deal with those situations and I will be following up with them on that.
The only negative feedback I got I suppose was that they felt that other women were the main ones that judged women for how they dressed and how strict they were and I felt like that was absolutely not the case. So I assured them there is a tremendous amount of judgment all around and the male patriarchal thinking is very much alive and well.
So points of discussion:
There should be zero tolerance for any sexual abuse in the ministry. None. The Bible makes it clear that sexual immorality is not ok period. And sexual immorality outside of a consensual relationship is even worse than consensual fornication or adultery. (Later in the conversation, they actually talked more openly about this and asked what my thoughts were on a worker potentially having a consensual relationship with some one and then repenting. Should they be allowed to stay in the work if they have admitted their error and are committed to not repeating that behavior? I said I could see possible situations when that might be appropriate but emphasize the need to fully understand if such an affair was consensual based on the fact that workers are often seen as authority figures and there is a hierarchy among workers. So while a relationship may seem consensual, if it’s between say an overseer and a much younger sister worker, there’s an abuse of power that is not ok and it’s questionable to call it consensual.)
Sending a worker with known predatory tendencies to a persons home without disclosing it, is complicit and a grave and a horrific betrayal of trust to the friends particularly if there are children in the home. It also brings defilement to a friends home. (Mentioned that there’s sometimes worker’s judging what friends allow in their homes but the workers have knowingly sent sexual predators into homes with children.)
All abuse should be reported to authorities and not be dealt with in house. However, workers will continue to have to talk with victims at times and communicate with their field about situations and it’s critical that the workers research or get training on trauma informed care so that they don’t unintentionally create more trauma for victims by how they communicate. (Brought up the letter from Brian and Wayne that very inappropriately indicated a rape victim had a “physical relationship” with Dean. Also mentioned that the letter about Mark, stated that “many people might not think this is serious….” which was extremely minimizing when the intent was supposed to be making the point it was serious.)
Mentioned typical trauma responses and Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE’s). Many victims may be struggling with mental health issues or substance abuse issues but that is not a reason to invalidate what they are saying. In fact, their struggles are actually an indication the things they are alleging are more likely to have happened. Their “issues” are literally a side effect of their abuse.
Furthermore, having these unresolved issues will often create issues in victims marriages or result in people getting married to escape an unsafe home. Child sexual abuse creates more dysfunction and perpetuates generational trauma.
Why would the the overseers in the email about Mark think “many people” in the meetings wouldn’t think it was serious?? If there’s a perception that many people don’t think sexual touching of children through clothing is that serious, then the workers should be preaching about it more because clearly the congregation is misguided. Not only is it clearly a sin, it’s also illegal.
Furthermore, it is absolutely evil if a congregation that takes the name of Jesus doesn’t think child sex abuse needs to be dealt with!!!
Predators who prey on adults should not be allowed in meetings without very serious safe guards in place and every person present should be notified ahead of time that they are a predator and be asked if they are ok with meeting with them.
Pedophiles should most likely never be allowed back to meetings with children regardless of safety measures. Just no.
It is very minimizing and down right wrong to say things like, “sin is sin” or “we’ve all sinned and come short of the glory of god” in discussions about CSA. Jesus said those that those who have offended little ones would be better off having a millstone tied around their neck and cast into the depths of the sea. He clearly took sins which victimized children as very serious. Also any sin that harms another is has earthly consequences and repercussions so even if god considered them similar in our own spiritual need for repentance, there are other things we need to take care of to “make things right with our brother”.
There should be no hierarchy when it comes to dealing with outright evil. There needs to be some structure and hierarchy to deal with basic administrative things but It’s not a matter of opinion that CSA is evil and no one should be limited in how they respond because they are in a lower position. “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17 Limiting the sister workers, younger brother workers, elders, or literally anyone’s ability to respond to CSA is immoral and causing them to sin. This is not an issue to just passed on higher up the chain and hope it’s dealt with. We all all have a moral obligation to address it and no one should be subject to judgement or punishment for speaking out on these issues. Again this is not a minor issue that is open to interpretation, this is pure evil.
The fact that this has repeatedly swept under the rug by overseers is an abject moral failing and completely undermines any moral authority those workers have. Furthermore, there is no biblical justification for the current overseer positions and it seems like in sending the disciples out in 2s it was a way of having accountability so it makes no sense to abandon that in the leadership. There should not just be one overseer with ultimate authority in an area.
Overall the fact that this has been allowed to continue is massively hypocritical and it is astonishing that anyone can attempt to justify this. It is literally like what Jesus preached agains about whitened sepulchers and washing the outside of the cup. There is absolutely no justification tolerating CSA on any level.
It makes me furious that so many younger people, particularly young woman have been lectured and even denied baptism over small matters of not fitting into rigid standards on appearances while known child molesters can literally continue in the work or be elders and continue to have communion. “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” Matthew 23:24
Basically, there are many questionable standards they have to do mainly with appearances that are primarily borne by the girls and women. These things have very minimal biblical basis and are extremely outdated but are burdensome to girls. They likely have no bearing on one’s salvation. Men in authority seem to heap these things on woman. “And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.” Luke 11:46
Beyond making women bear the brunt of looking different and being in subjection, girls and women are also frequently told they must be careful how they dress so they don’t tempt brothers to sin. This is absolute nonsense and incredibly stupid and infuriating. There is zero justification for anyone to ever sexual violate someone else and when a man crosses a boundary without consent that is 100% on him and him alone and is in no way the victim’s fault or the victim’s responsibility. Boys should be taught self control and ways to handle their own feelings and it is not any woman’s responsibility to try to make up for a man’s lack of self control. I could walk down the street naked and while it make me more vulnerable to being violated, it is still 100% the perpetrators lack of morality and self control at fault if they violate me. Never the fault of a victim who just existed no matter what they are wearing. (Surprisingly both brothers agreed that it is not a woman’s responsibility to “not tempt” a man and that a man is responsible for his own lack of self control.)
I told the workers how utterly disgusted and disappointed I was by this mess and that it definitely raises so many questions about the legitimacy of the leadership and the actual spiritual nature of the fellowship “But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!”Matthew 6:23 KJV
Sorry I know this a very long but hopefully someone finds it helpful.
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 18, 2023 15:42:37 GMT -5
Good points chineseW!
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 18, 2023 15:44:47 GMT -5
We have copy of the whole 15 pages if anybody's interested, thanks to 1chinesewhispers. Haven't digested them all myself, not sure it's worth the space to post it all...
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 18, 2023 15:54:23 GMT -5
Agreed ! It could be a trigger . I survived CSA/SA and it was a hard read ! The stuff of nightmares !
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Apr 18, 2023 16:25:27 GMT -5
We have copy of the whole 15 pages if anybody's interested, thanks to 1chinesewhispers. Haven't digested them all myself, not sure it's worth the space to post it all... Yep. I would like to see the whole 15 pages, partly due to my 2X2 roots, and the fact that Kelowna is my hometown. And I suspect that I speak on behalf of at least some of the 1600+ guests who appear on these boards every day, who may not be comfortable speaking up for themselves. Let's see it all. Every bit.
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on Apr 18, 2023 16:29:59 GMT -5
1chinesewhispers, amazing notes from Anonymous. Kudos to her for her clarity and willingness to speak up. She said a lot of things that needed to be said, mind-boggling as it is.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 18, 2023 16:54:42 GMT -5
Sent in message thread !
|
|
jane
Junior Member
Posts: 89
|
Post by jane on Apr 18, 2023 18:36:20 GMT -5
I would be very much interested in reading the 15 pages. I have had many of the same thoughts as the writer. I am talking to our workers soon and it would be helpful to be prepared and organized in my thoughts/questions.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 18, 2023 18:49:49 GMT -5
It is online on the thread about Dean !
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 18, 2023 21:48:46 GMT -5
Here is a beautiful poem by Rashani Rea
The Unbroken
There is a brokenness
out of which comes the unbroken,
a shatteredness
out of which blooms the unshatterable.
There is a sorrow
beyond all grief which leads to joy
and a fragility
out of whose depths emerges strength.
There is a hollow space
too vast for words
through which we pass with each loss,
out of whose darkness
we are sanctioned into being.
There is a cry deeper than all sound
whose serrated edges cut the heart
as we break open to the place inside
which is unbreakable and whole,
while learning to sing.
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 18, 2023 22:02:46 GMT -5
Chinesewhispers wrote: It makes me furious that so many younger people, particularly young woman have been lectured and even denied baptism over small matters of not fitting into rigid standards on appearances while known child molesters can literally continue in the work or be elders and continue to have communion. “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” Matthew 23:24
Basically, there are many questionable standards they have to do mainly with appearances that are primarily borne by the girls and women. These things have very minimal biblical basis and are extremely outdated but are burdensome to girls. They likely have no bearing on one’s salvation. Men in authority seem to heap these things on woman. “And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.” Luke 11:46
Beyond making women bear the brunt of looking different and being in subjection, girls and women are also frequently told they must be careful how they dress so they don’t tempt brothers to sin. This is absolute nonsense and incredibly stupid and infuriating. There is zero justification for anyone to ever sexual violate someone else and when a man crosses a boundary without consent that is 100% on him and him alone and is in no way the victim’s fault or the victim’s responsibility. Boys should be taught self control and ways to handle their own feelings and it is not any woman’s responsibility to try to make up for a man’s lack of self control. I could walk down the street naked and while it make me more vulnerable to being violated, it is still 100% the perpetrators lack of morality and self control at fault if they violate me. Never the fault of a victim who just existed no matter what they are wearing. (Surprisingly both brothers agreed that it is not a woman’s responsibility to “not tempt” a man and that a man is responsible for his own lack of self control.)
I am glad you felt free to talk about this with the workers. And I agree. Too much emphasis has always been placed on the women's outward appearance. For many professing women the inside matches the outside and they have a deep and abiding conviction from God to dress the way they do. But, for so many others, it's just the way they were brought up and what has allways been expected to show "signs" they are really professing. While I agree the patriarchal influence may have started all that, I will point out that the women have allowed it. And, as a woman, there is a lot of peer pressure from other women to be like them. The men stare, but the women glare. That's just been my experience from some. (not all men stare, not all women glare). But, if you looked too "worldly", you were treated like a heathen basically. I think part of the women glaring is maybe they secretly wish they could do what you are doing. Nothing is really stopping them I suppose. But, I have known of a few men who have pretty strict expectations from the women in their lives. My dad didn't care one bit if we "looked the part". He more encouraged us to just be fit, healthy, active and eat well. My mom, on the other hand was a different story. Her concept of us doing well spiritually hinged on how much we looked like the sister workers. That is simply misplaced faith, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 19, 2023 1:54:51 GMT -5
Chinesewhispers wrote: It makes me furious that so many younger people, particularly young woman have been lectured and even denied baptism over small matters of not fitting into rigid standards on appearances while known child molesters can literally continue in the work or be elders and continue to have communion. “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” Matthew 23:24 Basically, there are many questionable standards they have to do mainly with appearances that are primarily borne by the girls and women. These things have very minimal biblical basis and are extremely outdated but are burdensome to girls. They likely have no bearing on one’s salvation. Men in authority seem to heap these things on woman. “And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.” Luke 11:46 Beyond making women bear the brunt of looking different and being in subjection, girls and women are also frequently told they must be careful how they dress so they don’t tempt brothers to sin. This is absolute nonsense and incredibly stupid and infuriating. There is zero justification for anyone to ever sexual violate someone else and when a man crosses a boundary without consent that is 100% on him and him alone and is in no way the victim’s fault or the victim’s responsibility. Boys should be taught self control and ways to handle their own feelings and it is not any woman’s responsibility to try to make up for a man’s lack of self control. I could walk down the street naked and while it make me more vulnerable to being violated, it is still 100% the perpetrators lack of morality and self control at fault if they violate me. Never the fault of a victim who just existed no matter what they are wearing. (Surprisingly both brothers agreed that it is not a woman’s responsibility to “not tempt” a man and that a man is responsible for his own lack of self control.)I am glad you felt free to talk about this with the workers. And I agree. Too much emphasis has always been placed on the women's outward appearance. For many professing women the inside matches the outside and they have a deep and abiding conviction from God to dress the way they do. But, for so many others, it's just the way they were brought up and what has allways been expected to show "signs" they are really professing. While I agree the patriarchal influence may have started all that, I will point out that the women have allowed it. And, as a woman, there is a lot of peer pressure from other women to be like them. The men stare, but the women glare. That's just been my experience from some. (not all men stare, not all women glare). But, if you looked too "worldly", you were treated like a heathen basically. I think part of the women glaring is maybe they secretly wish they could do what you are doing. Nothing is really stopping them I suppose. But, I have known of a few men who have pretty strict expectations from the women in their lives. My dad didn't care one bit if we "looked the part". He more encouraged us to just be fit, healthy, active and eat well. My mom, on the other hand was a different story. Her concept of us doing well spiritually hinged on how much we looked like the sister workers. That is simply misplaced faith, IMO. I'm having difficulty sorting which is by Chinese whispers and which she is quoting from others. I haven't read where she talked to the workers about these things but posted what others have written about their experience with an occasional comment of her own at the bottom.
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on Apr 19, 2023 3:07:26 GMT -5
So I'm not the only one! I think most of the recent longer posts are what others have written, but I could be wrong
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 19, 2023 3:20:41 GMT -5
So I'm not the only one! I think most of the recent longer posts are what others have written, but I could be wrong I think you are correct, that's how i see it anyway. It would be better if just the links to the emails were given rather than the whole emails posted. Most have been copied from WINGS.
|
|
|
Post by learner on Apr 19, 2023 4:08:42 GMT -5
So I'm not the only one! I think most of the recent longer posts are what others have written, but I could be wrong I think that 1ChineseWhispers additions are super confusing. The issue is too important to have it unclear who is saying what.
|
|
|
Post by verna on Apr 19, 2023 11:23:25 GMT -5
So I'm not the only one! I think most of the recent longer posts are what others have written, but I could be wrong I think that 1ChineseWhispers additions are super confusing. The issue is too important to have it unclear who is saying what. If you ask about particular posts some of us would be happy (perhaps I am speaking for myself) to clarify where we are able.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 19, 2023 11:24:35 GMT -5
Thx Verna , you know exactly what I am trying to say ! I will try to do better in the future . But there are a couple of people that have sorted out my postings fortunately 🙃 So what I posted yesterday was 15 pages from a group that were to be addressing CSA/SA . That quickly derailed . The other was a story about a person whom wanted it shared . I share what I can ONLY ! If I wanted to see this board explode I could repeat some things I am aware of that maybe 1 person shared . You would be gutted , totally gutted . Even though I have lived A VERY DIFFERENT LIFE , I still won’t repeat what I am told . It sickens 🤒 😷 🤢 and that’s a pretty high fence for me . I won’t jump it . OMG I THINK I SHOULD ATTEND CONVENTION THIS YEAR 😜🤪
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 19, 2023 13:15:47 GMT -5
Chinesewhispers wrote: It makes me furious that so many younger people, particularly young woman have been lectured and even denied baptism over small matters of not fitting into rigid standards on appearances while known child molesters can literally continue in the work or be elders and continue to have communion. “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” Matthew 23:24 Basically, there are many questionable standards they have to do mainly with appearances that are primarily borne by the girls and women. These things have very minimal biblical basis and are extremely outdated but are burdensome to girls. They likely have no bearing on one’s salvation. Men in authority seem to heap these things on woman. “And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.” Luke 11:46 Beyond making women bear the brunt of looking different and being in subjection, girls and women are also frequently told they must be careful how they dress so they don’t tempt brothers to sin. This is absolute nonsense and incredibly stupid and infuriating. There is zero justification for anyone to ever sexual violate someone else and when a man crosses a boundary without consent that is 100% on him and him alone and is in no way the victim’s fault or the victim’s responsibility. Boys should be taught self control and ways to handle their own feelings and it is not any woman’s responsibility to try to make up for a man’s lack of self control. I could walk down the street naked and while it make me more vulnerable to being violated, it is still 100% the perpetrators lack of morality and self control at fault if they violate me. Never the fault of a victim who just existed no matter what they are wearing. (Surprisingly both brothers agreed that it is not a woman’s responsibility to “not tempt” a man and that a man is responsible for his own lack of self control.)I am glad you felt free to talk about this with the workers. And I agree. Too much emphasis has always been placed on the women's outward appearance. For many professing women the inside matches the outside and they have a deep and abiding conviction from God to dress the way they do. But, for so many others, it's just the way they were brought up and what has allways been expected to show "signs" they are really professing. While I agree the patriarchal influence may have started all that, I will point out that the women have allowed it. And, as a woman, there is a lot of peer pressure from other women to be like them. The men stare, but the women glare. That's just been my experience from some. (not all men stare, not all women glare). But, if you looked too "worldly", you were treated like a heathen basically. I think part of the women glaring is maybe they secretly wish they could do what you are doing. Nothing is really stopping them I suppose. But, I have known of a few men who have pretty strict expectations from the women in their lives. My dad didn't care one bit if we "looked the part". He more encouraged us to just be fit, healthy, active and eat well. My mom, on the other hand was a different story. Her concept of us doing well spiritually hinged on how much we looked like the sister workers. That is simply misplaced faith, IMO. I'm having difficulty sorting which is by Chinese whispers and which she is quoting from others. I haven't read where she talked to the workers about these things but posted what others have written about their experience with an occasional comment of her own at the bottom. Well whomever wrote it did a good job and thx ChineseW for sharing it.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 19, 2023 14:47:21 GMT -5
It totally makes me grateful for my parents . Never did my parents make me wear dresses . Except for Sunday’s and Wednesday and convention and special meetings . It was a fight , a really huge effort to get me in a dress . First the neck was tight and scratchy , frills and lace , not appropriate for a ADHD child . I wanted to be able to make that swing wrap around the top , can’t do that in an a dress . Played every sport including football . Not skirt friendly . Not as easy to get raped or SA . My offending worker might have appreciated it obviously . However I reached my rope with him and punched him in the face . When my parents found out , it explained my behavior . 40 years later professing people are saying WE THOUGHT YOU WERE BEING ABUSED!!! My reply WHY DID’T you ask me . Because of the fear some worker’s put the friends through . It is absolutely a CULT !!!! Even my mom wore shorts and pants when hot or working in the yard and on our holidays . My mom was so glad that they were able to adopt a girl . My mom dressed beautifully and wanted to pass that on . Well she got a tomboy but my bro filled in for me 🙃 . So grateful my dad ran the home not the worker’s . I have said my father dispatched workers from his home when needed . Told they were never to return . I am forever indebted to my father who prepared me for handling it when things got tough . He knew I would stand and follow his requests in later life . Before he passed he said , please always be there for your mom when I pass and buy her flowers every week which I did . Until her best friend asked if she could do so . Without the fortitude from my father , I would not be on this earth
Mom in her final years had many things the worker’s were doing was not right . She had professed for about 78 years . I have spoken with my Auntie (moms BFF) about this nightmare and they are on the fence and they are not fearful to leave . Nuf for now ! ps , I think the staff prefer to sedate me lol . I love my nurses !
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 19, 2023 18:07:19 GMT -5
It totally makes me grateful for my parents . Never did my parents make me wear dresses . Except for Sunday’s and Wednesday and convention and special meetings . It was a fight , a really huge effort to get me in a dress . First the neck was tight and scratchy , frills and lace , not appropriate for a ADHD child . I wanted to be able to make that swing wrap around the top , can’t do that in an a dress . Played every sport including football . Not skirt friendly . Not as easy to get raped or SA . My offending worker might have appreciated it obviously . However I reached my rope with him and punched him in the face . When my parents found out , it explained my behavior . 40 years later professing people are saying WE THOUGHT YOU WERE BEING ABUSED!!! My reply WHY DID’T you ask me . Because of the fear some worker’s put the friends through . It is absolutely a CULT !!!! Even my mom wore shorts and pants when hot or working in the yard and on our holidays . My mom was so glad that they were able to adopt a girl . My mom dressed beautifully and wanted to pass that on . Well she got a tomboy but my bro filled in for me 🙃 . So grateful my dad ran the home not the worker’s . I have said my father dispatched workers from his home when needed . Told they were never to return . I am forever indebted to my father who prepared me for handling it when things got tough . He knew I would stand and follow his requests in later life . Before he passed he said , please always be there for your mom when I pass and buy her flowers every week which I did . Until her best friend asked if she could do so . Without the fortitude from my father , I would not be on this earth Mom in her final years had many things the worker’s were doing was not right . She had professed for about 78 years . I have spoken with my Auntie (moms BFF) about this nightmare and they are on the fence and they are not fearful to leave . Nuf for now ! ps , I think the staff prefer to sedate me lol . I love my nurses ! Off topic, but when you said your mom professed for 78 years, I just did the math on my mom and that was exactly how many years she professed when she passed away.
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 19, 2023 18:16:57 GMT -5
It totally makes me grateful for my parents . Never did my parents make me wear dresses . Except for Sunday’s and Wednesday and convention and special meetings . It was a fight , a really huge effort to get me in a dress . First the neck was tight and scratchy , frills and lace , not appropriate for a ADHD child . I wanted to be able to make that swing wrap around the top , can’t do that in an a dress . Played every sport including football . Not skirt friendly . Not as easy to get raped or SA . My offending worker might have appreciated it obviously . However I reached my rope with him and punched him in the face . When my parents found out , it explained my behavior . 40 years later professing people are saying WE THOUGHT YOU WERE BEING ABUSED!!! My reply WHY DID’T you ask me . Because of the fear some worker’s put the friends through . It is absolutely a CULT !!!! Even my mom wore shorts and pants when hot or working in the yard and on our holidays . My mom was so glad that they were able to adopt a girl . My mom dressed beautifully and wanted to pass that on . Well she got a tomboy but my bro filled in for me 🙃 . So grateful my dad ran the home not the worker’s . I have said my father dispatched workers from his home when needed . Told they were never to return . I am forever indebted to my father who prepared me for handling it when things got tough . He knew I would stand and follow his requests in later life . Before he passed he said , please always be there for your mom when I pass and buy her flowers every week which I did . Until her best friend asked if she could do so . Without the fortitude from my father , I would not be on this earth Mom in her final years had many things the worker’s were doing was not right . She had professed for about 78 years . I have spoken with my Auntie (moms BFF) about this nightmare and they are on the fence and they are not fearful to leave . Nuf for now ! ps , I think the staff prefer to sedate me lol . I love my nurses ! Aww. Chinese: I am glad you had good parents too! What a blessing. The parents will make ya or break ya for sure. When we are in our darkest days...maybe there is something they said to help get us through somehow. My dad was not "wordy" about how to handle unwanted sexual advances, but I do remember this: "No matter what, just don't let them get the best of you." (men) There is a lot that can be packed into that advice. I remember one time a visiting brother worker came to the house with his companion. And, you know the dogs were just being the dogs and barking and stuff like dogs do. Well, that brother worker started to kick at his dog. My dad wasn't afraid to basically tell that brother to just knock it off. I think he said something like, "You don't treat my dogs like that." I think they need more men like your dad and my dad who didn't put their faith in the workers, and weren't afraid to set boundaries. My dad also put an elder in his place who had boundary issues. My mom was more a pushover and naive. She meant well, she just had her blinders on.
|
|
peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
|
Post by peggysullivan on Apr 19, 2023 18:22:53 GMT -5
Chinese, since you mentioned having ADHD....MY son has it and has received treatment and therapy for it, including support group. He has learned a lot about it. I wish they knew more. But, he told me that now they think ADHD is slightly related to autism spectrum. And when you were describing the frilly dresses and stuff I just got a picture (giggles), but autistic kids don't like too much stimulation and some clothing items can drive them nuts. They are often highly intelligent too like ADHD people.
|
|