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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 7, 2007 23:49:04 GMT -5
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 7, 2007 23:49:52 GMT -5
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 7, 2007 23:50:20 GMT -5
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 7, 2007 23:52:47 GMT -5
I thank God for the law. It convicts me of sin and causes me to turn to Christ. Is this negative? Not to me. Thieves murders, drunkards, idolaters, evil-doers, false accusers, slandered, adulterers, deceivers and such like don't like the law and think it negative. Praise God for the law he gave in love to convict me of sin and help me feel my need of Him.Brad
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Post by Zorro on Aug 8, 2007 0:02:01 GMT -5
Brad, This is this piece you seem to be missing...
Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes".
Jesus fullfilled the OT Mosaic Law. Were this not true, we'd still be performing all the OT sacrifices and observing the feasts, we'd be giving 10% of everything we have to Levitical priests.....who we'd still go to for intercession to God. Scripture makes it very clear that if you want to live under the Law, you live under it ALL - if you fail in one point, you fail in it all. What we are asked to do now is believe and live under grace, fullfilling the great commandments to love God with our all and our neighbor as ourself.
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Post by wondering on Aug 8, 2007 6:19:25 GMT -5
So the fact that Jesus fulfilled the law means what?
a) no longer in effect and has no influence on our life.
b) no longer in effect but is a guiding light to morality.
c) no longer in effect but gives us an idea of what God expects us to live like.
d) other ideas
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 8, 2007 6:57:01 GMT -5
It is the Holy Spirit who convicts people of sin. I thank God for his Grace/unmerited favour. His love. Who he is.What he did.
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Post by Zorro on Aug 8, 2007 8:00:05 GMT -5
So the fact that Jesus fulfilled the law means what?
a) no longer in effect and has no influence on our life.
b) no longer in effect but is a guiding light to morality.
c) no longer in effect but gives us an idea of what God expects us to live like.
d) other ideas
Perhaps the major points would be that God's laws are now written on our hearts and not tables of stone; IE the Holy Spirit now dwells in our hearts. Now our high priest is in heaven and not in the Temple.
For any still struggling with the idea of Christ's fullfillment of the old covenant, here's a great study......
Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
The scripture Paul quoted here is from Jer 31.
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Post by jh62 on Aug 8, 2007 9:23:12 GMT -5
If the law has been written on our hearts, then it's not really "done away with", is it? More like we have it with us at all times. I'm not talking about all the "kosher" laws, or the covenant God made with the children of Israel, but the laws for all mankind.
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Post by Zorro on Aug 8, 2007 9:52:10 GMT -5
If the law has been written on our hearts, then it's not really "done away with", is it? More like we have it with us at all times. I'm not talking about all the "kosher" laws, or the covenant God made with the children of Israel, but the laws for all mankind. This is basically what I was alluding to in my first post.....the confusion caused by equating the 10 Commandments with the entirety of the Mosaic law (the Kosher laws, as you put it and how this is all related to the new covenant instituted by Christ. The Mosaic law is absolutely "done away with". Paul uses the term "obsolete". Why is it "obsolete"? Among other things, it couldn't remove sin. In the 7th verse he says For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. In another place he refers to the new covenant simply as "better". Why? Something many folks overlook is that, as a body of people, the Jewish people did NOT have the indwelling of God's Spirit (I know there were exceptions, I'm referring to the people generally). Instead, they had minute rules to guide every detail of their lives. This is how they served God. This is what was completely done away with. What it was replaced with is the indwelling of God's Spirit in his people, Christ himself taking the place of high priest. Put another way, in the past the old covenant taught people to know "about" God and how to serve Him, but the new covenant allowed people to truly "know" God personally and intimately. Is the old covenant "obsolete" and "done away with" - thankfully yes. Is the new covenant "better" - talk about understatement!!!
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Post by Zorro on Aug 8, 2007 11:06:07 GMT -5
If the law has been written on our hearts, then it's not really "done away with", is it? More like we have it with us at all times. I'm not talking about all the "kosher" laws, or the covenant God made with the children of Israel, but the laws for all mankind.
I'd like to address this one more time, perhaps from another angle. At the heart of what you're saying here, I think you're correct. I think the apprehension underlying this entire conversation is based on the fear (or misinterpretation) that the "fullfillment" the law, the "obsolesence" of the law, etc, leads to a void of law; IE lawlessness. In this sense, you are absolutely right in that now we have it with us at all times.....written on hearts. Perhaps if we can fully acknowledge this, we can accept that what Paul was trying to explain regarding the obsolesence of the Mosaic law is not be equated with advocating "lawlessness".
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 8, 2007 12:17:18 GMT -5
If the law has been written on our hearts, then it's not really "done away with", is it? More like we have it with us at all times. I'm not talking about all the "kosher" laws, or the covenant God made with the children of Israel, but the laws for all mankind. Well put!! This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. I agree that we all may mean different things as to what is actually included as part of "The Law". Perhaps if we said that many of the OT ordinances and observances were negative?? I certainly agree with that. And let's not forget that the law grew into a monster because people like the Pharisees made it so. But the basic mind and will of God (His Law as expressed in the 10 commandments) is not negative. Paul sums this up in Romans when he says that the 10 Commandments can be summed up in two new commandments the Jesus gave: 1. Love the Lord with all your heart. 2. Love they neighbor as theyself. Peace, HFA
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 8, 2007 13:15:55 GMT -5
It is the Holy Spirit who convicts people of sin. I thank God for his Grace/unmerited favour. His love. Who he is.What he did. Shushy, What is Holy Spirit basing the conviction upon? Anything concrete? Or does it change from person to person? Best, Edy
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 9, 2007 22:16:46 GMT -5
HUH? And let's not forget that the law grew into a monster because people like the Pharisees made it so. - Hope for allOh really? Has God made himself into a monster because satanists have made him so? Huh? huh? huh? Brad
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