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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 3, 2007 5:56:37 GMT -5
As we are by now aware, Brad has recently obtained Nathan's old Bible, which contained a number of personal notes. Brad has scanned these, and offers to send them on CD to anyone in the world who is interested in reading them. (Doubtless there will be a few people that will request this material.)
One of Nathan's notes which Brad has reproduced several times on this forum, is a simple statement: "The Law is negative". In Brad's estimation this is both inaccurate and a lie:
[Brad Wrote] Nathan things [sic] that many of his writings were accurate. Including that "the law is negative"[.] Nathan loves this lie and supports it.
Hence Brad maintains that it is a falsehood to speak of the negativity of the Old Testament Law, with its rituals, purity codes, as well as the Ten moral Commandments.
He then poses some questions:
[Brad Wrote] Do you disagree with Nathan. [sic] [?] Do you believe the law is holy and just as it says in Bible?
I agree wholeheartedly with Nathan. Even without reading his personal notes reproduced on this public forum, my thoughts on the issue of the Law would have been identical to Nathan's. I would have said without hestiation that the Old Testament Law was negative. In this, both Nathan and I agree with the Apostle Paul who wrote extensively about the nature of the Old Testament Law and is applicability to Christians:
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. (Romans 3:19)
It is unequivocally maintained by Paul that the Law is intended to remove any excuse, or self-justification before God, and to establish the basis upon which we shall be judged to be righteous or unrighteous in the sight of the Most Holy God. If there were no Law, judgement would be an impossibility, as it is written, "...so that... the whole world [be] held accountable to God". Judgement by God will not a pleasant experience, for we have all fallen short of the requirements of the Law. And though Christians can anticipate a verdict of "not guilty", yet our entire lives will be examined by the Lord. And none of us are perfect.
The Apostle further writes:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3:20)
Here the Apostle explains that the Law's function is to expose our sin, and to raise it to a conscious level. It's function is not to make us righteous - "no one will be declared righteous by observing the Law" - because although the Law is holy and good, man is sinful and cannot keep it.
The Law is therefore a source of terror and fear unto man. Whilst it shines a brilliant light on our sin and trespasses, exposing them and putting them on full tawdry display, yet it provides us no means of escape from our outlawry. It convicts, but cannot pardon. It accuses, but cannot acquit. It promises retribution, and by its nature, cannot offer reward, as it is written, "...law brings wrath" (Romans 4:15), and in another place, "The law was added so that the trespass might increase" (Romans 5:20).
It this not negative?
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. (Romans 7:4)
By our conversion to Christ, we died to the Law! The Law bound us to our sin, since it's purpose was to be the instrument of our conviction of need - "our schoolmaster leading us to Christ" - but now that Christ has appeared, and has died and been resurrected, we have been liberated from dead works, fruitless endevours and the power of sin. Now we can truly bear fruit to God as we never could when under the Law.
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. (Romans 7:5)
The Law enables us to bear only the fruits signifying everlasting death - that is simply a nice way of saying "sin". This is because the Law opposes our sinful nature. But when it tells us "Thou shalt not", our carnal mind and fallen nature immediately crave that which is forbidden, and so sinful passions are aroused and animated by the same Law which convicts, condemns and promises us retribution for the proscribed sins - "the wages of sin is death". We are therefore brought to a place of increased sin.
As it is written, "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead." Without the Law, therefore, sin is "dead"; it is absent, and does not exist, for sin is the contravention of the Law. ("The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law" (1 Corinthians 15:56)
What an invidious thing it is to be under the Law!
But praise to God! "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes". We need such a provision because, "...no one is justified before God by the law..." (Galations 3:11).
The number of verses could indeed be multiplied. It mightily recommended reading the passages of scripture (as I did when writing this post) regarding the Law. The message of the Gospel is of freedom from being "...prisoners of the Law...". No one denies that the Law is holy and just, but it is also negative in the sense that it condemns, creates sin, empowers sin, arouses our carnal minds and natures, and brings only death.
For man is sinful and cannot keep it.
Now returning to the original assertion made by our friend Brad in regards to Nathan's personal note in his Bible:
[Brad Wrote] Nathan things [sic] that many of his writings were accurate. Including that "the law is negative"[.] Nathan loves this lie and supports it.
Clearly Brad has no idea about that which he speaks. Let this be a lesson to all of us! When a man embraces solo scriptural (as Brad has) instead of sola scriptura, errors and misinterpretations will surely abound. For a man who shuts himself in a room with nothing more than the "good ol' Bible" and hopes, through his own power and authority, to understand all things therein without guidance of both the Church and the Holy Spirit, is doomed to never properly understand that which he reads.
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Post by wanttobewithGod2 on Aug 3, 2007 6:16:21 GMT -5
oops!...forgot to login this am! GIT, I apologize as I am not really addressing anything you have said here specifically (good post, btw..read most of it..sorry..tired. ) ANYWAY...just wanted to say that I have written a few things in my Bible over the years and underlined things,e tc...and I would not be ashamed of any of it. It was for me, personally, but it wouldn't bother me at all if someone read it. In the spirit of my new and improved attitude on here (may it please last!) I'm honestly not trying to nitpick...I just don't understand what the big deal is really... Have a great day everyone...I am off to bed for a few hours shortly... Mich
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2007 7:23:56 GMT -5
GIT, there are two accusations made against us here: a) you reject the Law b) you still live under the Law.
I wouldn't take such people too seriously, after all, they don't take themselves seriously.
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Post by nope on Aug 3, 2007 7:27:05 GMT -5
GIT, there are two accusations made against us here: a) you reject the Law b) you still live under the Law. I wouldn't take such people too seriously, after all, they don't take themselves seriously. Actually, we don't take you seriously.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 3, 2007 21:35:54 GMT -5
GIT and Nathan, Perhaps you've missed out that Abraham was justified by Faith. Didn't you know that everyone is saved by Faith in God and not by the law whether they were under the law or not? The law is awesome! I love the law. It is holy. It is given by God. Praise God for the righteous law. Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. GIT and Nathan, please post more of how you think the law is negative. It helps divide the ignorant from the knowledgeable and reveals more about your beliefs to others. God wants you either Hot or Cold. Brad
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 3, 2007 21:48:30 GMT -5
"A point"
Made this point earlier.
Nathan still doesn't like the law.
The commandments of God say that you are not to bear false witness against others.
Nathan has accused Brad of being a thief and of being mental.
Nathan has accused many of being mental.
Yet Nathan has no support for these statements.
He constantly bears false witness.
No matter what he says, what is written is written. And his actions show that he doesn't like the law.
I believe he doesn't like the law because it condemns him, therefore he says it is negative.
Nathan uses one lie after another to try to cover up.
Nathan, adding blood to blood will not clean your garment. You are covered in filth and blood and it shows that you hate your neighbors.
Let everyone beware of the man Nathan Barker who falsely accuses and lies to coverup.
-A point
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Post by Typical on Aug 3, 2007 23:23:48 GMT -5
As we are by now aware, Brad has recently obtained Nathan's old Bible, which contained a number of personal notes. Brad has scanned these, and offers to send them on CD to anyone in the world who is interested in reading them. (Doubtless there will be a few people that will request this material.) One of Nathan's notes which Brad has reproduced several times on this forum, is a simple statement: "The Law is negative". In Brad's estimation this is both inaccurate and a lie: [Brad Wrote] Nathan things [sic] that many of his writings were accurate. Including that "the law is negative"[.] Nathan loves this lie and supports it. Hence Brad maintains that it is a falsehood to speak of the negativity of the Old Testament Law, with its rituals, purity codes, as well as the Ten moral Commandments. He then poses some questions: [Brad Wrote] Do you disagree with Nathan. [sic] [?] Do you believe the law is holy and just as it says in Bible?I agree wholeheartedly with Nathan. Even without reading his personal notes reproduced on this public forum, my thoughts on the issue of the Law would have been identical to Nathan's. I would have said without hestiation that the Old Testament Law was negative. In this, both Nathan and I agree with the Apostle Paul who wrote extensively about the nature of the Old Testament Law and is applicability to Christians: Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. (Romans 3:19) It is unequivocally maintained by Paul that the Law is intended to remove any excuse, or self-justification before God, and to establish the basis upon which we shall be judged to be righteous or unrighteous in the sight of the Most Holy God. If there were no Law, judgement would be an impossibility, as it is written, " ...so that... the whole world [be] held accountable to God". Judgement by God will not a pleasant experience, for we have all fallen short of the requirements of the Law. And though Christians can anticipate a verdict of "not guilty", yet our entire lives will be examined by the Lord. And none of us are perfect. The Apostle further writes: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Romans 3:20) Here the Apostle explains that the Law's function is to expose our sin, and to raise it to a conscious level. It's function is not to make us righteous - " no one will be declared righteous by observing the Law" - because although the Law is holy and good, man is sinful and cannot keep it. The Law is therefore a source of terror and fear unto man. Whilst it shines a brilliant light on our sin and trespasses, exposing them and putting them on full tawdry display, yet it provides us no means of escape from our outlawry. It convicts, but cannot pardon. It accuses, but cannot acquit. It promises retribution, and by its nature, cannot offer reward, as it is written, " ...law brings wrath" (Romans 4:15), and in another place, " The law was added so that the trespass might increase" (Romans 5:20). It this not negative? So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. (Romans 7:4) By our conversion to Christ, we died to the Law! The Law bound us to our sin, since it's purpose was to be the instrument of our conviction of need - "our schoolmaster leading us to Christ" - but now that Christ has appeared, and has died and been resurrected, we have been liberated from dead works, fruitless endevours and the power of sin. Now we can truly bear fruit to God as we never could when under the Law. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. (Romans 7:5) The Law enables us to bear only the fruits signifying everlasting death - that is simply a nice way of saying "sin". This is because the Law opposes our sinful nature. But when it tells us " Thou shalt not", our carnal mind and fallen nature immediately crave that which is forbidden, and so sinful passions are aroused and animated by the same Law which convicts, condemns and promises us retribution for the proscribed sins - " the wages of sin is death". We are therefore brought to a place of increased sin. As it is written, " But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead." Without the Law, therefore, sin is "dead"; it is absent, and does not exist, for sin is the contravention of the Law. (" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law" (1 Corinthians 15:56) What an invidious thing it is to be under the Law! But praise to God! " Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes". We need such a provision because, "...no one is justified before God by the law..." (Galations 3:11). The number of verses could indeed be multiplied. It mightily recommended reading the passages of scripture (as I did when writing this post) regarding the Law. The message of the Gospel is of freedom from being " ...prisoners of the Law...". No one denies that the Law is holy and just, but it is also negative in the sense that it condemns, creates sin, empowers sin, arouses our carnal minds and natures, and brings only death. For man is sinful and cannot keep it. Now returning to the original assertion made by our friend Brad in regards to Nathan's personal note in his Bible: [Brad Wrote] Nathan things [sic] that many of his writings were accurate. Including that "the law is negative"[.] Nathan loves this lie and supports it. Clearly Brad has no idea about that which he speaks. Let this be a lesson to all of us! When a man embraces solo scriptural (as Brad has) instead of sola scriptura, errors and misinterpretations will surely abound. For a man who shuts himself in a room with nothing more than the "good ol' Bible" and hopes, through his own power and authority, to understand all things therein without guidance of both the Church and the Holy Spirit, is doomed to never properly understand that which he reads. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah You must really like to read your own stuff. Is that kinda like some like to listen to themself speak ---Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 3, 2007 23:37:41 GMT -5
[Someone Wrote] Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah You must really like to read your own stuff. Is that kinda like some like to listen to themself speak ---Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Snip! Into the file.
Your objection to my post seems to be that it is too long for you. Unfortunately, a comprehensive presentation of the New Testament doctrine of the Law cannot be done in a few, easily-memorised slogans. If serious discussion irks you, perhaps you should find another forum?
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 4, 2007 18:13:04 GMT -5
[Someone Wrote] Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah You must really like to read your own stuff. Is that kinda like some like to listen to themself speak ---Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Snip! Into the file. Your objection to my post seems to be that it is too long for you. Unfortunately, a comprehensive presentation of the New Testament doctrine of the Law cannot be done in a few, easily-memorised slogans. If serious discussion irks you, perhaps you should find another forum? Dear git, How do you know when you have sinned? Best regards, Edy
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Post by No on Aug 4, 2007 19:25:12 GMT -5
[Someone Wrote] Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah You must really like to read your own stuff. Is that kinda like some like to listen to themself speak ---Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Snip! Into the file. Your objection to my post seems to be that it is too long for you. Unfortunately, a comprehensive presentation of the New Testament doctrine of the Law cannot be done in a few, easily-memorised slogans. If serious discussion irks you, perhaps you should find another forum? No serious discussion does not irk (whatever that is) me. You just do not present serious discussions. You ramble after you post a few one liner Scriptures and then make up the rest to fit your needs. As to New Testament doctrine of the law. Yes it can be summed up very easy. Here is how it is done. Matthew 22 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Jn:3:15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jn:3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Deut. 10:12 And now, Israel what doth the Lord the God require of thee, but to fear the Lord they God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord the God with all they heart and with all thy soul, Jer. 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people; and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. Mic. 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good: and what doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God? Matt. 22:37,39 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy god with all they heart, and with all they soul, and with all they mind. Thou shalt love they neighbor thyself. Eccl. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. Is. 1:16,17 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Lean to do well; seek judgement, relive the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 1 Tim 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: Rom 12:1,2 - I Beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable and perfect, will of God. Oh Wait your mind is to closed to understand scripture. I better stop there or you might go TILT.
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Wishes it were an F
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Post by Wishes it were an F on Aug 4, 2007 21:06:51 GMT -5
GIT and Nathan, Perhaps you've missed out that Abraham was justified by Faith. Didn't you know that everyone is saved by Faith in God and not by the law whether they were under the law or not? The law is awesome! I love the law. It is holy. It is given by God. Praise God for the righteous law. Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. GIT and Nathan, please post more of how you think the law is negative. It helps divide the ignorant from the knowledgeable and reveals more about your beliefs to others. God wants you either Hot or Cold. Brad Brad, when it comes to understanding the scriptures I give you a D for your report card.
You love the law.
Paul wrote: Knowing that a man is NOT justify by the works of the law, but by the Faith in Jesus Christ... for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16)
Christ has redeemed us from the CURSE! of the law, being made a curse for us. (Gal. 3:13)
~~~ The Old Testament law was a Covenant God made between Him and the children of Israel. The New Testament is a covenant Jesus Christ has made for ALL who believes in Him as the Lord God and Savior.He probably wishes it were an F coming from you Nathan. Brad has said that he believes in God, salvation by faith in God. Yet when you say the law that was given by God to Moses is negative, that's too much for me. I need something to convict me and praise God for something that helped me see my sin -Wishes it were an F
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 5, 2007 0:13:39 GMT -5
[Someone Wrote] No serious discussion does not irk (whatever that is) me.Irk is a verb that means "to irritate" or "vex". [Someone Wrote] You just do not present serious discussions.I have yet to have a serious discussion about any topic since being back on this forum. Whenever I respond in detail to someone's posts, or start discursive threads, I never get anything back except a whole bunch of abuse. If you do not view my efforts above as a serious discussion, perhaps you could explain what you believe serious discussion is? This would be helpful in facilitating healthy dialogue between us. However, from my point of view, a serious discussion involves making references either to scripture or another source and using these as foundation material for an argument. This is what I have sought to do here. [Someone Wrote] You ramble after you post a few one liner Scriptures and then make up the rest to fit your needs.I cited relevant passages, and commented on them. I find from long apologetic experience on the internet, that this encourages people to actually read what I say, and helps people understand where I am coming from. It is also a useful approach in demonstrating why I hold certain beliefs. In contrast, your strategy of simply cutting-and-pasting verses into your post without making any reflection on those passages, strikes me as a complete waste of time. To be honest, I simply skipped that part of your post. For as much as I love the teaching of the Bible, my concern at the moment is what view you are trying to promote regarding Old Testament Law. It reminds me of a liberal Christian I once debated with who had the silly habit of simply plastering verses from the Bible into her posts and saying triumphantly, "See! It is not me that is refuting you! Saint Peter and Paul have refuted you!". Obviously she lost a lot of arguments. Interpretation is the key. [Someone Wrote] As to New Testament doctrine of the law. Yes it can be summed up very easy. Here is how it is done.I look forward to reading this. The multitude of passages in the New Testament that refer to the Law seem to contradict your opinion that such doctrine can be summed up in a short sentence, but we'll see what you have to write before judging. [Someone wrote] Matthew 22 etc, etc, etcWhat is the significance of putting these verses into your post? Quite frankly I do not see the connection between half of them, and I doubt they have really improved anyone 's understanding of the New Testament doctrine regarding the relationship of the Old Testament Law to the Christian believer. Most of your citations are not even remotely relevant to the topic of Old Testament Law. You have totally ignored the Pauline teachings about the Law, and have not make a single reference to the lengthy discourses in the Epistle to the Hebrews. I'm sorry - you'll need to explain what you are trying to communicate to me here. I'm afraid I don't get it. [Someone Wrote] Oh Wait your mind is to closed to understand scripture. I better stop there or you might go TILT. I find this quite amusing. I have spent half-a-decade in a university as an undergraduate student. I have taught in a whole bunch of schools and written papers and textbooks on a variety of disciplines. As a postgraduate student I have written dozens of research papers on all aspects of education. I have studied under the most well-known professors in Australia (the kinds of guys who make government policy and write curriculum documents), and I have spent six-months studying Sacramental Theology under a highly-respected professor of theology. During all this time, no one has ever accused me of being unable to string together a coherent argument, to discuss a topic comprehensively, or be deficient in my understanding of either Protestant or Roman Catholic theology, or biblical interpretation. Coming hard on a post that is more-or-less nonsensical and contains no thread of argument except the reasoning that "GIT is WRONG!" (for I must be, since I am in the fellowship), I do not think you are in a position to make these kinds of statements. Many kind regards.
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Post by jh62 on Aug 5, 2007 0:30:19 GMT -5
Gloryintruth, I'm wondering which laws you consider to be negative? Maybe it is important to establish which "Law" you're referring to? Are you referring to the Noachide Laws, the ten commandments, or the law put forth to the children of Israel? I believe that most Christians today believe the ten commandments are applicable to Christians, not with the thought that obeying the letter of the law will bring salvation.
So, my question is this. Which of the ten commandments do you feel are negative? Or do you believe they're all negative?
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Post by jh62 on Aug 5, 2007 1:02:33 GMT -5
Better luck at graduating next year! ;D Just kidding...sorry, couldn't resist.
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Post by Shes only on Aug 5, 2007 2:51:31 GMT -5
Gloryintruth, I'm wondering which laws you consider to be negative? Maybe it is important to establish which "Law" you're referring to? Are you referring to the Noachide Laws, the ten commandments, or the law put forth to the children of Israel? I believe that most Christians today believe the ten commandments are applicable to Christians, not with the thought that obeying the letter of the law will bring salvation. So, my question is this. Which of the ten commandments do you feel are negative? Or do you believe they're all negative? She's only against the first ten. -only a Gainst
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Post by gloryintruth on Aug 5, 2007 18:21:36 GMT -5
[Brad Wrote] Made this point earlier.
You do not make points, Brad. You ridicule; abuse; attack. Remember writing those words? That non-confrontational people disgust you? Your form of evangelism is to ride out onto the battlefield and plunge a spear into someone's chest cavity.
[Brad Wrote] Nathan still doesn't like the law.
Nathan has never said this. This is another example of you making up untrue statements about others. Both Nathan and I believe the Law's function and nature to be negative, in the sense of a "negative logic". You are thinking of the popular use of the word "negative" to mean "bad". I know enough about Nathan to confidently say that Nathan does not think the Law is "bad" or "evil".
I know you do not read my posts, Brad, because you have said so in the past. But perhaps you could at least skim through the blue scriptural references in my above text? They could help you to understand what it is that I, Nathan, and the Apostle Paul are going on about.
[Brad Wrote] The commandments of God say that you are not to bear false witness against others.
You accused me once of distorting what you have written, making up untruths with your writings, and placing your words "out of context". I said I found this impossible to understand because I have only ever quoted you in your entirety - so how can that be "out of context"?
I asked you to provide proof of your accusation, promising a full and free apology if you could show me where I lied about your comments. You failed to do so, because you lied.
You bore false witness against me. So, "How you judge, so shall you be judged".
[Brad Wrote] Nathan has accused Brad of being a thief and of being mental.
Nathan has not accused you of being a thief; he has wondered publically how on earth you got your hands on his Bible, or why you would go to so much effort to obtain it.
In regards to being "mental", I don't think Nathan needs to make any accusations to establish that.
[Brad Wrote] Nathan has accused many of being mental.
Many?
[Brad Wrote] Yet Nathan has no support for these statements. He constantly bears false witness.
Just like you have no support for your comments about certain workers being homosexual, or me being a devil-worshipper, or about some in the truth of being followers of demons.
But this does not stop you from saying such things over and over again, does it? "As ye sow, so shall ye reap".
It does not behoove you to whinge and complain when the evil thoughts, spirits and words you have published on the internet return in kind to yourself.
[Brad Wrote] No matter what he says, what is written is written. And his actions show that he doesn't like the law.
I know Nathan well enough to speak for him in this regards. I would say that Nathan thinks well of the Law (knowing it limitations, its curse, and its righteous purpose), but he thinks much higher of the Gospel, which ends the Law of death, and opens up the door to salvation.
[Brad Wrote] I believe he doesn't like the law because it condemns him, therefore he says it is negative.
It condemns you as well, Brad, as it does for all humankind. Do not make the error of placing yourself above the Law, and making yourself a judge over God's word.
Do you love your neighbour as yourself? Even if he is a Samaritan (Professing) and not a Jew (denominational Christian)? No you do not. You are intensely cruel toward the friends.
Do you bear false witness? Yes.
Do you kill (hate, or become angry) other human beings? Yes.
Do you with your mouth bless God on Sunday, and curse man made in the image of God the rest of the week? Yes.
"First remove the beam that is in thine own eye, and then ye shall see to remove the mote that is in thy brother's eye."
[Brad Wrote] Nathan uses one lie after another to try to cover up.
Which lies?
[Brad Wrote] Nathan, adding blood to blood will not clean your garment. You are covered in filth and blood and it shows that you hate your neighbors.
Coming from a man who publishes screeds of anger and hatred, this is the height of hypocrisy. Oh how true it is: they who think they see are often the most blind of all!
[Brad Wrote] Let everyone beware of the man Nathan Barker who falsely accuses and lies to coverup.
As indeed do you, Brad. You have lied about me, and made accusations you could not prove, even when I repeatedly asked you for proof.
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Post by jh62 on Aug 5, 2007 22:35:02 GMT -5
Gloryintruth, I'm wondering if you missed my post by focusing on Brad's?
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good law holy law righteous
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Post by good law holy law righteous on Aug 6, 2007 11:33:42 GMT -5
Eph 6:2 Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
Don't call negative what God has given. All gifts from God are good.
-good law, holy law, righteous
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Post by please list on Aug 6, 2007 11:36:30 GMT -5
Hi my brother GIT,
You can be my spokeperson on here any day! Wow... you are VERY good. You have expressed much better than I could have ever done in answering to Brad's accusation.
I explained to Brad what I meant by the Law is negative at different posts but he ignored and kept on posting my quote "the Law is negative."
Brad is trying to make look bad from posting some of my old Bible quotes which he claimed that he bought from a friend of mine but it has backfired on him because people began to realize his EVIL intention for doing it. Nathan,
You called him a thief for buying your Bible.
Now please list Brad's evil intentions for us.
-please listb
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 6, 2007 11:40:18 GMT -5
Dear git,
May I please get an anwer from my previous post asking, "How do you know when you have sinned?"
Thanx!
Edy
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Talk about False Accusations
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Post by Talk about False Accusations on Aug 6, 2007 11:48:14 GMT -5
Actually, we don't take you seriously. Bert, I remember when Greg Lee was a registered member he likes to attack most or what any 2x2s writes. Sometimes, he signed off and attacks them in the same manner. He is one sneaky guy.... he likes to call people snakes but he is much worse.
Now, he has gone underground.... He is very much active posting as anonymous... watch for his personal attacks posts against most of the 2x2s you can tell it is him. He has been reading, posting on here for 10 yrs so he knows a lot of different ones personal information. So, he like to volunteer personal information to the readers while hiding as anonymous poster.Nathan please list the posts that you think are Greeg Lees. After all you say, "He is very much active posting as anonymous". How do you know this? Can you prove it? If you cannot prove it, then you are making false accusations? Put up or stand down and recant your accusations.
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Post by Evil is as on Aug 6, 2007 21:37:14 GMT -5
GIT wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly with Nathan. Even without reading his personal notes reproduced on this public forum, my thoughts on the issue of the Law would have been identical to Nathan's.
Pro 24:23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.
Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Pro 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Evil is as
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Call not bad what is holy
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Post by Call not bad what is holy on Aug 6, 2007 21:39:01 GMT -5
Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 6, 2007 23:34:49 GMT -5
I'm right here Nathan. I broke a main pipe yesterday while trying to fix a smaller pipe. Rusted through and only a few years old. So I decided to replace all the pipes coming in and around the water heater. Using PEX fittings and WEIRSBO (sp?) pipe. Pretty cool stuff. I don't have any followers Nathan. There are other people who read the Bible I'm sure who can think for themselves. Brad
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 7, 2007 13:53:07 GMT -5
Here are my 2 cents worth on this subject.
I do not see the OT law as being negative.
I see the rigid unmerciful consequences prescribed in the OT for breaking the law as being negative.
And IMHO they are two very different things. The law defines sin and what God hates- the other is the "punishment" for not obeying God.
By right we should all die for what we have done for all have sinned (broken God's law).
But Jesus came to deliver us from certain death- he did not come to change the law or re-define what God hates.
The OT law was referred to as being like a school master.
The OT law was necessary to maintain some semblance of law and order amungst the Children of God.
Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.
God's laws have not changed so we should all love God's law.
But praise be to our LORD for having come to earth to take our place of certain eternal damnation for having broken God's law.
Peace, HFA
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Post by Zorro on Aug 7, 2007 15:16:54 GMT -5
The issue that is glaring in this whole discussion is the fact the Law was much, much more than just the 10 Commandments. The Law also said that the adulteress (as well as her companion) should have been stoned, for example. The Law said the people weren't to wear blended fabrics, or eat pork, etc, etc, etc......pick your favorite. Of course we don't want to forget the various sacrifices that we no longer offer. The serious problem that I'm seeing here is equating the 10 Commandments with the Law, in it's entirety. The bottom line of this whole thing for me.....the veil in the Temple was rent in twain for a REASON!!!!
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 7, 2007 23:47:03 GMT -5
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Aug 7, 2007 23:48:28 GMT -5
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
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