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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 17:58:37 GMT -5
Post by diet coke on Jul 30, 2007 17:58:37 GMT -5
I believe it was Walter Martin (or something like that) who wrote "The Kingdom of Cults" who defined a cult as..... A group of people gathered around someone’s misinterpretation of the BibleMaybe we could say all Christianity IS a cult, then, as it is founded on a mistranslation of the book of Isaiah, giving us the story of the virgin birth?
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 18:03:57 GMT -5
Post by janet on Jul 30, 2007 18:03:57 GMT -5
I believe it was Walter Martin (or something like that) who wrote "The Kingdom of Cults" who defined a cult as..... A group of people gathered around someone’s misinterpretation of the BibleMaybe we could say all Christianity IS a cult, then, as it is founded on a mistranslation of the book of Isaiah, giving us the story of the virgin birth? Hey Coke you have some very valid points. I am still trying to reconcile that I am invisible to most of the Universe. Did you check out that link of the cosmos I put up? Really puts things in perspective.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 18:13:08 GMT -5
Post by janet on Jul 30, 2007 18:13:08 GMT -5
Maybe we could say all Christianity IS a cult, then, as it is founded on a mistranslation of the book of Isaiah, giving us the story of the virgin birth? Jesus and the early apostles fit most of these characteristics as a Cult leaders according to today definition for sure.You are making camparisons..---ShEESH----Nope not comparison. All We Need Is Love--La lala lalaaaa
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 18:42:15 GMT -5
Post by Hi Janet on Jul 30, 2007 18:42:15 GMT -5
I use to not believe that it was a cult. Now I am not sure anymore. Reason: The strong insistence to deny every aspect of its origins coupled with the intense need to have everyone follow what the workers tell them, to the point of even avoiding the review of other scriptural studies. They are worldly. Cult characteristics I believe. You are right Janet. The workers live and teach a gospel of fear and paranoia, not Hope, Faith and Charity.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 23:48:46 GMT -5
Post by Jessi on Jul 30, 2007 23:48:46 GMT -5
GiT wrote: And right on cue, we have Jessi chiming up how her understanding of Christianity
. . . AND SO ON . . .
GiT:
Do I believe you are reformed? No. I'm having a hard time believing you are even a Christian after reading this thread. I am comparing your actions/words with I Cor 1:1-13. Why are you writing about people in that way? I almost want to say you can’t be for real. Your true identity seems just as unverifiable as anonymous posters.
It’s hard to imagine that you wouldn’t at least TRY to hold back from cutting people down. But seems to me a Christian wouldn’t treat people like that, let alone a reformed one. You claim to be a Christian, but . . . something wrong is here . . .
Any confidence I have is in the Holy Word, in Jesus. Otherwise, I will fail in my own works. In fact, I can be more confident in the Bible because it’s NOT MY words, but God’s. I stand by it, for it is entirely about the object of my faith, the Lord Jesus Christ in whom I have placed my trust. It is the Truth (Jn 17:17).
Any group who takes on the name of the Name above all Names should tell the Truth. That is, they should preach Jesus. That’s what the Bible (The Truth) says: II Cor 4:5. That’s why it’s a cult. They ADORE the workers and themselves and their “way of life” and appearance more than they adore Jesus Christ. Don’t forget, that I grew up in it. The only thing that has changed is that they have become even more secretive, another sign of a heretical cult.
I never met a reformed person who mocks people and tries to intimidate them by making remarks about their intelligence/ignorance/ability to argue with superior intellects, etc. Reformed people I have met and have come to know and love (and who I learn from) certainly don’t hold themselves in high esteem . . . but always point to Christ. That’s what turned on the lights for me. He is Holy and Most High and lifted up. They honor the Cross and exalt the Lord Christ—many times, at the expense of their own honor, taking abuse for the Name. I've seen it. It's beautiful. I have a lot to learn.
As long as you defend a fellowship as the “Truth”, or exalt a group of people over Jesus Christ as the TRUTH, you will never win. He is Lord and He is the Head of the Church. If one tries to exalt other than Jesus, they will fail. Jesus says, John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
GIT: Here Jessi insists that all my comments have been about me, and not about Jesus. Despite the fact that the topic is on the use of the term "cult" in relation to the Church, and despite the fact that no one else has been making any references to Christ or the Bible, she would have us believe that we must weave such references into any topic of discussion we would tender. Such is totally absurd; extreme to the point of fundamental radicalism.
Why else would you call it Christianity if you can’t weave Christ into every topic? He is woven into every page of Scripture. If there is no place for Jesus in every single topic concerning His Church, which He bought with His own blood, the entire reason for our salvation, our great hope, is in vain, then. Christ is the head of the church. If He is not exalted, He is not the Head of the Church. He who glories, let him glory in the Lord (II Cor 10:17).
Moreover, why does Jessi place "my worship" in parenthesis as though these were words I typed. I have never referred to "my worship" as though it were a commodity on the religious market.
I was referring to reply#24 where you wrote: I have equal credibility calling the behaviour of some ex-2x2s cultic, as they have in calling my worship a manifestation of a cult.
I did not understand. I asked what you meant by it, while failing to give the reference in your many writings. My apologies.
Furthermore, as I pointed out previously, Jessi is a hypocite when she claims I defend only myself and not the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, I am a hypocrite. I do what I don’t want to do and don’t do what I should do (Rom 7:15). I’m a sinner. Let’s face it. We’re all hypocrites. The Bible says we are. Every heart is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer 17:9). Paul himself, the Apostle’s apostle said he was, so I definitely must be. We all fall short of the glory of God.
does Jessi actively defend Christ on the atheist sub-board . . . engage with liberal theologians on other web-boards . . . Roman Catholicism board. . . and advancing pages and pages of original argument against . . . defending orthodox Christianity against those who were asserting the truth of gnosticism and the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Peter etc? . . . .
You can have knowledge of all these things and use the knowledge to uplift yourself, as I can imagine you do the same thing on other boards as you have in this thread--and still exalt yourself and your own knowledge.
I have a job and a life and other ministries outside the board and have a limited amount of time to spend posting. I post here because I love my people and pray for them every day and I want them to know Jesus Christ. This is a general statement, not meant to bear the assumption that no F&W are elect. But the system is glorified and preached, not Christ.
I post and read only on TMB concerning F&W. Who says I have to post on other boards to refute something you write? Is this a rule somewhere? Keeping up with your many words would be a full time job. Hey, I’m wordy, too.
So, I wouldn’t expect someone to read every one of my words and be all caught up on ME every time they talk to me. I’m sure most skim over a lot of it. That’s OK. I am not averse to answering the same questions over again. That seems to be the nature of the board as new people come on, who haven’t read every one of your words and kept them in a special file—contrary to what you may think.
sanctimonious woman does not and cannot engage in any kind of apologia for Christ, The fact she has such audacity utterly without merit grossly hypocritical does not have the foggiest clue lack of understanding of the issues so preoccupied with being theologically better
For out of the abudance of the heart, the mouth speaks (Matt 12:34, Lk 6:45).
Yes, not only am I a sinner, but all those things you have called me above. I’m probably not very good at apologetics, either. But, with all my failings, there is good news. I am forgiven of all those things. Because I am forgiven, I love Jesus and try to obey what He wants me to do, which is to tell others about Him, to fulfill the Great Commission. No secrets. I will answer for my faith. That is Christ, not me.
I have a special prayer for F&W, who are my people. I came from them. They are on my mind all the time. I pray for you, too, GiT – because, while you may have a lot of knowledge about certain religious ideas, you seem so far away from Jesus. If you don’t love other Christians, how can you say you love Him? Do you believe there are Christians outside the “fellowship?” If so, how can you tell they are Christians? How do you know?
Jessi believes, like Brad, that no one in the fellowship is saved, irrespective of their beliefs or personal experiences).
You are wrong to suppose that I don’t think there are elect among my people. But salvation is not found in a group of people, but in ONE Person, Jesus Christ. And when the Great Shepherd leaves the flock to come and get them, trust—they will leave the group, the system that claims to be “the Truth” and trust in Him Alone. They will leave their families for Him. They would die for Him. Because they are His. They know His voice and He will lead them out. They will not stay where He is not preached nor glorified.
It says a lot about their intellectual capacity as well, Jessi.
I Cor 1: 27-29 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
You mean, they think the fellowship is a cult, just like you think it is a cult, and as your opinion defines the world, it must be right.
Yes. I believe it is a heretical cult system just as much Irvine was a heretic. I don’t want it to be. I fought against the word also, not wanting to believe it was a cult I was deceived by -- It’s a hard saying for F&W and I neither revel nor glory in it. But it’s the truth. The Bible says if anyone comes to me with any other gospel, even an angel, he is accursed. Damned.
The F&W preach another gospel based on works, something other than Jesus, exalting man and not God. Most F&W I know do not believe in the Trinity or the deity of Christ, loudly proclaiming that He is certainly not God and they will never believe it. The biggest tell-tale sign is that they do not preach Jesus and Him crucified and resurrected with any clarity or consistency.
If they SAY they do, when questioned, as I questioned you a while back, it all comes back to the idea that there lies in man some sort of special white, pure island in our black, wicked hearts that remains untouched by the fall – that allows us to respond to the gospel apart from the drawing of the Father and the blood of God -- and that we must work for our salvation through the dirty works that God condemns in the Bible (Is 64:6).
What most cult members do when questioned about their faith is exactly what you do. Cut, tear and hate and NEVER respond to the original question. Intimidation is the key to cult control. You almost exemplify my total experience with every “worker” I ever questioned.
So, here goes, GiT. Because I love you and I want you to know the truth about Jesus – which is very simple, really.
The Truth is not a group. Jn 17:17
The Truth is the Bible, which is written about Jesus, not anything you find in yourself. But Jesus is the Way, the Truth AND the Life. He is exalted on high. He is Lord.
Christ’s Forever,
Jessi
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Cult?
Jul 31, 2007 18:01:29 GMT -5
Post by gloryintruth on Jul 31, 2007 18:01:29 GMT -5
I am unimpressed with Jessi's response, because just as I asserted previously, it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, but revolves - like a perpetual motion machine - around the personal failings, flaws and alleged beliefs of another individual (that is to say, me). And whilst this post is more calm in tone than the material published by Brad, yet the core of innuendo and implication remains, along with the inability to engage the issues presented.
(Of course I do realise at this stage I am not going to get, and never will get, a meaningful response to my three points in relation to the use of the term cult.)
Let the reader be not decieved! This is what I call "guiltless personal attack" - done under the guise of holiness.
[Jessi Wrote] Do I believe you are reformed? No.
She says I am not Reformed!
Fortunately, I rest no less easy at night because Jessi does not believe that I am Reformed. I maintain that she has absolutely no way of proving her baseless assertions regarding which doctrines I hold, support, defend and cherish, but I also recognise that this is the general working paradigm in which Jessi labours: assume knowledge about a person's intimate thoughts and experiences, and lecture them about what they really believe.
This is Jessi's hallmark. This is what characterises the vast majority of Jessi's posts on this forum - her belief that she is a teacher of babes, and a guide to those in darkness!
[Jessi Wrote] I'm having a hard time believing you are even a Christian after reading this thread.
Not so long ago you defended Brad's writings from a just and fair critique by a number of participants, so I doubt you have much authority on determining who is and who is not a Christian. Moreover, I do not recall anyone vesting you with the right to judge the substance and reality of a man's faith.
As I have said previously, Jessi produces material that means more-or-less exactly what Brad publishes with monotonous regularity on these pages, but the way in which it is put is much more subtle. Jessi maintains that I am not Reformed; here Jessi goes one step further and maintains that I am not even a Christian, just as Brad has repeatedly asserted.
"I have a hard time believing you are even a Christian" - the expression of doubt about a person's professed beliefs is also a species of judgement.
[Jessi Wrote] I am comparing your actions/words with I Cor 1:1-13.
I could compare your words with many passages of scripture: "Are you defending Christ . . . or still all GiT/& "The Fellowship"?" A purely subjective assualt, richly decorated with verses about Pharisees and "whited sepulchers" and "false teachers", as if my comments about using the term cult in relation to the Church was a form of false teaching (a false teaching with which apparently no one can engage or refute - does darkness dispel light, or does light dispel darkness?).
Your implications are obvious to anyone who pays attention. You were condemning me, but of course via innuendo, because this is the way you generally function. Not being able to interact with the material that is actually presented, you choose instead to work on the person, making horrendous statements about matters of which you have absolutely no insight or possible way of knowing.
Despite lacking in godly omniscience, and being but human like the rest of us, you still persist in this kind of behaviour. I suppose it is to be expected, for nothing is impossible with the mantle of theological authority!
[Jessi Wrote] Why are you writing about people in that way? I almost want to say you can’t be for real. Your true identity seems just as unverifiable as anonymous posters.
In a nutshell, your subjective point here seems to be as follows: that I am so mean, so cruel, so outlandish, so committed, so fanatical (which ever perjorative you wish to use) that it almost seems surreal to concieve of me as an actual human being synonymous with the views I advocate and advance on this forum. In addition, you bring matters back to the issue of "true identity" - unverifiable, you say, and worthless as profiles go, not at all dissimilar from the anonymous contributors.
This is a common tactic of those who simply have no counterpoint to advance, and have only a failed argument to offer. Attack the person's identity, and thereby hope to deflect attention away from the actual issues in view. Jessi seems to be a master of such a strategem, which of course is not at all surprising when a person realises (sub-consciously) that their own worldview or perspective is undefendable, but they do not wish to change their minds, or refine their understanding.
Let me remind Jessi of my response when she made the same point in a similar discussion the last time I was on this forum. I pointed out to you that a profile is not intended to function as a form of personal identification, and that profiles can certainly be falsified. They contain no garranteed information. I also pointed out that you were in no position to become huffy about profiles, and their content or lack thereof, because you fail to provide any information in your own profile pertaining to your surname, or geographic whereabouts. This effectively leaves you in the same position in which you find me. [Jessi Wrote] It’s hard to imagine that you wouldn’t at least TRY to hold back from cutting people down. But seems to me a Christian
Perhaps you could lead by example. I think Jessi does a bang up job of cutting people down, and an excellent ostrich impression when she buries her head in the ground and imagines that she herself is as blameless as the driven snow, so that she has some kind of moral authority to lecture others.
[Jessi Wrote] wouldn’t treat people like that, let alone a reformed one. You claim to be a Christian, but . . . something wrong is here. . .
Pot to kettle, Jessi. If you think your comments do not comprise "cutting people down", then you are sadly mistaken. I think your comments are highly judgemental, your quotations of scripture misapplied for an unsavoury purpose (you use scripture much the same way as a policeman uses his truncheon; you select verses with the apparent design in mind of condemning and attacking. I do not believe an impartial reader could escape this conclusion. If I wrote a response to you with frequent allusions to Haman, Sinballat, Joash, and Judas Iscariot, you too might feel the same way. This is another example of the "guiltless attack", through selective citation of scripture).
Furthermore, your comment that "something is wrong" with the elipse added for effect, is clearly intended to imply that you have judged me not to be a Christian. You deny my faith, or that I have had an experience with God.
Ironically, this is precisely the behaviour you speak against in relation to the friends. We within the fellowship allegedly deny the Holy Spirit at work in other lives in denominational churches. We allegedly deny that anyone else is a Christian if they do not conform to our standards or our precise definitions of what a Christian is. You say this behaviour is elementary to the definition of a "cult", yet it is employed in many of your writings!
[Jessi Wrote] Any confidence I have is in the Holy Word, in Jesus.
I could say the same, but you deny my faith. You negate my experience. You belittle my profession.
[Jessi Wrote] Otherwise, I will fail in my own works. In fact, I can be more confident in the Bible because it’s NOT MY words, but God’s. I stand by it, for it is entirely about the object of my faith, the Lord Jesus Christ in whom I have placed my trust. It is the Truth (Jn 17:17).
I have frequently defended sola scriptura, and the concept that the Bible is to be the Church's final authority. However, what you seem to be describing is solo scriptura, that is to say, you and your Bible alone lead you to ultimate truth. This is contrary to the Reformed doctrine which states that the Church is also a valid authority, and can have an important and equal role in guiding the faith of the Christian, although it must always defer to the Bible. Solo scriptura, of course, is a heretical doctrine, and the mark of heterodox groups such as King Jame Onlyists, Jack Chick adherents and so forth.
[Jessi Wrote] That’s why it’s a cult. They ADORE the workers and themselves and their “way of life” and appearance more than they adore Jesus Christ. Don’t forget, that I grew up in it. The only thing that has changed is that they have become even more secretive, another sign of a heretical cult.
You make blatant generalisations from your goddess-like standpoint. I do notice you often resort thither, assuming the omniscient, third-person perspective, using it without qualification or reservation. Rather you should write that when you were in the fellowship, you obtained a mistaken belief that you ought to adore the workers, and that you interpreted the respect others demonstrated for the workers as the same quality. Due to your incorrect views, you sidelined the Lord.
This would be more accurate than concluding all of the friends - most of whom you have never met and never will meet - under the same blanket description.
[Jessi Wrote] I never met a reformed person who mocks people and tries to intimidate them by making remarks about their intelligence/ignorance/ability to argue with superior intellects, etc.
You seem to imply "reformed people" are wonderful in every respect, whose interactions are always based upon the Bible, and who never make negative comments. This sounds dangerously like adoration to me! However, I can tell you I have certainly come across "reformed people" (or more correctly, people who hold to Reformed doctrines) who have been downright odious. This is because of original sin, which has tainted all, even (perhaps especially) those who have been called by the predestination of God to hold orthodox doctrine.
The fact you define the holders of Reformed doctrine as "reformed people", as though the doctrine and belief system is so internalised it virtually defines them as human beings, suggests to me the existence of an ideology - you often hear people say, "He was a communist", or "He was a Nazi". It sounds out of place to say, "He is reformed". (A reformed what? the average individual might rightly ask.)
And which should be our primary identity? Being a holder of Reformation doctrine, or a follower of Jesus Christ?
[Jessi Wrote] Reformed people I have met and have come to know and love (and who I learn from) certainly don’t hold themselves in high esteem . . . but always point to Christ. That’s what turned on the lights for me. He is Holy and Most High and lifted up. They honor the Cross and exalt the Lord Christ—many times, at the expense of their own honor, taking abuse for the Name. I've seen it. It's beautiful. I have a lot to learn.
Sounds like a perfect bunch of folks. Very different from the people I meet with. Let me tell you, my brethren are one lot of flawed people with a whole, big, whopping, overflowing truckload of issues and problems. In many respects, my brethren are very similar to those who were in the church at Corinth. But despite their failings, they are united in the struggle against sin, the fight to which we are called through Christ. And I love them.
You are describing people in whom you see no evidence of original sin; you are describing people who seem to have escaped the effects of the Fall, and whose redemption is already complete. This is not an orthodox position, for the Bible clearly teaches that even though no longer under the condemnation of sin, and even though we have been changed from the heart, yet the effects of sin remain. It is not entirely erradicated.
Are you sure you have not simply found another group of people to adore? [Jessi Wrote] As long as you defend a fellowship as the “Truth”
You write with little regard for my position, which I have articulated many times and of which you remain wilfully ignorant.
I know this to be the case, because I have directly told you this in the past, and you choose - as ever - to flatter yourself in knowing my beliefs better than I do. I find it somewhat amusing that you could even come out with something like this.
Neither I, nor one of my fellow apologists would make a statement like this. Moreover, I have never identified the fellowship with the truth, when speaking of truth in the sense of religious, philosophical or moral truth. That comes solely from God.
[Jessi Wrote] or exalt a group of people over Jesus Christ as the TRUTH
Read what you have written about "reformed people". It is full of statements about what "reformed people" DO. There is not one single mention of GRACE in anything you have written regarding those who hold Reformed beliefs (in fact, I do not think you mention grace once in your entire post). Clearly "reformed people" are somehow superchristians, doing what the rest of us cannot, and what the rest of us must pray to Jesus to accomplish on our behalf.
Moreover, I have never exalted people. A good understanding of the Doctrine of Original Sin makes this quite impossible, thank you very much.
[Jessi Wrote] Why else would you call it Christianity if you can’t weave Christ into every topic?
Do you mention Jesus when ordering Mozzarella cheese from a deli, or filling up your car with petrol, or discussing whether the term "abortion" is actually accurate? Of course not. As I said, Jesus is absolutely relevant to guiding every aspect of our lives and thinking, but during a discussion it is not always necessary or appropriate to mention him (as in my examples above). When discussing the term "cult", it was unnecessary.
Of course you may choose to misunderstand this, since you cannot engage any topic and much prefer to deflect matters to a different level where you can point the finger and make a condemnation because someone has not used the name of the Lord in several paragraphs.
Honestly, the basis upon which you make judgements! Entirely based on works of the hands, and the perceptions of the flesh!
This is not orthodox Christianity at all!
[Jessi Wrote] Yes, I am a hypocrite. I do what I don’t want to do and don’t do what I should do (Rom 7:15). I’m a sinner. Let’s face it. We’re all hypocrites. The Bible says we are. Every heart is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer 17:9). Paul himself, the Apostle’s apostle said he was, so I definitely must be. We all fall short of the glory of God.
The Apostle's apostle? Are you elevating the work of Paul above that of the other Apostles? Even Paul did not have such a lofty view of himself!
Despite your recognition of your human weakness, you seem to place great confidence in your judgements of others.
[Jessi Wrote] You can have knowledge of all these things and use the knowledge to uplift yourself, as I can imagine you do the same thing on other boards as you have in this thread--and still exalt yourself and your own knowledge.
No. This is your flawed interpretation of my actions, Jessi, and not the truth. You have neither the right, nor do you have the knowledge about my motives to make the claim that I exalt myself and my own knowledge, and that this is my primary reason for writing. I find the TMB utterly disgusting. It is like sucking from the sump-pump of spiritual poison everytime one logs on, but I do so for a specific reason which I have no need to justify to you.
It must be said, however, that one thing I have observed on repeated occassions, is that while you judge me for not "defending Christ", I have never seen you advance so much as a single post against Gnosticism, Roman Catholicism, Purgatory, Marian devotion, or those who reject any of the Solas. [Jessi Wrote] I have a job and a life and other ministries outside the board and have a limited amount of time to spend posting.
As do most of us, I should imagine.
[Jessi Wrote] I post here because I love my people and pray for them every day and I want them to know Jesus Christ. This is a general statement, not meant to bear the assumption that no F&W are elect. But the system is glorified and preached, not Christ.
We are not "your people". We are the people of God.
[Jessi Wrote] So, I wouldn’t expect someone to read every one of my words and be all caught up on ME every time they talk to me. I’m sure most skim over a lot of it.
I would not be surprised.
[Jessi Wrote] That’s OK. I am not averse to answering the same questions over again. That seems to be the nature of the board as new people come on, who haven’t read every one of your words and kept them in a special file—contrary to what you may think.
Who even implied that you kept them in a special file? Did I make any mention of this, implicit or explicit, at any stage during my writings? Absolutely not! The thought never even entered my mind, for two reasons - firstly I am not that arrogant, and secondly, you clearly are not very knowledgable regarding my work on this forum.
[Jessi Wrote] I pray for you, too, GiT – because, while you may have a lot of knowledge about certain religious ideas, you seem so far away from Jesus.
How delightfully self-sacrificing of you. I am glad you have an intimate knowledge of whom Jesus has called and whom he has rejected. It must be good to know you are on the list! Us poor mortal sinners, on the other hand, must hope in the gracious predestination of God not only in regards to ourselves, but also in regards to others who are outside the fold. For the record, I leave your salvation and spiritual status up to God, because I do not want to be held guilty for denying someone else's faith.
[Jessi Wrote] You are wrong to suppose that I don’t think there are elect among my people.
We are not "your people", and I think I can speak for the majority of the Church when I say that we reject being identified as "yours" in the strongest possible terms. Such is an offence to us. We belong not to you at all! We are the Lord's, and we belong to no man. Moreover, you went out from among us because you were not one of us; you did not hear us; you did not recieve a spiritual unction regarding the truth. We are not yours, and you are not ours.
[Jessi Wrote] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
But God did not choose idiots to proclaim his word, neither did he place his gospel in the mouth of donkeys. To believe that it is a commenable thing for a person to write "More BS from GIT" and that this "confounds the wise" is foolishness indeed!
[Jessi Wrote] Yes. I believe it is a heretical cult system just as much Irvine was a heretic. I don’t want it to be. I fought against the word also, not wanting to believe it was a cult I was deceived by -- It’s a hard saying for F&W and I neither revel nor glory in it. But it’s the truth. The Bible says if anyone comes to me with any other gospel, even an angel, he is accursed. Damned.
You left the Church because someone persuaded you it was a "cult". I find it ironic you cannot even tackle the issues I have presented in opposition to the use of this term, yet you use it so liberally. [Jessi Wrote] The F&W preach another gospel based on works,
That is not what I have heard, recieved, professed, and believed from my youth.
[Jessi Wrote] If they SAY they do, when questioned, as I questioned you a while back, it all comes back to the idea that there lies in man some sort of special white, pure island in our black, wicked hearts that remains untouched by the fall – that allows us to respond to the gospel apart from the drawing of the Father and the blood of God -- and that we must work for our salvation through the dirty works that God condemns in the Bible (Is 64:6).
I have NEVER maintained this at all! This is a lie, pure and simple! I have ALWAYS maintained, and more importantly, CONSISTENTLY maintained that man is totally and utterly dead in trespasses and sins apart from the gracious calling of God from before the foundation of the world. I have CONSISTENTLY maintained that the completion of the taint of Original Sin, and the absolute nature of the Fall make man incapable of doing anything for his own salvation.
No one who bothers to actually read what I Write about my beliefs, before commenting on what I believe, could make a statement that is tantamount to slander. [Jessi Wrote] What most cult members do when questioned about their faith is exactly what you do. Cut, tear and hate and NEVER respond to the original question.
Good grief! O hypocrisy thy name is Jessi! What would you say you have done in this thread Jessi? Responded to the actual issue on the terminology of cults, or "cut, tear and hate" by telling me that I am self-centred, self-interested, not Christian, not a holder of Reformed beliefs, that I am a Pharisee, a false teacher, damned because I have recieved "another gospel", and that I am attempting to secure my faith on the basis of works.
Be still my heart! Be silent thou flooding pulse!
Behold the monumental hypocrisy of the above assertion! Jessi does precisely what she accuses, condemns and judges me of doing, and then claims that this sort of behaviour is a key characteristic of belonging to a cult! Has Jessi addressed the original point at all? No. Has she discussed the term "cult" in her enormous post? No. He she addressed the issue I raised concerning the numerous abusive posters? No.
Well what precisely has she done? She has produced a big slab of text telling me what I believe, and why I am going to hell. If this is not a manifestation of "cut, tear, hate" then blow me down, and knock me over with a feather. We have an entirely new language emerging in which words mean their absolute opposite.
As I have said, Jessi is the equivalent of Brad, but much more subtle.
[Jessi Wrote] Intimidation is the key to cult control. You almost exemplify my total experience with every “worker” I ever questioned.
I do not doubt that you incited them to frustration, and provoked them to annoyance. But do not blame them for that.
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Cult?
Aug 1, 2007 23:41:54 GMT -5
Post by Jessi on Aug 1, 2007 23:41:54 GMT -5
GiT:
REFORMED: I mentioned some qualities and characteristics of reformed people because you say you are reformed. I compared your characteristics with some reformed people I know. I know many Christians who are not reformed—many friends I have are Christians, but not reformed. Still taught by God, blessed with Grace, disciples of Jesus. I support missions of non-reformed people. Faith Bible Church, of which I am a member, is on my signature. FBC supports several missionaries. Not all are Reformers. But, of course, they Christians.
REFORMED BELIEFS: No reformer (or any true Christian) would not remain a member of a heretical cult whose majority does not believe that Jesus is God nor believe in the Trinity—and most importantly, one that does not have a written statement of faith. You can say “WE” all you want, but . . . while you identify with F&W, —and you have nothing that proves you are with them or that they affirm your beliefs but your own (anonymous) claims. You choose to remain anonymous, under a title that clearly does not glorify Jesus, but a system/group of people, who take the name of Truth, a title Jesus called Himself.
VERIFIABLE IDENTITY: What I meant by this is that you identify yourself with the F&W, yet claim to be a reformer, which doctrine is contrary to F&W “doctrine” (which is not, fortunately and conveniently for you, written down anywhere and signed). So, you can claim the F&W believe certain things – when most ex-F&W know they don’t. That they don’t write anything down is a tell-tale sign that they are not a legitimate body of believers.
PHYSICAL AND GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION: I am a member of Faith Bible Church in Virginia Beach, Va. Our website is on my signature, which has phone numbers and the address of my church-and I have a valid email. It would be easy to verify my identity. If one called the pastor, he would be able to verify my past in the F&W and my beliefs. He would affirm my claims that the F&W are not a legitimate church, but a modern-day heretical cult. He has read the Secret Sect and has seen the other books and websites. There are no secrets on this end. Most importantly, we have a statement of faith, what we believe about Jesus, very public. No secrets.
JUDGING: . . . you have judged me not to be a Christian. You deny my faith, or that I have had an experience with God.
I said I wondered if you even were a Christian, that I had doubts. No more than what you have said about me. The Lord knows who are His. “Bitterness, unthinking hostility, and a sense of superiority” are, according to you, un-Christian enough for one to be almost judged an unbeliever by you. So, what is the difference between your statement and mine? Both of us have doubts and judgments, but neither could say for sure.
The Lord knows who are His. We can only use the litmus tests given in the Bible. We know that those who keep His commandments are disciples of Jesus (I Jn 2:4 ), the one greatest commandment, being love. We all fall short of the glory of God. But Biblical love seems to be giving people the whole counsel of God, not just the part they like to hear or something that strokes their egos.
THE WORD, CULT: A cult is a group of people who adore something or someone, or a particular system of religious worship. The fact is, Christianity IS a cult. That’s true. Christians worship the Holy One, Jesus Christ and our faith is in Him Alone. Anyone who worships anything other than Jesus is a heretical cult.
I apologize, then for my mistake; for the F&W is truly not just a cult, but a heretical cult, since it was started by the heretical teachings of one man, William Irvine. Since the F&W worship themselves and their “way” of worship over the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, they are a heretical cult. They do not glory in the Cross. They glory in themselves.
SOLA SCRIPTURA: The Bible was breathed out by God and it is His Word in written form (II Tim 3:15-16). God inspired His WRITTEN Word (II Pet 1:20-21). The Scriptures cannot be broken (Jn 10:35), Jesus says, and so He is speaking of God’s written word. So, the Bible is the final authority in all matters of faith and morals and as such, it is the only written source from God and the only basis of truth for Christians. Jesus is on every page of Scripture and He is the object of my faith. I worship the Jesus of the Bible, whose story is ONLY told in the Bible.
SELF EXALTATION: Moreover, I have never exalted people. A good understanding of the Doctrine of Original Sin makes this quite impossible, thank you very much.
Your title on TMB exalts a group of people who call themselves the truth, usurping the Name of Jesus for themselves as the Way to eternal life, calling themselves the one true church. They have said they are the WAY and the TRUTH, and soon, they may be saying they are the LIFE.
TMB: I find the TMB utterly disgusting. It is like sucking from the sump-pump of spiritual poison everytime one logs on, but I do so for a specific reason which I have no need to justify to you. [/color]
Are you on here because you want F&W exes to be saved? Or because you want us to leave? If you believe we are not saved, wouldn’t you try to help us? If I am not a Christian in your judgment, tell me how I can be saved, please.
SALVATION: For the record, I leave your salvation and spiritual status up to God, because I do not want to be held guilty for denying someone else's faith.
The Bible doesn't condemn someone for doubting someone’s salvation. It does tell us to be discerning about who is a Christian, how we can tell if someone is (I Jn 2:4). If someone proclaims to be a Christian, but has no love, there is cause to wonder. The Bible says I should take a look at that.
NOT OF US: Anyone who won’t write down and sign what they believe about Jesus Christ . . . you’re right. I am not of them. I went out from them and I don't plan to come back -- and I was never of them. I was His. Those who are His will not stay.
UNLEARNED PERSONS: But God did not choose unlearned persons to proclaim his word,
Then most of the workers are out. I would say most are not educated beyond high school. The apostles knew the Scriptures. They were learned in that way. Most workers, on the other hand, know very little scripture, and couldn’t do a verse by verse exposition to save their lives. Because they are false teachers, of course.
DONKEYS: . . . neither did he place his gospel in the mouth of donkeys.
The Lord did open the mouth of a donkey and cause a man to repent of his sin (Num 22: 27-34). That was the OT gospel.
Peace to you, GiT
Christ’s Forever,
Jessi
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Cult?
Aug 2, 2007 12:06:21 GMT -5
Post by wud ever on Aug 2, 2007 12:06:21 GMT -5
would not remain a member of a heretical cult whose majority does not believe that Jesus is God nor believe in the Trinity Jessi You are confused. But......then so are the masses.
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Cult?
Aug 2, 2007 15:15:39 GMT -5
Post by To GIF on Aug 2, 2007 15:15:39 GMT -5
GIF, you make some good points which I happen to agree with you about. But doesn't it feel like you are looking into a strong mirror? What you accuse Jessie of you are doing as well.
Janet, his post does not feel like honey and sweetness to me. It feels like judgment at it's rawest core. No wonder you said your post to Jessie was not your finest moment GIF. I truly understand why you said this now I've finally read it.
This is just an observation....
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