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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 19:54:24 GMT -5
Post by las logged out on Jul 29, 2007 19:54:24 GMT -5
For instance, I have repeatedly said that I believe salvation is possible outside of the fellowship, but not outside of Christ. I hence reject the much maligned "exclusivity" about which so much as been written by ex-2x2s. Please clarify... Would you say yes to the following 4 questions? 1. Do you believe it’s possible for someone to be doing the will of God, serving God to their fullest, and be approved by God if they once professed, but quit the meetings and now attend a different Christian church?
2. Are there any preachers or pastors in the world, outside of the workers ministry, who are preaching and upholding the true Gospel of Jesus Christ?
3. Do you believe someone can continue to serve God to their fullest and truly worship him as you and I do if they come into contact with the workers, but decline to be a part of the fellowship or reject the 2x2 ministry for whatever reason?
4. If someone is truly seeking God with an honest and open heart, is it possible they will be lead to anywhere else besides the 2x2 fellowship?I shall answer yes to all the questions
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Christian cult definition
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 20:02:16 GMT -5
Post by Christian cult definition on Jul 29, 2007 20:02:16 GMT -5
Christian cults typically:
Add to the word of God, subtract from the person and work of Jesus Christ, multiply the conditions for salvation and divide themselves from other Christians.
I see the F&W's as fitting this description perfectly.
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 20:17:07 GMT -5
Post by you on Jul 29, 2007 20:17:07 GMT -5
shut yourself up. I was talking about GIT
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Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 21:20:38 GMT -5
Post by _ on Jul 29, 2007 21:20:38 GMT -5
shut yourself up. I was talking about GIT And I was talking to you.. SHUT UP!
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 21:28:05 GMT -5
Post by to bryan on Jul 29, 2007 21:28:05 GMT -5
Yes, bryan. Thank you for reminding me that you are the boss of TMB.
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Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 21:29:05 GMT -5
Post by _ on Jul 29, 2007 21:29:05 GMT -5
Yes, bryan. Thank you for reminding me that you are the boss of TMB. you're welcome...
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 21:29:48 GMT -5
Post by TO THE BIGMOUTH on Jul 29, 2007 21:29:48 GMT -5
SHUT UP, BRYAN
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Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 21:31:00 GMT -5
Post by _ on Jul 29, 2007 21:31:00 GMT -5
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 21:31:45 GMT -5
Post by mirrored on Jul 29, 2007 21:31:45 GMT -5
shut yourself up. I was talking about GIT And I was talking to you.. SHUT UP! LOL
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 23:14:02 GMT -5
Post by Jessi on Jul 29, 2007 23:14:02 GMT -5
Yes, Thank God, I am not like other men . . . publican (Lk 18:11). . . Rings bells. Sends me straight back to the Word, where is comfort and strength. Jesus. Safety.
I'ts still all about GiT and not about Jesus . . . still with the I, me, mine, my, ("my worship?" What is "your worship?" Still defending yourself and not Christ -- Where is the love?
So, you're right, GiT. Their "interpretation of your writings" says a lot about their character. They are not deceived, it appears. They are most likely some of those elect exes and there are plenty of F&W still in who are discerning enough to pick out the false teacher when they see one (there is just a lot at stake in their leaving).
False teachers are to be treated differently. Jesus called them on the carpet for not being able to see themselves as the sinners they were (publican/pharisee in the temple praying). They thought they were higher than everyone else.
I guess my standards of dialogue and discussion are higher than those of such participants.
Jesus called the pharisees "whited sepulchers." He wasn't as patient and gentle with a pharisee as he was with a prostitute. Did you notice?
I, me, my and mine.
The Bible says that those who are Christ's honor Him and glory in His Cross. They love HIm and there is None like Him and they proclaim His Name, the only Name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.
Are you defending Christ . . . or still all GiT/& "The Fellowship"?
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
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Cult?
Jul 29, 2007 23:20:32 GMT -5
Post by Jessi on Jul 29, 2007 23:20:32 GMT -5
Christian cults typically: Add to the word of God, subtract from the person and work of Jesus Christ, multiply the conditions for salvation and divide themselves from other Christians. I see the F&W's as fitting this description perfectly. This is a very direct, simple definition of a cult. Thanks for the post. I also see exactly the conditions I grew up in as I read it. Thanks a lot. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 0:15:30 GMT -5
Post by diet coke on Jul 30, 2007 0:15:30 GMT -5
Add to the word of God, subtract from the person and work of Jesus Christ, multiply the conditions for salvation and divide themselves from other Christians. Thank God f&w's don't do any of these things. Too bad all you other "Christians" do. You understand, of course, that any tried-and-true f&w can prove this through the scriptures. Y'all are wrong and we're right. As can JWs and Mormons, I would hope, or their religions would have died long ago. Ain't religion fun? Here is the only definition that seems to make sense to everyone: A cult is any group that worships differently than the person speaking.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 0:58:39 GMT -5
Post by janet on Jul 30, 2007 0:58:39 GMT -5
Add to the word of God, subtract from the person and work of Jesus Christ, multiply the conditions for salvation and divide themselves from other Christians. Thank God f&w's don't do any of these things. Too bad all you other "Christians" do. You understand, of course, that any tried-and-true f&w can prove this through the scriptures. Y'all are wrong and we're right. As can JWs and Mormons, I would hope, or their religions would have died long ago. Ain't religion fun? Here is the only definition that seems to make sense to everyone: A cult is any group that worships differently than the person speaking. No that is not true. I take strong exception to what you said. I don't belong to a cult. I belong to the only right way and that is the way of truth and I try to follow truth the way truth was intended but sometimes I see others going their way and yet they say they are the only way so then I can do what they do and still be in the truth because it is the way of allways and is very true. Humm lost my breath on that one. ;D
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 0:59:50 GMT -5
Post by janet on Jul 30, 2007 0:59:50 GMT -5
Wait a second. I got lost. What did you say again? ;D
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You can get a window installed
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 5:52:33 GMT -5
Post by You can get a window installed on Jul 30, 2007 5:52:33 GMT -5
Wait a second. I got lost. What did you say again? ;D You are lost because of your condition you cannot see where you are going. You need to either pull you head out or get a window installed in your torso.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 6:27:46 GMT -5
Post by gloryintruth on Jul 30, 2007 6:27:46 GMT -5
[Someone Wrote] MORE BS RHETORIC.
I am reminded of the words of Dr Anthony Daniels, the renown author of several social commentaries, and regular contributor to the famous New York City Journal: "All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others", but which he meant that in a democracy everyone is entitled to a view, but some views have more validity than others.
I put it to the anonymous poster above, who is obviously totally incapable of comprehending an argument let alone responding to one in any meaningful capacity, that while he is entitled to his simplistic view, he ought not to subject the rest of us to his childishness. If he wants to engage in the discussion, please do so with some substance. I am more than happy to interact with serious material in a courteous fashion, refraining from making personalised attacks.
If, however, you want to simply air vulgarities, perhaps this might be better accomplished in the self-contained atmosphere of your mindspace.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 6:43:55 GMT -5
Post by gloryintruth on Jul 30, 2007 6:43:55 GMT -5
Bryan,
You have put a number of questions to me. I frankly cannot see any relevance of these questions to the issues that I have been discussing with you about the use of the term "cult". Moreover, I have still yet to see any serious interaction with my objections to the use of the term from any ex-2x2 beyond calling my comments "B.S.", which is certainly one effective approach to shutting down a debate in which a person feels they have no meaningful counterpoint to advance.
Despite not seeing the connection, I will nevertheless try to answer these questions. I do so with some hesitation, knowing that my answers will most certainly be twisted and misappropriated by some ex-2x2 posters who have little personal integrity or sense of honour in these matters.
[You Wrote] 1. Do you believe it’s possible for someone to be doing the will of God, serving God to their fullest, and be approved by God if they once professed, but quit the meetings and now attend a different Christian church?
It would depend on their attitude and motives for separating themselves from the Church, and joining themselves to another denomination. If they are full of unchristian qualities, such as the bitterness manifested by Brian, the unthinking hostility characterised by Janet, or the sense of superiority shown by Jessi who believes her theological understanding to exceed that of any other mortal, in the fellowship or without, then I would say the change leaves me suspicious.
I would not like to outright deny that any individual is a Christian, because we are all terribly flawed individuals. But I would be inclined toward a negative response to this question.
[You Wrote] 2. Are there any preachers or pastors in the world, outside of the workers ministry, who are preaching and upholding the true Gospel of Jesus Christ?
I believe so, yes. Both in the present, and certainly historically. I have already written expressing my admiration for Augustine of Hippo and Bishop Melito, both of whom I have great respect for as teachers of the gospel.
[You Wrote] 3. Do you believe someone can continue to serve God to their fullest and truly worship him as you and I do if they come into contact with the workers, but decline to be a part of the fellowship or reject the 2x2 ministry for whatever reason?
This question is difficult to answer. I will need to consider it.
[You Wrote] 4. If someone is truly seeking God with an honest and open heart, is it possible they will be lead to anywhere else besides the 2x2 fellowship?
Absolutely, yes. I have read powerful stories of Muslim conversions to Jesus Christ. But I do believe the truest expression of Christianity is manifest in the Church.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 6:57:59 GMT -5
Post by lacpastorunplugged on Jul 30, 2007 6:57:59 GMT -5
Add to the word of God, subtract from the person and work of Jesus Christ, multiply the conditions for salvation and divide themselves from other Christians. . You understand, of course, that any tried-and-true f&w can prove this through the scriptures. Y'all are wrong and we're right. As can JWs and Mormons, I would hope, or their religions would have died long ago. Ain't religion fun? No they can't prove their aberrant beliefs through the scriptures. They may be able to find some limited support, but mostly they can only spit back up what they've been fed, since individual and/or critical thinking is not an admired quality in cults/cultic groups. Karl
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 7:18:08 GMT -5
Post by gloryintruth on Jul 30, 2007 7:18:08 GMT -5
[Jessi Wrote] I'ts still all about GiT and not about Jesus . . . still with the I, me, mine, my, ("my worship?" What is "your worship?" Still defending yourself and not Christ -- Where is the love?
And right on cue, we have Jessi chiming up how her understanding of Christianity is so much the superior to anyone else's. For Jessi is the Great Lecturer on the nature of Christian belief and values, possessing as she does, virtually omniscient insight into people's souls and minds. (I am not a Reformed Christian, she insists, even though my beliefs are identical to those of Luther, Calvin, Wycliff and Zwingli and she has never been able to prove otherwise.) She never engages in proper discussion; she is incapable of recognising an argument or what to do with one, but she is full of homilies. Therefore, hosanna in the highest! We have Jessi, whom is a teacher of babes, a guide to those in darkness!
Here Jessi insists that all my comments have been about me, and not about Jesus. Despite the fact that the topic is on the use of the term "cult" in relation to the Church, and despite the fact that no one else has been making any references to Christ or the Bible, she would have us believe that we must weave such references into any topic of discussion we would tender. Such is totally absurd; extreme to the point of fundamental radicalism.
Moreover, why does Jessi place "my worship" in parenthesis as though these were words I typed. I have never referred to "my worship" as though it were a commodity on the religious market.
Furthermore, as I pointed out previously, Jessi is a hypocite when she claims I defend only myself and not the Lord Jesus Christ. To put this into sharp perspective, consider these questions: does Jessi actively defend Christ on the atheist sub-board? Does she engage with liberal theologians on other web-boards and uphold the divinity of Christ, and the traditional view of the historical Jesus? Where was Jessi on the Roman Catholicism board when I was defending the sufficiency of Christ to save us, and advancing pages and pages of original argument against the concept of Purgatory as a completely unnecessary addition detracting from the majesty of Christ? Where was Jessi a few months ago when I was defending orthodox Christianity against those who were asserting the truth of Gnosticism and the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, Judas, Peter etc?
The answer is: Jessi was\is completely absent in all cases. The fact is, Jessi is a sanctimonious woman who does not and cannot engage in any kind of apologia for Christ, let alone orthodox Christianity. The fact she has such audacity as to suggest that this is one of my failings is utterly without merit, and grossly hypocritical. Jessi, unfortunately, does not have the foggiest clue when it comes to apologetics due partly to a lack of understanding of the issues, and partly because she is so preoccupied with being theologically better than everyone else, including me.
[Jessi Wrote] So, you're right, GiT. Their "interpretation of your writings" says a lot about their character.
It says a lot about their intellectual capacity as well, Jessi. The fact you celebrate people who refuse to engage in a discussion on a very important issue speaks volumes. You have lost all credibility when you encourage people whose sum total response to a serious post is, "More BS rhetoric from GIT". If you think this is a convincing presentation, or is a good way to demonstrate truth, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken.
Moreover, how else am I to refer to my own posts on this messageboard? Do not be so foolish, Jessi. Self-referential comments, pointing people to what one has actually written, is not a species of self-glorification. You have done it in the past to get people to respond to your comments, and I likewise do it often because few ex-2x2s seem actually capable of making a counterpoint, or doing anything more than spewing reactionary hatred without reason and without content.
[Jessi Wrote] They are not deceived, it appears.
You mean, they think the fellowship is a cult, just like you think it is a cult, and as your opinion defines the world, it must be right. You are your own highest authority, Jessi, which is why you applaud ignorance and take delight in unscholarly individuals spewing puerile commentary which even an adolescent high school student would be ashamed to be identified with.
Neither Luther, nor Calvin would have responded as you have. You like to think of yourself as the Reformed of the Reformed, yet you do not even follow the example set by the Reformers when it comes to discussing truth.
[Jessi Wrote] They are most likely some of those elect exes and there are plenty of F&W still in who are discerning enough to pick out the false teacher when they see one (there is just a lot at stake in their leaving).
A lot of unsubstantiated claptrap from our resident omniscient theologian, Jessi, who, like Father Christmas, sees us when we are naughty, and when we are nice, and has written a list of the saved and the damned, and has no need to check it twice.
[Jessi Wrote] False teachers are to be treated differently. Jesus called them on the carpet for not being able to see themselves as the sinners they were (publican/pharisee in the temple praying). They thought they were higher than everyone else.
Just as you think you are miles higher than I (and a lot of other people). You flatter yourself if you think you are totally dissimilar from the Pharisees, Jessi.
In conclusion.
Hence, on full display we see Jessi's modus di operandi of engagement in the issues - personal attack on people's faith, motives, salvation etc.
Be not decieved! Although she is not as obvious as Brad, she nevertheless subsists on the same meat; and she produces precisely the same extremism and dogmatism (Jessi believes, like Brad, that no one in the fellowship is saved, irrespective of their beliefs or personal experiences). This is Jessi's contribution: pure, subjective assault.
A couple of months ago I wearied of Jessi telling me what my heart condition was, and my standing before God, and what I believed. It seems she has not changed one whit.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 8:17:45 GMT -5
Post by and thus on Jul 30, 2007 8:17:45 GMT -5
and pleased with himself thus, GIT returns to the hole from which he came and resumes abusing himself.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 8:40:47 GMT -5
Post by amazed on Jul 30, 2007 8:40:47 GMT -5
I should have known better than to hope that my question would help lay to rest any of the cult talk. I am an ex but do not believe that the F&Ws are cult members. I do believe that not all those "in charge" are doing what is best for the members or what is Biblically correct, however I don't think "cult" is an accurate description.
I have enjoyed reading gloryintruth's posts, they are well thought out, articulate and thought provoking. I do hope that you will continue and not be driven off by the many nasty things that are said on this board. I know I have to take long breaks in between short times of reading and posting.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 12:33:47 GMT -5
Post by diet coke on Jul 30, 2007 12:33:47 GMT -5
No they can't prove their aberrant beliefs through the scriptures. They may be able to find some limited support, but mostly they can only spit back up what they've been fed, since individual and/or critical thinking is not an admired quality in cults/cultic groups. Karl Karl, I've listened to these "proofs" for 35 years of professing. Of course we can prove it, very convincingly, too. I've listened to equally valid proofs of other religious beliefs for the last two years. I've even read alternative proofs on this board, of how one interpretation of scripture can be the "only right one". I humbly submit that ALL "proofs" are exactly as you say...search and regurgitation of limited support in the scripture (to the exclusion, of course, of other portions of scripture that "prove" otherwise). We can prove bloody well anything we want using the Bible, if we accept every word as holy and ignore the contradictory opinions written therein.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 14:21:03 GMT -5
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jul 30, 2007 14:21:03 GMT -5
Here's my closeminded opinion.
I dont know about it being a cult, but I do believe it is counterfeit Christianity.
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Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 14:39:02 GMT -5
Post by _ on Jul 30, 2007 14:39:02 GMT -5
These questions are in response to your statement in which you said, I hence reject the much maligned "exclusivity" about which so much as been written by ex-2x2s.
Their attitude is not important to the question if it's possible or not...
Could you elaborate on the belief "the truest expression of Christianity is manifest in the Church"?
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 15:24:11 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 30, 2007 15:24:11 GMT -5
I don't refer to the 2x2s group as a cult... however, I can see that it contains a no. of cultic elements.
You will not find any articles on TTT calling it a cult.
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 15:42:48 GMT -5
Post by Help on Jul 30, 2007 15:42:48 GMT -5
I read the list of attrrributes of a cult. Christianity seems to tick many of the boxes. Is Christianity a cult? Was the early church a cult? Are we all under the control of a cult? If so how do I get out?
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 16:33:59 GMT -5
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jul 30, 2007 16:33:59 GMT -5
I believe it was Walter Martin (or something like that) who wrote "The Kingdom of Cults" who defined a cult as.....
A group of people gathered around someone’s misinterpretation of the Bible
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Cult?
Jul 30, 2007 17:40:46 GMT -5
Post by janet on Jul 30, 2007 17:40:46 GMT -5
I use to not believe that it was a cult. Now I am not sure anymore. Reason: The strong insistence to deny every aspect of its origins coupled with the intense need to have everyone follow what the workers tell them, to the point of even avoiding the review of other scriptural studies. They are worldly. Cult characteristics I believe.
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