_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Jul 27, 2007 18:43:54 GMT -5
A guest named Katie made a post regarding leaflets on convention grounds... I am going to reply to her post below... Well, there are 3 threads open about the leaflets, and not a single thread is sticking to the subject, so I just picked one! Are you David's daughter by chance? Let me be clear, that I personally would never do it... nor would I label someone else doing it as a "cool thing to do"... Just as an ex-smoker might be compelled to help his former brethren quit smoking... so to might an former member of the fellowship be compelled to share information regarding the history and doctrines of the fellowship... Did you ever consider that perhaps the reason we are "targeting" (your word, not mine) the Friends and Workers fellowship is due to our direct relationship to the fellowship? As for the other churches you've listed... there are plenty of people who have had direct relationships to those churches who are successfully "targeting" them without needing our help. What I cannot grasp is how you cannot see the connection to former members who have left the church and the desire some of these people might have to help those still in the church. Perhaps the people are motivated out of love and have a deep desire to share the true history of the fellowship with their former brethren.... For example, I did not find out the true history until the Fall of 2000... Do you judge a book by its cover, or do you judge it after reading all the pages? We are perceived as bitter and unwilling enemies of the truth... the only thing I take issue with is the likes of Brad who helps to further distort what "we" stand for (we being those who want to reach out to our former brethren)... What would you do if a friend of yours was taught from birth and believed with all their heart that the world was flat? Would you be motivated to tell them the truth and show them evidence that disproves their belief? Or would you allow them to carry on in their belief which they dearly loved and respected their wish to believe something that was totally false? As a friend, what would you do?
|
|
|
Post by Reply 2 on Jul 27, 2007 21:37:23 GMT -5
And here is my reply, copied from that thread: I have a couple questions for those of you who think this is a cool thing to do... WHY are you doing it??? I'm not. Motivations probably vary. Everything from "revenge" to "spreading the Gospel" and everything in-between. Many in Truth have no family outside. The only family they have is in Truth. This is why it's still a part of a lot of people. Some feel that spreading the Gospel is a calling. They can't let it go. Spreading the Gospel doesn't mean someone can't move on with their life. Passing out notes at convention does not always mean that the note passer hasn't found peace and satisfaction. They won't. More than half of my 2x2 relatives have avoided me like the plague since I (quietly) left, despite my attempts to re-befriend them. This has its origins in the 80's, when we were told continuously by the workers that those who had left had been led astray by false doctrine and that if we listened to what they said we would be led astray by this contagiously poisonous false doctrine. We avoided them, foolishly thinking our souls depended on it. It is unlikely they'll ask. Jesus often taught before he was asked a question and when he charged believers with spreading the Gospel he said nothing about waiting to be asked. Trust me when I say that there are some others around you who do not share your sentiments. I'm sorry you feel harassed. When I was handed and read my first letter, I felt harassed, maybe even violated. With time though, I came to understand what I'd received. I've been thankful ever since. Maybe they do target other religions. Maybe they target this religion because they are intimately familiar with the unscriptural teachings in it. Maybe they don't have time to target other religions. First, these groups are already targeted by some people. Second, the F&W have been known to report people to the police. I'm sure the people handing out these notes are aware of this. I wonder what kind of people said this about Jesus. Perhaps this was one of the justifications they told themselves to pardon themselves for putting him to death. Maybe because Jesus has charged us with spreading the Gospel. Actually, they have been known to get particularly nasty at times, and have even been known to prosecute these people. LOL! Oh my! I'm feeling sorry for you right now. You are a real nut. You can call me whatever you want. Given the person you've demonstrated yourself to be, I will take it as a compliment. You may feel this way but know that others do not agree. I, for one, am thankful for the day when someone cared enough to show me who Jesus really is, and give me the push I needed to look to God for help freeing myself from the bondage I was in. To those of you who feel moved to spread the TRUE GOSPEL: God Bless You, Thank You, And may God Continue to Guide Your Activities!
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 27, 2007 21:55:32 GMT -5
Katie's questions reminded me of some analogies I have collected. Here's one. I don't have the author's name. If anyone here recognizes that they wrote it, please feel free to take credit. I thought it might help explain the reason the exes care enough to warn others by various methods.
Let's just say that Mom and Dad had trusted a certain firm with their money that they had squirreled away bit by bit, and chosen the "safest" place that there was by believing this firms claims that they were the only ones never to lose anyones money, as they were the only ones with the inside track to the world's financial markets. They faithfully watched the papers and the market reports daily, added more money, and rolled over c.d.'s as they matured. So frugally did they live, as money is the root of all evil. One day their son came over with the newspaper, and on the front page, was the headline that this firm was busted. Evidently, the newer management realized what they could get away with, as they coasted along on the reputation of the firm. They had gotten reckless, and decided to use their clients money without telling them, as after all, they were the financial experts right? Well of course they eventually got caught. Their response to their son was, "That's lies! Our accounts have been doing very well! We have all these statements to prove it! We know those people would never scam us, we trust them! As time plays out and more evidence surfaces, it is obvious to almost everyone that the money is long gone. Mom and Dad still refuse to accept that they are financially bankrupt. They would have too much to face if they accepted this fact. Number one would be their complete lack of security and identity, followed by realizing that life as they know it would change completely. Painfully, they would become aware of the fact that, as they cannot afford their previous lifestyle, that they would also lose the friends that went with it. I have to say that their pride would make it almost unbearable! The fact that they, who had so much, or thought they did, let people play them for a fool. How could they face anyone, especially their family and friends that had previously inquired. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder, if this were you would you try to warn anyone else?
Do you think you might try to show people how to safeguard against this happening to them?
Do you think you would just go on with your life in a week or two as if nothing happened?
Do you think it would be natural to meet with other investors who were swindled by this firm to compare notes support each other?
Would you condemn them as bitter and malicious?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 27, 2007 22:10:34 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 27, 2007 22:20:30 GMT -5
The Painting Analogy: Suppose you paid dearly for a painting represented to be an original by a world famous artist. Unfortunately, you later find out that it had not been painted by that particular artist, after all—that it is a fake by an unknown artist. You have been defrauded by the art dealer you purchased it from. Yes, you still have a painting--but now, you don’t know it’s value. Since there is no doubt that it is not in the class of paintings by famous well known artists, it is demoted to the class with unknown artists. Since the painting is not a genuine, original by a well known artist, it is not worth what you paid for it. You must now reappraise and re-evaluate the painting, and decide what you are going to do with it. Will you keep it, or let it go? Would you want to warn your friends (especially your FRIENDS) and even strangers against this crooked art dealer?
This is the situation many of the friends find themselves in when they learn that William Irvine started this 2x2 ministry and church about 100 years ago. They feel like the props have been knocked out from under them. The main overriding reason some bought into the 2x2 belief system was because they were told/taught and believed it was the ONLY genuine apostolic New Testament church on earth today. Many have remained in this fellowship primarily because (1) they believe it is of apostolic succession, and (2) they fear a lost eternity if they don't continue in it.
But, like the painting, the 2x2 church turned out to be a fake/fraud. The church and fellowship they bought into is not what it’s cracked up to be. It is not of apostolic succession, and did not originate in the New Testament, and it has for a founder, not Jesus or God, but a fallible human man, like other churches do. It's not the bill of goods they were sold at all—not the original, authentic, genuine NT church of Jesus. With the discovery of William Irvine, it no longer merits an elevated status above other churches—it is demoted to the class of churches with founders.
When a person has accepted the fact that Wm Irvine started the 2x2 ministry and church, and that it didn’t exist in a continuous line from the New Testament apostles, certain questions naturally come to mind. This additional knowledge calls for a serious reevaluation, and a possible realignment or change in spiritual perspective and beliefs. It is only normal to wonder, to struggle with a number of complex questions. The lives of many friends are significantly altered by the way they answer these questions:
* What is the value of this church? * Does this knowledge change anything? * What difference does it make that this fellowship has a founder? * Does having a founder contradict any of my other spiritual beliefs? * How can this fellowship be God's only true way, when it has a human founder? * What reasons do you have for believing it is God’s only way? * Is there a good basis in the Bible for regarding it as God's ONLY way to Heaven? * Is it the closest way to the New Testament church and ministry? * How is this church and ministry superior to other churches and ministers? * How is the 2x2 way unique? * Where do I go from here?
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 27, 2007 22:46:49 GMT -5
The Pearl of Great Price Analogy
The analogy that I've thought about for some time now is that when we professed we were "selling all" and buying a field that contains a "treasure" or "the pearl of great price." Only to find out that the treasure or pearl (pick your verse in Mat. 24) wasn't really the one of great price -- it was a man-made imitation. A forgery. Now we weren't told this at the beginning; we were told that it was the real thing and we believed those who told us. And we "sold all." For some of us that meant effectively abandoning our natural families because they were still in "worldly religions." But we believed those who told us that this treasure was the real thing from God.
Then we find out that some man named William Irvine made this treasure. He followed a pattern partially from the Faith Mission and partially of his own interpretation and he MADE it with his own two hands to look like what he believed the REAL treasure would look like. Later some of his followers helped reshape it a bit because they themselves had their own ideas about what the REAL treasure looked like. So the treasure that we all bought was not the real one from God, but the replica made by these men. This fact was kept from those who bought for many decades, though some knew but apparently agreed that it was "close enough" and did not fuss.
Later when we ask some of those who had represented the treasure as having been the real thing from God, they said "well, it's just like the real thing. That's what we MEANT. Sorry that you thought we were saying that it WAS the real thing. So, since it's just like the real thing, everything is dandy and why be bothered? After all, nobody else has made anything even close."
If this scenario happened to even the most hearty professing person in a retail store with some merchandise, for example, I bet they'd be none too happy. Probably call the Better Business Bureau.
But as we heard, we worship "in spirit and in truth", NOT in a form.
By Bill Greenley
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2007 5:44:58 GMT -5
The analogy to art is good. Consider how galleries, museums and collectors prize the works of great artists. A Vermeer, for instance, is worth tens of millions. If you should find the painting to be a forgery you sell it for the frame. Consider how Van Meegeren was able to fool the Nazis with his fake Vermeer’s. Prized one minute, worthless the next, despite being proclaimed masterpieces by scholars. quote "... world’s most preëminent art experts .... commented when first seeing the “discovered” fake ... Vermeer ....“What we have here is a — I am inclined to say THE masterpiece of Johannes Vermeer.”
But what if it is a good painting on the sole basis of its artistic merit? This simply doesn’t matter in the art world: worth is judged by authorship, and worth is not the same as merit.
People are taken up with the artist. Did Vermeer really use a “camera obscura”? Did he have a mistress? Was she the girl with the pearl necklace? People on art tours ooh! and ah! over famous works like the Night Watchmen – largely because it was Rembrandt’s, and he was famous, and the picture is iconic (and very large!) But this painting is a dead work. Not a lot of people understand Vermeer’s light or brushwork, for instance – they appreciate him as a famous man who painted famous pictures.
It’s the same with religion. God proves nothing, nor does He impress, by human standards.
This business of people leaving the Truth because they “head about Irvine.” The implication is they joined us because of some historical assumption, rather being moved by the Gospel. They would be happy with the Catholics who "prove" a direct line to Jesus.
We all have to judge the painting by its merits - not by its frame, not by its gallery, not by its history, nor even by its artist. And likewise, we want our Gospel to be judged on its own merit.
|
|
|
Post by Berts gospel on Jul 28, 2007 8:13:31 GMT -5
Are you then able to clearly present your gospel Bert in a way that is not ambiguous? I would really like to hear it told straight and complete, from beginning to end.
Would you please do that for us?
Thank you.
|
|
|
Post by las logged out on Jul 28, 2007 10:47:54 GMT -5
A guest named Katie made a post regarding leaflets on convention grounds... I am going to reply to her post below... Well, there are 3 threads open about the leaflets, and not a single thread is sticking to the subject, so I just picked one! Are you David's daughter by chance? Let me be clear, that I personally would never do it... nor would I label someone else doing it as a "cool thing to do"... Just as an ex-smoker might be compelled to help his former brethren quit smoking... so to might an former member of the fellowship be compelled to share information regarding the history and doctrines of the fellowship... Did you ever consider that perhaps the reason we are "targeting" (your word, not mine) the Friends and Workers fellowship is due to our direct relationship to the fellowship? As for the other churches you've listed... there are plenty of people who have had direct relationships to those churches who are successfully "targeting" them without needing our help. What I cannot grasp is how you cannot see the connection to former members who have left the church and the desire some of these people might have to help those still in the church. Perhaps the people are motivated out of love and have a deep desire to share the true history of the fellowship with their former brethren.... For example, I did not find out the true history until the Fall of 2000... Do you judge a book by its cover, or do you judge it after reading all the pages? We are perceived as bitter and unwilling enemies of the truth... the only thing I take issue with is the likes of Brad who helps to further distort what "we" stand for (we being those who want to reach out to our former brethren)... What would you do if a friend of yours was taught from birth and believed with all their heart that the world was flat? Would you be motivated to tell them the truth and show them evidence that disproves their belief? Or would you allow them to carry on in their belief which they dearly loved and respected their wish to believe something that was totally false? As a friend, what would you do? Like the Dr. said as long as there is guys like you there will always be guys like me...expose those of cult groups
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Jul 28, 2007 19:14:14 GMT -5
Rob O wrote this analogy: THE BOX
Imagine living all your life within a little box. Everything you know is defined by the walls of that box. You are very comfortable around the people inside that box. You are all convinced that whatever God does, surely all of you inside the box will be the first to know about it. And in fact, talk of God doing anything outside the box is discouraged because everyone inside knows that they are God's people and life inside the box is what it's all about.
You know that there are people outside the box but you're not quite sure what they're about. The walls of the box prevent you from really understanding those other people and that's a good thing because if you got to understand those outside, well, you might just want to leave the box, and that would be really dangerous because when Jesus returns, He's only coming back to pick up that box and then burn up everybody else. You don't want to be outside the box when Jesus returns.
But then what happens when God opens the top just a little bit and you're only one that sees it. It's really bright outside and looks scary. Too many new things to consider. But you build up the courage and while everyone is screaming at you not to look outside you gently poke your nose out and take a sniff of the air. Hey! It smells okay! "Of course" yell all the other people "But it will kill you if you breathe it in long enough."
Meanwhile you're looking out through the gap and things look pretty interesting. So you tentatively slip outside but keep a tight hold on the box because you don't want to fall off the top and lose out. But hey! It's really scary out here and at the same time it's a bit exhilarating! There are so many amazing things to see and people start coming up and talking to you and they wonder what you're doing. You explain to them that you've been living in that there box and you're just having a look at what's outside. Some people tell you that they've seen the box and they know that others live inside and never come out. They think that's a pretty strange way to live because it's clear to them that not much would happen inside that little box.
But anyway you start taking some steps...one...two...three.. but what's this? It hasn't killed you after all! but oh no! The thought jumps in your head that Jesus might come back while you're outside the box. You feel really afraid for a bit but then you look around and see all this amazing stuff and lovely people. Some of them even claim to know God! You spend some time talking with these people and you discover that maybe they do know God. They seem to act like they know Him.
Time slips by and you go on all sorts of amazing adventures and learn heaps of new things and have the best time with people you'd have never met if you'd stayed in the box. Meanwhile you discover that you still know God and that He didn't leave you when you stepped outside the box. In fact, if you're honest, you admit that you probably know more about God now then you ever did the whole time you were in the box. It seems like now, your life is just one big adventure with God instead of just saying and doing things inside the box that other people inside the box say and do as well.
So you discover that God is doing many different and amazing things and you admit that you'd never have found out about them if you'd stayed inside. In fact, when you really stop to think about it, you wonder why you stayed there as long as you did, and then eventually you ask yourself "What could possibly get me back in that box?" And you realise the answer is....nothing!
But then you remember there's a lot of people in that box that you care about. So you try and call out to them and try to explain how great it is outside and that God is doing so much more than we ever thought possible. But the people inside the box just don't want to know. Many of them ignore you, and others say you're lying and others pretend you don't exist anymore.
Most of them go on about their daily box lives as if you're just some annoying thing in their imagination. Really! The thought of it! Life outside the box! HUH! You might as well believe that people can live underwater without an oxygen tank. Some even make strange claims like, "I don't know to step outside the box to know that everybody out there is wrong."
But very, very occasionally, as long as you're patient and gentle and caring, someone inside the box asks a genuine question. They really want to know what life is like outside the box. So you tell them and share with them how great God has been.
And even more rarely one of them asks if you'll give them a hand because they want to get out of the box too. So you help them out, and they weep when they see how beautiful and amazing and wonderful and big that God really is! And after you've helped just one person out, you realise that this is what life is about! It's not about living your own way and doing whatever you want to do. It's all about helping other people get out of the boxes they're in.
|
|