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Post by Will on Jul 24, 2007 14:29:28 GMT -5
I guess this is to Bert. Been reading your posts lately and though I'm dense, I'm thinking I understand your theme. Please tell me if this is it:
Main goal is to live a life pleasing to God. That would include worshipping in the format that is pleasing to God and through a ministry that is most pleasing to God. Since worship in the New Testament appears to have been in homes, the inferrence is that home-based worships are His intention and therefore that is what pleases Him. Similarly, since the ministry in the New Testament appears to have been itinerant and in pairs, then that must been God's intent and therefore what pleases Him. Whereas no explicit instruction is given to do these things, one can infer that these are what please God since this is present in the NT.
Is this an accurate desription of the basis of your belief?
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Post by Bump on Jul 26, 2007 3:09:34 GMT -5
Bump
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2007 7:52:32 GMT -5
Sorry Will, I missed this thread! We don't just guess that because Jesus met in the home we ought to do the same - the scripture goes into some detail about the role of the sanctuary and the sacred space in both covenants. And the same for the ministry. It isn't just mentioned in Matthew 10, but is the background to the entire New Testament.
But you can have a religion with both home service and an itinerate ministry and I may not believe in it. I have been to JW home services for instance, and I did not feel it was from God. I guess we have to make up our own minds about what you feel are the important identifiers. Some feel the identifiers are individuals with qualities such as Mother Teresa had, or churches like the Salvation Army.
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Post by Will on Jul 26, 2007 8:23:54 GMT -5
Thanks for replying Bert. Next question.
First let me relate a standard "paradigm" "joke". A newlywed couple has their first holiday dinner with and the husband asks his wife why she cut both ends off the baked ham. She replied, "I don't really know. My mom always did it that way. I guess it lets the meat juices out or something." Later they are at her folks and ask her mom why she cuts the ends off the ham to bake. She replies, "My mom always baked her hams that way. I just assumed that is how you bake a ham." Later they are at the grandmother's home and repeat the question. The newleywed's grandmother replies, "I cut the ends off my ham to bake them because they didn't fit in my baking dish otherwise."
So, Bert, what are the chances that an itinerant ministry and home meetings are like the grandmother's ham dish? In the days of the New Testament were they just the expedient things to do? However, we now look back and ascribe more significance to them than was the intent; that they weren't core components to the message or the religion? The message is Jesus, His love for us and our love for others.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2007 8:35:37 GMT -5
We have been working on a new web site which explores these issues. For the issue of the home service vs. the earthly tabernacle, for instance, we looked at every single reference in the New Testament. The same was done for the ministry vs the priesthood, Sacred Sites, Sacred Relics, Sacred Symbols, Divine Service, Church name, Law, Sabbath and State Religions.
But the Gospel itself doesn't really work like this. You have to make up your mind about whether it is from God, or not. That baked ham must either taste like something from heaven, or just imitation.
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Post by Will on Jul 26, 2007 9:05:15 GMT -5
In the "baked ham" analogy, my point was to separate the "Ham" from the "baking dish".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2007 9:10:14 GMT -5
I get what you are saying. But my point is that you have to taste something to know if its right. Your points are valid and good. Although we have done these web sites, I am sure there are people in my church who would not have considered the arguments. They base their feelings on the taste.
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Post by janet on Jul 26, 2007 9:11:52 GMT -5
We have been working on a new web site which explores these issues. For the issue of the home service vs. the earthly tabernacle, for instance, we looked at every single reference in the New Testament. The same was done for the ministry vs the priesthood, Sacred Sites, Sacred Relics, Sacred Symbols, Divine Service, Church name, Law, Sabbath and State Religions. But the Gospel itself doesn't really work like this. You have to make up your mind about whether it is from God, or not. That baked ham must either taste like something from heaven, or just imitation. You mean like when one reads the garbage on your websites they can taste the rotten ham.
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Post by John on Jul 26, 2007 17:30:08 GMT -5
Bert has no idea what his theme is.
He has however been subjected to many years brainwashing in the sect known as the 2x2s which teaches people like Bert their basic fundamenal truth that the 2x2 system is the only way to heaven because a) it is from the beginning, b) the ministry is based on the principles of Mathew 10 and c) Jesus taught that the only true way to worship is in the home. None of these are actually true but then truth doesn't play a major role in 2x2 thinking any more than it does in the thinking of the Flat Earth Society.
Unlike may of those in fellowship with him, Bert has had the benefit of discussing these issues with those who know differently to the extent that he may not now be quite as brainwashed as he once was. However having defended the 2x2 system so vehemently for so long, he can't quite face losing the credibility any acknowledgement of the error of his ways would now bring. It takes a big man to act small.
I get the feeling that it wouldn't matter what system Bert had been brainwashed into, he'd be just as committed to spending his evenings under the duvet with a torch searching the scritpures for a biblical basis for his beliefs. Its just an accident of birth that he's here defending the 2x2 system - it cold just as easily be something else - so don't take him too seriously.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 26, 2007 17:43:23 GMT -5
You mean like when one reads the garbage on your websites they can taste the rotten ham. Brad's following is growing. Somebody keeping an eye on all the guns in Oregon?
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Post by janet on Jul 26, 2007 21:21:42 GMT -5
You mean like when one reads the garbage on your websites they can taste the rotten ham. Brad's following is growing. Somebody keeping an eye on all the guns in Oregon? AW did tweety get bothered. Poor you. I hope you Don't HAVE A COW MAN ;D
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Post by Brad Lewis on Jul 26, 2007 23:10:41 GMT -5
I would love to go to conventions and record them all. A video of the workesr would go over GREAT on U-tube I hope they have barfing bags. Their rhetoric does make me sick. The testimonies are sooo funny too. Are you going to give your testomony Nathan? Brad
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Post by Brad Lewis on Jul 26, 2007 23:17:51 GMT -5
Oooh Nathan. An escort? I didn't know the workers had escorts nowadays. Brad
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Post by Will on Jul 27, 2007 10:53:13 GMT -5
Ever heard of the DISC personality assessment? One of several flavors of this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISC_assessmentWant to be Bert is "high S/C"? Actually, so am I. I can see that as being a reason is professed for 20 years.
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Post by janet on Jul 27, 2007 11:03:38 GMT -5
I would love to go to conventions and record them all. A video of the workesr would go over GREAT on U-tube I hope they have barfing bags. Their rhetoric does make me sick. The testimonies are sooo funny too. Are you going to give your testomony Nathan? Brad Don't be too surprised if the friends or workers escort you off the convention grounds.Thats a shame. You mean to say that the true preachers of the gospel would deny a poor hurting lost soul from a chance to be renewed? Humm. Why would true Christians turn someone away? Ok Ok that was a trick answer and you really did not mean it right? Humm Is there something wrong with that picture? I Think So.
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Post by Will on Jul 27, 2007 11:31:09 GMT -5
Ever heard of the DISC personality assessment? One of several flavors of this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISC_assessmentWant to be Bert is "high S/C"? Actually, so am I. I can see that as being a reason is professed for 20 years. Yikes. Can't type today. Last line should read. Want to bet that Bert is a "High S/C"? Actually, so am I. I can see that as being a reason I professed for 20 years.
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need a little common sense
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Post by need a little common sense on Jul 27, 2007 11:49:14 GMT -5
renewed? Humm. Why would true Christians turn someone away? In Brad's case, I think it would be done to protect the convention attendees from Brad's hate. It might also be done to protect Brad from himself. I don't think there are any Christians who would want a hate-filled lunatic to interrupt their worshipping regardless of their affiliation.
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