|
Post by Let Me Get This on Jul 20, 2007 17:49:41 GMT -5
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 [shadow=red,left,300][/shadow]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
So then let me get this straight.
The all loving, all knowing God who sent Himself to Die for our Failures such that we would be accepted by Him if we believe in Him does this?
God sends a person who is confused or has trouble believing strong delusions to keep them confused so they will surely be lost. Where is the love in that?
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jul 20, 2007 20:22:24 GMT -5
I think it's helpful to use the source. And then to read a little before and a little after, too. Helps a little.
[b]II thess 2:10 + 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [/b][/color]
It is only within satan's power to decieve the unsaved. Elect who have not yet been saved must be included. But they are chosen and will ultimately prevail the wicked one.
They perish because they believe satan.
Strong delusion: God uses satan, the antichrist to delude the ones who love sin and hate the truth. satan's deluding influences are one of the ways God uses to effect judgement on these (I Kings 22:19-23).
Those who continue to reject the truth will be judged by the instruments at God's disposal (satan and the antichrist) and the results of their own sin. satan is God's devil. He made him. He uses him--For His glory.
He said to Pharaoh, "For this purpose I have raised you up"(Ex 9:16). What purpose? To get the glory over Pharaoh, to show his power -- so that God's people would go out and glorify him and tell His Name to all the nations.
God has many more attributes than love. He IS love (I Jn 4:8) So love encompasses, then, all His attributes that make up what is called Love. He is Righteous and Just and Good and Compassionate and Loving and Severe.
Behold, the goodness and the severity of God . . . Rom 11:22.
He is severe. But for His severity . . . His Son would not have had to die for the sins of His people.
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
|
|
|
Post by whatisright on Jul 20, 2007 20:34:54 GMT -5
Are you a 2x2 JESSI?
|
|
|
Post by agreed on Jul 20, 2007 20:45:26 GMT -5
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 [shadow=red,left,300][/shadow]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. So then let me get this straight. The all loving, all knowing God who sent Himself to Die for our Failures such that we would be accepted by Him if we believe in Him does this? God sends a person who is confused or has trouble believing strong delusions to keep them confused so they will surely be lost. Where is the love in that? This is not the action of a loving God. No matter how you twist it. This is like a parent who finds a child in trouble but instead of helping the child they hire some evil person to cause them more problems. And the point of more problems is so they will end up in Hell. But I guess if you think an all powerful being sending delusions upon mere mortals is a show of love - then this is a god of love. Probably the same love as the God who had His people kill all the males and non-virgins and then do as they wish with the virgins. Good love.
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jul 20, 2007 21:04:45 GMT -5
I was. I am not now. Now, I am a Christian. Christ's Forever, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jul 20, 2007 21:08:33 GMT -5
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 [shadow=red,left,300][/shadow]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. So then let me get this straight. The all loving, all knowing God who sent Himself to Die for our Failures such that we would be accepted by Him if we believe in Him does this? God sends a person who is confused or has trouble believing strong delusions to keep them confused so they will surely be lost. Where is the love in that? This is not the action of a loving God. No matter how you twist it. This is like a parent who finds a child in trouble but instead of helping the child they hire some evil person to cause them more problems. And the point of more problems is so they will end up in Hell. But I guess if you think an all powerful being sending delusions upon mere mortals is a show of love - then this is a god of love. Probably the same love as the God who had His people kill all the males and non-virgins and then do as they wish with the virgins. Good love. You read only what you want to read into it. There is Jesus Christ in this story. Everywhere. But give sources. Where do you find it and give chapter and verse. It's helpful for a discussion. But I wonder if you really want a discussion. Seems you really just want to bash God. Good Providence. Christ's Forever, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by Good Question on Jul 21, 2007 1:31:32 GMT -5
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 [shadow=red,left,300][/shadow]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. So then let me get this straight. The all loving, all knowing God who sent Himself to Die for our Failures such that we would be accepted by Him if we believe in Him does this? God sends a person who is confused or has trouble believing strong delusions to keep them confused so they will surely be lost. Where is the love in that? This is not the action of a loving God. No matter how you twist it. This is like a parent who finds a child in trouble but instead of helping the child they hire some evil person to cause them more problems. And the point of more problems is so they will end up in Hell. But I guess if you think an all powerful being sending delusions upon mere mortals is a show of love - then this is a god of love. Probably the same love as the God who had His people kill all the males and non-virgins and then do as they wish with the virgins. Good love. Yes i agree, no matter how you twist, it seems strange. Analogy OK so your child is a crack head. Steals and robs people for the habit. Love the high of Crack. So the Crack is like the Devil and the Sins loved to obtain the intoxicating effect of the Crack. So then the parent says to the the child, others do crack too so I guess it is ok for you to hang out with crack heads. -- This is exactly the same premise that Jessi put forth with one exception. Add some mystical belief in an Omniscient all Loving all knowing God. Sorry this does not equate. If God is Omniscient then why would God not remove the vale of Sin from the Crack heads mind and heart such that they would want to detox. God has the power. Since Carnal Sin is like a toxicant to the senses of worldly pleasure, why would God continue to send delusions to keep them in Sin. God has the power to remove delusions. A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception So then in short God is sending or allowing False belief to make sure one fails unto death. As it is said: No very loving for God
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jul 21, 2007 8:40:18 GMT -5
Speaking of crack . . . I have a brother who I believe is addicted to crack. He jumps from one topic to another like a manic hobo hopping trains. Picture it. That's my Vinnie.
I love him and I want to help him -- but I can't . . . only pray. Because God has not yet opened his heart to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The blackness of man's heart is why God sent His Son. I and my brother alike have deceitful hearts. But His, because of his unbelief, beats closer with every beat of his sick heart . . . to death and hell. My brother, from the same womb.
My brother, who I built teepees with . . . who saved robins with me . . . played "forts" and "cowboys and indians" and "guns" with me. Who rode horses with me and who taught me how to milk cows and showed me his strong, young arms and muscles . . . who I looked up to . . . and ran from when he was angry . . . and tried to comfort when he was sad . . . who I cried for when he ran away from home -- My brother.
You remind me of my brother, Vinnie.
He will not come. He will not be comforted by the attributes of God, especially the severity of God, because he doesn't want to face his own sin. It is a terrible thing to look at, to compare with the Holy Law of God and know that one cannot possibly fulfill it . . .
Only one ever did. Jesus Christ. He's the only one who can help my brother, Vinnie, and He's the only one who can help you.
I love you, lost soul . . . as I love my brother. May God, in His Goodness and His Severity, give you ears to hear and eyes to see.
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
|
|
|
Post by what ever on Jul 21, 2007 9:45:15 GMT -5
Speaking of crack . . . I have a brother who I believe is addicted to crack. He jumps from one topic to another like a manic hobo hopping trains. Picture it. That's my Vinnie. I love him and I want to help him -- but I can't . . . only pray. Because God has not yet opened his heart to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The blackness of man's heart is why God sent His Son. I and my brother alike have deceitful hearts. But His, because of his unbelief, beats closer with every beat of his sick heart . . . to death and hell. My brother, from the same womb. My brother, who I built teepees with . . . who saved robins with me . . . played "forts" and "cowboys and indians" and "guns" with me. Who rode horses with me and who taught me how to milk cows and showed me his strong, young arms and muscles . . . who I looked up to . . . and ran from when he was angry . . . and tried to comfort when he was sad . . . who I cried for when he ran away from home -- My brother. You remind me of my brother, Vinnie. He will not come. He will not be comforted by the attributes of God, especially the severity of God, because he doesn't want to face his own sin. It is a terrible thing to look at, to compare with the Holy Law of God and know that one cannot possibly fulfill it . . . Only one ever did. Jesus Christ. He's the only one who can help my brother, Vinnie, and He's the only one who can help you. I love you, lost soul . . . as I love my brother. May God, in His Goodness and His Severity, give you ears to hear and eyes to see. Christ's Forever, Jessi Of all the presumtious pompous arrogance.
|
|
|
Post by Yea on Jul 21, 2007 12:12:37 GMT -5
Speaking of crack . . . I have a brother who I believe is addicted to crack. He jumps from one topic to another like a manic hobo hopping trains. Picture it. That's my Vinnie. I love him and I want to help him -- but I can't . . . only pray. Because God has not yet opened his heart to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The blackness of man's heart is why God sent His Son. I and my brother alike have deceitful hearts. But His, because of his unbelief, beats closer with every beat of his sick heart . . . to death and hell. My brother, from the same womb. My brother, who I built teepees with . . . who saved robins with me . . . played "forts" and "cowboys and indians" and "guns" with me. Who rode horses with me and who taught me how to milk cows and showed me his strong, young arms and muscles . . . who I looked up to . . . and ran from when he was angry . . . and tried to comfort when he was sad . . . who I cried for when he ran away from home -- My brother. You remind me of my brother, Vinnie. He will not come. He will not be comforted by the attributes of God, especially the severity of God, because he doesn't want to face his own sin. It is a terrible thing to look at, to compare with the Holy Law of God and know that one cannot possibly fulfill it . . . Only one ever did. Jesus Christ. He's the only one who can help my brother, Vinnie, and He's the only one who can help you. I love you, lost soul . . . as I love my brother. May God, in His Goodness and His Severity, give you ears to hear and eyes to see. Christ's Forever, Jessi Of all the presumtious pompous arrogance. I agree presumtious pompous arrogance since he does not even know who "YOU" is.
|
|
|
Post by diet coke on Jul 21, 2007 20:16:18 GMT -5
Does anybody besides Jesse have a take on this verse? How DO we fit this idea into our concept of a loving God?
|
|
|
Post by Brad Lewis on Jul 21, 2007 21:05:26 GMT -5
If people don't believe in the truth, then what do they believe in? This verse is stating the obvious. It is what we say every day. When someone says something that is not true, then we say they have lied. If numbers are not getting smaller or staying the same, then they are getting larger. If you are not getting stronger or staying the same in strength, then you are getting weaker. If you do not love the truth, then you love a lie. All the earth manifests these truths, no different in Bible. Brad
|
|
|
Post by diet coke on Jul 21, 2007 21:07:41 GMT -5
hmmm. ok, anybody besides Jesse and Brad? I still don't get it...somebody address the question, please? Is God purposefully fooling people so He can send them to Hell?
|
|
|
Post by roflol on Jul 22, 2007 10:14:30 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by NO on Jul 22, 2007 11:06:22 GMT -5
hmmm. ok, anybody besides Jesse and Brad? I still don't get it...somebody address the question, please? Is God purposefully fooling people so He can send them to Hell? There is NO way God can do anything evil. He would not, on purpose, lead anyone into Hell. We all have free will. He knows before we do anything that we are going to do it. He allows bad to happen so good can come of it
|
|
|
Post by NO on Jul 22, 2007 11:07:08 GMT -5
hmmm. ok, anybody besides Jesse and Brad? I still don't get it...somebody address the question, please? Is God purposefully fooling people so He can send them to Hell? There is NO way God can do anything evil. He would not, on purpose, lead anyone into Hell. We all have free will. He knows before we do anything that we are going to do it. He allows bad to happen so good can come of it
|
|
|
Post by diet coke on Jul 22, 2007 12:18:35 GMT -5
I think it's safe to say that no one has a clue what this verse means, or else anyone who IS able to understand it, is doing their best to sweep it under the rug.
|
|
|
Post by Yes on Jul 22, 2007 12:30:34 GMT -5
It is kinda like these verses which most want to talk away without admitting the reality of it.
Isaiah 45:6-8 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV)
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So then not only will God purposefully fool people, but God also created the evil that causes then to be confused.
|
|
|
Post by selah on Jul 22, 2007 18:34:53 GMT -5
Hi dc, I think it's safe to say that no one has a clue what this verse means, or else anyone who IS able to understand it, is doing their best to sweep it under the rug. I'll pass along my thoughts, so you will know I'm not trying to sweep it under the rug; however, I think it is safe to say I don't understand this well. I think these verses are referring to the end-time revelation of the antichrist. Counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders etc. are produced with the intent to deceive the perishing. They are perishing because they have deliberately rejected the truth that saves them. So, God gives them over to their belief in the lie that the antichrist is God. (verse 4). This delusion falls upon those who have delighted in wickedness and purposefully rejected Christ. I don't think the reference is to people who are simply confused or are having trouble believing, but to people who have deliberately chosen to not believe, and to relish in things opposed to God. Blessings, Linda
|
|
|
Post by selah on Jul 22, 2007 18:42:13 GMT -5
Regarding the analogy of the parent of a crack addicted child.....
In this passage those who have deliberately rejected the offer to be born again into the family of God...to literally be one of God's offspring...His child through new birth in the Spirit.....those ones have chosen to not be His children.
When we are born in the flesh, we are children of man. The new birth makes us children of God.
Does it mean God doesn't care about people outside of believers? NO, God DOES care...that's why He provided the gift of redemption through His Son....but if people still intentionally refuse to accept His offer....it is like a slap in His face, don't you think?
Since they have decided they prefer their own wickedness to God's freely offered righteousness, it's like He says, "Okay then...have it your way."
These are not just people who are a little bewildered or who may have had one drink too many. These are people who have gone WAY over the line...into the worst kind of blasphemy.
Blessings, Linda
|
|