|
Post by nathan on Nov 16, 2018 0:02:25 GMT -5
Revelation about the Truth of God has to be REVEALED by the Holy Spirit and NOT by men. If the workers can talk people into this and that belief, someone else comes along with eloquent of words and a better explanation and talk them out of it. BUT When the Holy Spirit REVEALS the truth to a person, NO one can TALK him or her out of it.... Like in math 2+2 = 4 No human being can change that equation, once you KNOW the formula you are NOT going to listen to someone who tells you 2+2=5.
If people want to believe the one who says 2+2= 5 and apply that formula in their lives but ready for the terrible consequence... Like building a mansion with the formula 2+2= 5. The mansion will fall when a Hurricane hits the house.
|
|
|
Post by DrPetros on Nov 16, 2018 11:20:54 GMT -5
Anyone here baptized as a 2x2 and then re-baptized in a different church? I'd love to hear about this...am wondering if it's something I should do. I do not fall into that category, since I never professed in the 2x2 ‘church’, and only received baptism years after leaving. However, I oppose re-baptism on theological grounds, holding to the doctrine of one baptism, in agreement with the traditional view of the Church. The main argument for opposing re-baptism arises out of what baptism is. Baptism is not just an outward sign of profession, and indeed a mark of distinction and difference, it is also a sign of regeneration and rebirth. When Christ calls the Christian, from that moment they are justified and also set apart – both things that cannot be reversed or repeated. Therefore, it logically follows that the symbolism of those (i.e. baptism) should not be repeated either. In addition, we can look at the two dominical sacraments as (a) the sacrament of joining the Church (baptism); and (b) the sacrament of belonging to the Church (Communion / Lord’s Supper). Both of these sacraments are regenerative, and I would argue that receiving Communion is functionally equivalent to what people want from rebaptism. Many Christians after a period of separation from Christ or His Church, or after grievous sin, may feel the need for re-baptism. I argue that even in these cases, re-baptism is not the right thing to do. This is because, if we view re-baptism as necessary or even just ‘preferred’ after such instances, we are effectively saying that the previous baptism was invalid. This means that the previous baptism’s validity must have been conditional upon obedience, worthiness or purity – this idea has always been held as a heresy by the Church. The doctrine that prayers and sacraments are effective and valid irrespective of the worthiness of the minister or participant has been foundational since the early Church – most notably against the Donatist heresies. This idea was so important that in the central doctrinal document of the Church of England there is an entire article dedicated to it, titled “of the unworthiness of the ministers, which hinders not the effect of the sacrament”. The reasoning behind this is that baptism is not conducted by magic or some sort of transmittable power, but is brought into effect by calling on Christ’s name and authority. The sacraments are effectual because of Christ's institution and promise, even if they are administered by evil men or upon a grievous sinner. In fact, Baptism is by its very nature a sacrament for sinners – its symbolism is that of washing – so it’s validity can hardly be affected or reduced by sin. However, in the context of ex members of the 2x2 ‘church’ this is complicated, not least because of regional differences in baptism across the world. Traditionally, the Church has considered valid any baptism performed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, irrespective of the theology or ‘worthiness’ of the person performing it (as above). However, some workers do not use this ‘Trinitarian formula’ when baptising, and in such circumstances, I would argue that re-baptism is valid, because it was not performed in the manner commanded by Christ: “baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. In any case, if you believe re-baptism is the right thing, don’t let me get in your way – I wouldn’t want to do that. Even if I’m correct, re-baptism would be superfluous, not problematic.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Nov 18, 2018 1:27:31 GMT -5
i specifically said to the worker that was doing the baptism for me that i didn't understand baptism completely especially why it had to be a second step instead of just being born again and being baptised at the same time... Same here, wally. I think we were right to question that. The bible makes it so simple and quick.
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Nov 18, 2018 1:51:26 GMT -5
Anyone here baptized as a 2x2 and then re-baptized in a different church? I'd love to hear about this...am wondering if it's something I should do. I do not fall into that category, since I never professed in the 2x2 ‘church’, and only received baptism years after leaving. However, I oppose re-baptism on theological grounds, holding to the doctrine of one baptism, in agreement with the traditional view of the Church. The main argument for opposing re-baptism arises out of what baptism is. Baptism is not just an outward sign of profession, and indeed a mark of distinction and difference, it is also a sign of regeneration and rebirth. When Christ calls the Christian, from that moment they are justified and also set apart – both things that cannot be reversed or repeated. Therefore, it logically follows that the symbolism of those (i.e. baptism) should not be repeated either. In addition, we can look at the two dominical sacraments as (a) the sacrament of joining the Church (baptism); and (b) the sacrament of belonging to the Church (Communion / Lord’s Supper). Both of these sacraments are regenerative, and I would argue that receiving Communion is functionally equivalent to what people want from rebaptism. Many Christians after a period of separation from Christ or His Church, or after grievous sin, may feel the need for re-baptism. I argue that even in these cases, re-baptism is not the right thing to do. This is because, if we view re-baptism as necessary or even just ‘preferred’ after such instances, we are effectively saying that the previous baptism was invalid. This means that the previous baptism’s validity must have been conditional upon obedience, worthiness or purity – this idea has always been held as a heresy by the Church. The doctrine that prayers and sacraments are effective and valid irrespective of the worthiness of the minister or participant has been foundational since the early Church – most notably against the Donatist heresies. This idea was so important that in the central doctrinal document of the Church of England there is an entire article dedicated to it, titled “of the unworthiness of the ministers, which hinders not the effect of the sacrament”. The reasoning behind this is that baptism is not conducted by magic or some sort of transmittable power, but is brought into effect by calling on Christ’s name and authority. The sacraments are effectual because of Christ's institution and promise, even if they are administered by evil men or upon a grievous sinner. In fact, Baptism is by its very nature a sacrament for sinners – its symbolism is that of washing – so it’s validity can hardly be affected or reduced by sin. However, in the context of ex members of the 2x2 ‘church’ this is complicated, not least because of regional differences in baptism across the world. Traditionally, the Church has considered valid any baptism performed in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, irrespective of the theology or ‘worthiness’ of the person performing it (as above). However, some workers do not use this ‘Trinitarian formula’ when baptising, and in such circumstances, I would argue that re-baptism is valid, because it was not performed in the manner commanded by Christ: “baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. In any case, if you believe re-baptism is the right thing, don’t let me get in your way – I wouldn’t want to do that. Even if I’m correct, re-baptism would be superfluous, not problematic. Dr. P, thank you so much for taking the time to share this!! That's very interesting. It makes me think of the imbalance of John baptizing Jesus and Jesus washing the disciples' feet. But maybe that's completely different because John and the disciples, presumably, were not evil at the time. Sacraments and prayers and baptisms aren't the same as sacrificial offerings, but what do you think of Cain's sacrifice not being accepted? And doesn't the bible say God doesn't answer the prayers of the unjust...or something to that effect? Ofc, like you and grace said earlier, neither the dunker or the dunkee has to/can be perfect. That's reassuring. I suppose I question whether my baptism counts because it didn't feel right or special. I'd been professing for several years (was a kid)...waiting for something or someone to tell me it was time. It was just the custom for kids to wait until either they knew it was the right time or until other grown-ups considered them ready. I didn't understand why I had to take another step, when I'd been living it for years already. Standing up to profess is so not biblical and was a real stumbling block for me when it was not followed by immediate baptism and communion. I think it's a cruel thing to hold that carrot away from a child, or anyone. I watched that plate and cup go around and knew they were for me, (and that Jesus was for me, and I accepted him and was grateful for his sacrifice), but couldn't have it. I don't blame anyone. That was just the system. Also, it seems like two different things...the baptizer being sinful, and him just not even understanding what he's doing. The latter one might have been my case. But maybe he had the right intention. I sure didn't understand either. I really appreciate your thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by grace02 on Nov 19, 2018 16:53:09 GMT -5
If I may, withlove, if getting baptized again is on your heart, I think you should do it! I agree that getting baptized again isn’t necessary, but it is an important symbol of giving your life to the Lord. If I had been allowed to be baptized the first time in the 2x2’s, I would have definitely been re-baptized. Mainly because while I was a part of the 2x2’s, I did not understand the meaning of baptism. If we’re being really honest here- I was more focused on finding a skirt long enough (per the workers request) and figuring out what I was going to say the next day during testimony time about being baptized. So, in short, if you want to throw a party and be baptized again- do it! I don’t think God is up in heaven shaking his head at someone wanting to show the world their dedication to him.
|
|
|
Post by grace02 on Nov 19, 2018 21:17:53 GMT -5
Looks like I should have left out the reasons for why they denied me baptism. The point is, baptism isn’t for those that “have it all together”, because truthfully, none of us have it all together (PSA-that includes the workers 😉). Before getting baptized by my pastor, I was having a convo with my pastors wife and asked the question, “how do I know I’m ready to be baptized?” She said, “do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ? Do you trust him as your savior- the one who died for your sins?”, to which I replied, “yes, of course”. It’s as simple as that guys. It’s not what I do or don’t do. Here’s another way to put it. On a scale of 1-10 how certain are you that you would go to heaven if you died today? If your answer is anywhere from a 5-10, why are you that certain? You know how I would answer? 10. Absolutely. Positively. 10. Jesus died for me, and is sitting at the right hand of God waiting for me to join him. He saved me through GRACE. There are not enough “good” things I could do to get to heaven, because at the end of the day, I’m a sinner. But I can live with hope, knowing that in Him, I am free. My chains are broken. I hope this makes sense and can shed some light on the whole baptism thing. Love to all of you, no matter what you believe ❤️ You've hit the nail absolutely on its head … When we left meetings in Australia, along with many others we tried to work out what senior workers believed or understood about the grace of God and what it meant. It was clear that they understood nothing - the Head Worker said to us Jesus didn't mention the word "grace" once. We tried to explain that Jesus and what He has done is the very grace of God - that Jesus is "full of grace and truth" - that's why He came and why He alone, could only save us and give life. They had no idea what we were talking about and we knew that John 1 wasn't a chapter that they really believed in at all. They had made it clear to us previously that Christ was just a man. Praise God that He has shown you His grace and the curse and stain of sin on your life has been broken. Live in hope and live for Him - it's more than worth it because of what He has done! Thank you for the encouragement, Ross! I’m so glad you guys have found who Jesus really is too. His grace is what it’s all about. ❤️❤️
|
|
|
Post by grace02 on Nov 19, 2018 21:24:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Dec 18, 2018 20:48:46 GMT -5
If I may, withlove , if getting baptized again is on your heart, I think you should do it! I agree that getting baptized again isn’t necessary, but it is an important symbol of giving your life to the Lord. If I had been allowed to be baptized the first time in the 2x2’s, I would have definitely been re-baptized. Mainly because while I was a part of the 2x2’s, I did not understand the meaning of baptism. If we’re being really honest here- I was more focused on finding a skirt long enough (per the workers request) and figuring out what I was going to say the next day during testimony time about being baptized. So, in short, if you want to throw a party and be baptized again- do it! I don’t think God is up in heaven shaking his head at someone wanting to show the world their dedication to him. Thank you for your input, and the link, grace! It's not opening for me yet, but I'll search. Sorry about your experience. May I ask what your baptism in a different church was like? It's not that it's "on my heart" to re-baptize. I just don't know what should be done, and appreciate everyone's thoughts on it. Also I just mourn what could/should have been a good experience. I wish that it didn't all feel tainted.
|
|
|
Post by Dennis J on Dec 18, 2018 21:29:21 GMT -5
Kind lady, if your baptism was between you and the two and two system, then perhaps you should be baptized. If, on the other hand, your baptism was between you and your LORD , would it matter? If you think not, then, smile, neither do I!
|
|
|
Post by withlove on Dec 18, 2018 21:57:22 GMT -5
Thank you, gams. I don't know how to answer who it was between. It was like a burial service for a decade-old corpse. I wanted it to mean something but it seemed pretty anti-climactic. And if it was meant to celebrate the new man, it was 10 years late. Maybe it meant something to people who didn't know me to see someone being baptized. But God and I knew we'd been together for a long time. Maybe this was all just me having a bad attitude. It's not that I was expecting a dove to land on me or anything. I don't know. I think it was just the timing was very off. Which made it feel like a depressing theatrical production.
|
|
|
Post by Dennis J on Dec 19, 2018 6:47:01 GMT -5
Huge sigh! Understand, ma’am. Your question is a common one. Having been responsible for many baptism services, and remembering my own, upon discovering “the truth” was not as I had been taught, your question came into my mind also. While a number here discredit “praying about it”, I do not. When that is what I did, I became aware my baptism was between myself and my LORD, and NOT the 2&2 system, thus felt no need to repeat it. (For whatever good my experience May be to you, if nada, just ignore it.)
If you would appreciate any reassurance from me, I certainly consider you my kind sister in belief in our Lord, one with me in desire to be included with/as the bride of Christ. Blessings, DAJ
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2018 9:40:27 GMT -5
Workers have withheld baptism for some until they conform and obey various 2x2 traditions and (unwritten) rules. Were you refused baptism? Have you heard, or known of anyone wanting to be baptized being required to do certain things?
No rules? From a 2 page note titled "Baptism" - no author given: "As a candidate for baptism, do you have your affections set on things above? Are you faithful in reading and praying? Are you free from every form of bitterness and unforgiveness? Are you free from the bondage of ungodly and worldly practices, such as smoking, drinking, swearing, worldly entertainments, the unnecessary adornment of self with gold, silver, pearls. etc., make-up or apparel that attracts attention to self? If single, are you purposed to not become unequally yoked with an unbeliever? Do you believe in Jesus with all your heart? Assured that He is able to lead you and to save you?" I was. They said I was too young. And, they were likely right about that. I was 10 years old. Maybe you should count yourself lucky. I wish now that they had refused to baptise me. That way I might have drifted away from 2x2ism earlier than I did and perhaps saved myself 10 years of believing in a God who wasn’t there. But they didn’t. And they didn’t ask any of those peculiar questions either. It was into the pond you go and then swiftly out again. I certainly didn’t feel any different afterwards. My most abiding memory is someone remarking to me afterwards (on observing my wet hair) that they hadn’t realised it had been raining. Which sums it up perfectly. Looking back now I see it as an absurdity. I think there were three or four of us, all men, the rest much older than me, dressed up in these second hand clothes waiting for these elderly men who I didn’t know navigate us into this small pond, duck our heads under the water while muttering something about the Holy Spirit and then navigate us out again. And then it was over. That was pretty much it. No one ever spoke of it to me again. Not once. Of course at that time I believed that God was real and had something to do with it but once you realise that not only had he nothing to do with it but that he is merely a human creation, it just becomes a ridiculous scenario, something more fitting for a scene from the movie, The Life of Brian. I still ask myself what on earth I was doing and wonder is my lifelong fear of water somewhat down to the trauma of the experience. Humans are fond of rituals whether they be religious or pagan, modern or ancient. And the whole baptism thing must be one of humanity’s more peculiar ones. That’s certainly how I see it. A bizarre human ritual practiced on the unsuspecting by those who have been conditioned to believe in it. Not that far removed from human sacrifice albeit one in which no one gets hurt, at least not physically. Matt10
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Dec 19, 2018 10:42:32 GMT -5
Quote- Humans are fond of rituals whether they be religious or pagan, modern or ancient.
So true . Some people , including myself , even exchange non-ferrous material ,shaped in a circle, on special occasions , which they call a wedding , and then go about wearing this circle , for various reasons . Some , for various reasons , take the circle off , and then upon finding a new partner or sometimes back with the original one , have another ritual occasion and then put fresh circles on each other’s fingers . Humans are quite unique in many ways . Personally , I did not get rebaptized after leaving the 2x2 church , as I considered my baptism was between God and myself , not between the workers and myself , but surely would not discourage someone if they perdonally feel the need. Do not do it because of PRESSURE from others though . Personal decision
Ps - A friend shared a while back , that when his father was dying , his father callled his sons together, and told them very solemnly, Sons , let us have a beer together . That ritual they performed that day as a family, was and remains ,a very very precious solemn and meaningful occasion and I imagine every time he has a beer , he thinks of his precious Dad . Interestingly , his Dad had been very heavy drinker in his younger years , and then , totally abstained for many many years , so it was a surprise to the boys when their Dad requested this “ritualistic “ last drink with his sons .
Alvin
|
|