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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2018 17:39:08 GMT -5
I saw this film yesterday. We all should go and see it. While it’s specifically about the Jehovah’s Witnesses the similarities it shares with 2x2ism are uncanny. The references to meetings. The references to ‘the truth’. The belief that we and we alone are right. The adherence to the system and the importance put on attending meetings. The pedestal that the elders (for elders read workers) are put on and the obedience given to them. The demands from the elders for obedience and the excommunication of those who are disobedient or involved in fornication. The splitting of families for the sake of the organisation. The giving of ‘advice’ on matters which the elders are not schooled in. The twisting of scripture to promote the sect’s own peculiar teachings. The funeral service which barely mentions the deceased but witters on about God, death and the risk of spending eternity in a fiery pit if you do not believe and submit. The conditioning, the separation from the world, the young person discovering information in the internet and the response that it’s just information put there by the bitter! (I kid you not!) It’s all there. There’s even a reference to Armageddon in 1975 and leaders selling of their houses believing it was about to arrive in a situation reminiscent of that of our very own nutter and founder William Irvine in 1914. God works in mysterious ways but at least he’s consistent. The film is a marvellous demonstration of how a sect and its elders can control and take over members’ entire lives. And not always in a positive way. It really is shocking and disconcerting at times not to mention tragic. And then there’s the scene towards the end where the daughter, having suffered enough physical and mental abuse at the hands of the elders (who maintain a deceptive, smiling, this is for your own good persona) turns around and says I just don’t believe that God is like that, I just don’t believe this stuff any more (much to her mother’s despair). If you want to know what it’s like to be raised in a peculiar crazy religious sect this is your movie. If you think the Jehovah Witnesses are crazy but the 2x2s are not, this is your movie. If you think that you might yourself be in a peculiar crazy religious sect then this is your movie. If you want an insight into the type of religious sect you really shouldn’t be part of, this is your movie, It could be at a cinema near you shortly. Matt10 www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/15/apostasy-director-daniel-kokotajlo-liberating-to-leave-jehovahs-witnesses-interview
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Post by snow on Sept 17, 2018 15:04:33 GMT -5
I saw this film yesterday. We all should go and see it. While it’s specifically about the Jehovah’s Witnesses the similarities it shares with 2x2ism are uncanny. The references to meetings. The references to ‘the truth’. The belief that we and we alone are right. The adherence to the system and the importance put on attending meetings. The pedestal that the elders (for elders read workers) are put on and the obedience given to them. The demands from the elders for obedience and the excommunication of those who are disobedient or involved in fornication. The splitting of families for the sake of the organisation. The giving of ‘advice’ on matters which the elders are not schooled in. The twisting of scripture to promote the sect’s own peculiar teachings. The funeral service which barely mentions the deceased but witters on about God, death and the risk of spending eternity in a fiery pit if you do not believe and submit. The conditioning, the separation from the world, the young person discovering information in the internet and the response that it’s just information put there by the bitter! (I kid you not!) It’s all there. There’s even a reference to Armageddon in 1975 and leaders selling of their houses believing it was about to arrive in a situation reminiscent of that of our very own nutter and founder William Irvine in 1914. God works in mysterious ways but at least he’s consistent. The film is a marvellous demonstration of how a sect and its elders can control and take over members’ entire lives. And not always in a positive way. It really is shocking and disconcerting at times not to mention tragic. And then there’s the scene towards the end where the daughter, having suffered enough physical and mental abuse at the hands of the elders (who maintain a deceptive, smiling, this is for your own good persona) turns around and says I just don’t believe that God is like that, I just don’t believe this stuff any more (much to her mother’s despair). If you want to know what it’s like to be raised in a peculiar crazy religious sect this is your movie. If you think the Jehovah Witnesses are crazy but the 2x2s are not, this is your movie. If you think that you might yourself be in a peculiar crazy religious sect then this is your movie. If you want an insight into the type of religious sect you really shouldn’t be part of, this is your movie, It could be at a cinema near you shortly. Matt10 www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/15/apostasy-director-daniel-kokotajlo-liberating-to-leave-jehovahs-witnesses-interviewThanks Matt 10 I will try to watch that. It makes sense that there are a lot of commonalities. Irvine and Russell knew each other and were friends from what I heard. Maybe Cherie knows about that for sure. I see the movie is available on Prime Video but you need to be a member like you do on Net flix. Here is a link for anyone that wants to sign up for their movies. www.primevideo.com/?ref=dvm_tt_crs_imd_in_sr_wbr&tag=imdbtag_tt_wbr_tt_piv-20
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Post by Grant on Sept 17, 2018 15:57:48 GMT -5
As someone wrote on another site William Irvine took Russells (JW) date 1914 as the age of grace. They both saw the date as significant.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2018 17:59:46 GMT -5
Thanks Matt 10 I will try to watch that. It makes sense that there are a lot of commonalities. Irvine and Russell knew each other and were friends from what I heard. Maybe Cherie knows about that for sure. I see the movie is available on Prime Video but you need to be a member like you do on Net flix. Here is a link for anyone that wants to sign up for their movies. www.primevideo.com/?ref=dvm_tt_crs_imd_in_sr_wbr&tag=imdbtag_tt_wbr_tt_piv-20I was lucky in that it was shown here in the cinema which is by far the best place to watch movies I think. However watching it home alone does help you avoid that awkward moment after the cinema when the person with whom you are with reflects on the film experience by saying ‘hey, that was pretty weird, imagine being brought up in a weird church like that’ ... and you have to feign bemusement at what it must be like . Matt10
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Post by snow on Sept 18, 2018 12:05:17 GMT -5
Thanks Matt 10 I will try to watch that. It makes sense that there are a lot of commonalities. Irvine and Russell knew each other and were friends from what I heard. Maybe Cherie knows about that for sure. I see the movie is available on Prime Video but you need to be a member like you do on Net flix. Here is a link for anyone that wants to sign up for their movies. www.primevideo.com/?ref=dvm_tt_crs_imd_in_sr_wbr&tag=imdbtag_tt_wbr_tt_piv-20I was lucky in that it was shown here in the cinema which is by far the best place to watch movies I think. However watching it home alone does help you avoid that awkward moment after the cinema when the person with whom you are with reflects on the film experience by saying ‘hey, that was pretty weird, imagine being brought up in a weird church like that’ ... and you have to feign bemusement at what it must be like . Matt10 Yes I can see how that might be a bit uncomfortable. I don't have a problem telling people about the church I grew up in. It was what it was. Glad you got to see it. I will wait till it hits Net flix I guess.
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Post by Lee on Sept 23, 2018 23:29:43 GMT -5
Not sure when it shows near me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 13:13:42 GMT -5
Thanks Matt10 for pointing us to this film. I saw it today.
I found it an 'ok' film - it certainly showed the joylessness when people's lives are controlled by strict rules and where control (of one's life) is handed over to other people.
I personally accept that nowadays the 2x2 fellowship (in most parts of the world) is much less governed by 'rules and regulations' when compared to previous generations. So I don't think nowadays 2x2 people generally, will be living in the 'doom and gloom' that weighs heavily over this film. However, i can see that there will be people who have been in the 2x2 church for a long time and have seen it evolve through the years, who will look back and be able to recollect happenings that are akin to what was shown here - the controlling etc.
I'm glad that this is largely a thing of the past for the 2x2s, though the pain people have experienced in years gone by should not be forgotten. And we never want the wrongs of the past to ever reappear. Also, the film reminds of the damage that can still occur whenever a sub-group of a church are handed authority and abuse the power they think they have, in seeking to control others' lives. I don't think I have expressed this very well, but hopefully the gist of it comes across.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 15:24:53 GMT -5
Thanks for your post lance, this 80 year old agrees with what you say "I'm glad that this is largely a thing of the past for the 2x2s, though the pain people have experienced in years gone by should not be forgotten. And we never want the wrongs of the past to ever reappear. Also, the film reminds of the damage that can still occur whenever a sub-group of a church are handed authority and abuse the power they think they have, in seeking to control others' lives".
Like you I am glad that things are changing, and the bad old days are fading into the past. It is so sad that families were torn apart in those early days. We know now that it was so wrong, beliefs should never cause disharmony. It is still painful for me when I remember the hurt that it caused in my Mother's family.
And as Bob posted recently we do not blame our Parents. It was because of the naivety that existed at that period in time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 16:08:39 GMT -5
A Christian denomination is a distinct religious body within Christianity, identified by traits such as a name, organization, leadership and doctrine. Individual bodies, however, may use alternative terms to describe themselves, such as church or sometimes fellowship. Divisions between one group and another are defined by authority and doctrine; issues such as the nature of Jesus, the authority of apostolic succession, eschatology, and papal primacy may separate one denomination from another.
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Post by nathan on Dec 13, 2018 23:47:55 GMT -5
Thanks Matt10 for pointing us to this film. I saw it today. I found it an 'ok' film - it certainly showed the joylessness when people's lives are controlled by strict rules and where control (of one's life) is handed over to other people. I personally accept that nowadays the 2x2 fellowship (in most parts of the world) is much less governed by 'rules and regulations' when compared to previous generations. So I don't think nowadays 2x2 people generally, will be living in the 'doom and gloom' that weighs heavily over this film. However, i can see that there will be people who have been in the 2x2 church for a long time and have seen it evolve through the years, who will look back and be able to recollect happenings that are akin to what was shown here - the controlling etc. I'm glad that this is largely a thing of the past for the 2x2s, though the pain people have experienced in years gone by should not be forgotten. And we never want the wrongs of the past to ever reappear. Also, the film reminds of the damage that can still occur whenever a sub-group of a church are handed authority and abuse the power they think they have, in seeking to control others' lives. I don't think I have expressed this very well, but hopefully the gist of it comes across. I agree with you. Many of the older generation of workers came off the farm and went straight in the work. Some had high school education, hardly any of them went to college because it was discouraged among them. They had little of communication skills dealing with people. They learned from the schools of hard knocks, set in their own ways, hard to teach an old dog new tricks. The younger generation of workers are more open minded, many of them have gone to colleges, and Universities... More sensitive to people feelings. They are more in tune to the Spirit to guide the friends than the old style of rules, do's and don'ts. I dealt with the older generation of workers overseers, and they were TOUGH! crude, and hardly anyone could change their minds on certain things, their ways or the highways. However, these older generation of workers made the younger workers generation of overseers much stronger and better men for today's generation. They do NOT want to repeat that kind of crude, unapproachable, my ways or the highways attitude.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 14, 2018 5:03:54 GMT -5
I don't want to be a Grinch but can we be a little more thoughtful about WHY things may have changed for the better?
Could it be that now nearly everyone knows and has accepted; -grudgingly, yes, -but HAD to accept, -the information about the beginnings because of the reliability of the information we know is true, -that maybe people aren't as easily told what to do as they were when they thought they went all the way back to days of Jesus?
I do not care HOW much it is supposed to have changed, -I am SO glad I got free and did so in time to also keep my children free from it all -that I would rather die than to ever have to go back!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 7:01:56 GMT -5
I don't want to be a Grinch but can we be a little more thoughtful about WHY things may have changed for the better?
Could it be that now nearly everyone knows and has accepted; -grudgingly, yes, -but HAD to accept, -the information about the beginnings because of the reliability of the information we know is true, -that maybe people aren't as easily told what to do as they were when they thought they went all the way back to days of Jesus?
I do not care HOW much it is supposed to have changed, -I am SO glad I got free and did so in time to also keep my children free from it all -that I would rather die than to ever have to go back!
I think people here have shown thought. Things have changed for the better no doubt for a variety of reasons, some of which people have mentioned here. These reasons will be diverse and differ region to region. In some parts of the world, the reason you centre on will be big, in other places it probably doesn't register much at all eg I knew from well before I professed about the beginnings as did many people in the country I was born in. If we asked about the beginnings there was no coverup. I am aware that the same approach was not taken worldwide (particularly in the US?). That was wrong and a bad error to make. As regards your last paragraph, I agree totally. I too left at a time that was beneficial for our children and am grateful for that. I agree there is zero chance I will ever go back. All the people I keep in touch with in the 2x2 meetings are very nice and pleasant people, and I am very glad for them that their experience of being in the meetings has become an easier and happier one.
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Post by openingact34 on Dec 14, 2018 8:02:45 GMT -5
Thanks Matt10 for pointing us to this film. I saw it today. I found it an 'ok' film - it certainly showed the joylessness when people's lives are controlled by strict rules and where control (of one's life) is handed over to other people. I personally accept that nowadays the 2x2 fellowship (in most parts of the world) is much less governed by 'rules and regulations' when compared to previous generations. So I don't think nowadays 2x2 people generally, will be living in the 'doom and gloom' that weighs heavily over this film. However, i can see that there will be people who have been in the 2x2 church for a long time and have seen it evolve through the years, who will look back and be able to recollect happenings that are akin to what was shown here - the controlling etc. I'm glad that this is largely a thing of the past for the 2x2s, though the pain people have experienced in years gone by should not be forgotten. And we never want the wrongs of the past to ever reappear. Also, the film reminds of the damage that can still occur whenever a sub-group of a church are handed authority and abuse the power they think they have, in seeking to control others' lives. I don't think I have expressed this very well, but hopefully the gist of it comes across. I agree with you. Many of the older generation of workers came off the farm and went straight in the work. Some had high school education, hardly any of them went to college because it was discouraged among them. They had little of communication skills dealing with people. They learned from the schools of hard knocks, set in their own ways, hard to teach an old dog new tricks. The younger generation of workers are more open minded, many of them have gone to colleges, and Universities... More sensitive to people feelings. They are more in tune to the Spirit to guide the friends than the old style of rules, do's and don'ts. I dealt with the older generation of workers overseers, and they were TOUGH! crude, and hardly anyone could change their minds on certain things, their ways or the highways. However, these older generation of workers made the younger workers generation of overseers much stronger and better men for today's generation. They do NOT want to repeat that kind of crude, unapproachable, my ways or the highways attitude.
Growing up on the farm does not make people crude, unapproachable or dictatorial. In my experience, it is just the opposite. What makes these men tyrants is modeling themselves after the examples in the New Testament of Jesus and the apostles. It is a pity that Bert isn't around. He could make a giant list of "my way or the highway" verses like: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.".
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Post by nathan on Dec 14, 2018 22:05:44 GMT -5
I agree with you. Many of the older generation of workers came off the farm and went straight in the work. Some had high school education, hardly any of them went to college because it was discouraged among them. They had little of communication skills dealing with people. They learned from the schools of hard knocks, set in their own ways, hard to teach an old dog new tricks. The younger generation of workers are more open minded, many of them have gone to colleges, and Universities... More sensitive to people feelings. They are more in tune to the Spirit to guide the friends than the old style of rules, do's and don'ts. I dealt with the older generation of workers overseers, and they were TOUGH! crude, and hardly anyone could change their minds on certain things, their ways or the highways. However, these older generation of workers made the younger workers generation of overseers much stronger and better men for today's generation. They do NOT want to repeat that kind of crude, unapproachable, my ways or the highways attitude.
Growing up on the farm does not make people crude, unapproachable or dictatorial. In my experience, it is just the opposite. What makes these men tyrants is modeling themselves after the examples in the New Testament of Jesus and the apostles. It is a pity that Bert isn't around. He could make a giant list of "my way or the highway" verses like: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.". I said the older generation of workers many lack with grace in dealing with people, they usually very blunt in telling the people the truth without grace. That was the attitude people in that generation, Like fire and brimstone sermons and their dealing with the friends. The workers these days are more graceful, and more sensitive to the people feelings and needs.
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Post by colleenpercy on Dec 27, 2018 8:17:20 GMT -5
Great film. So similar to 2x2 behavior. Mother in film is 100% indoctrinated - daughter dies because of nutty sect ideas, other daughter woefully unprepared for living in 'world' becomes unwed single mother because of nutty sect ideas to which then sect and Mother blame on daughter!, and Mother also attempts to kidnap grandchild to 'save her' by taking her to meetings.
Very similar behavior to 2x2s. Actors do great job of conveying that deer-in-headlights fear, confused certainty, does-not-compute, looks that 2x2s have so often.
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2019 0:18:00 GMT -5
Great film. So similar to 2x2 behavior. Mother in film is 100% indoctrinated - daughter dies because of nutty sect ideas, other daughter woefully unprepared for living in 'world' becomes unwed single mother because of nutty sect ideas to which then sect and Mother blame on daughter!, and Mother also attempts to kidnap grandchild to 'save her' by taking her to meetings. Very similar behavior to 2x2s. Actors do great job of conveying that deer-in-headlights fear, confused certainty, does-not-compute, looks that 2x2s have so often.
Do you mean nutty sect ideas like the exorcisms of Maricica Irina Cornici, Jacqueline Sanchez, or Anna Elisabeth Michelor that resulted in their deaths? Any religion can cause people to believe and do crazy things.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2019 5:27:08 GMT -5
Great film. So similar to 2x2 behavior. Mother in film is 100% indoctrinated - daughter dies because of nutty sect ideas, other daughter woefully unprepared for living in 'world' becomes unwed single mother because of nutty sect ideas to which then sect and Mother blame on daughter!, and Mother also attempts to kidnap grandchild to 'save her' by taking her to meetings. Very similar behavior to 2x2s.
Do you mean nutty sect ideas like the exorcisms of Maricica Irina Cornici, Jacqueline Sanchez, or Anna Elisabeth Michelor that resulted in their deaths? Any religion can cause people to believe and do crazy things. The Tanacu exorcism was a case in which Maricica Irina Cornici, a mentally ill nun at the Romanian Orthodox Church monastery of Tanacu in Vaslui County, Romania, was killed during an exorcism led by priest Daniel Petre Corogeanu and four Orthodox Christian nuns who were a part of the Order of the Holy Trinity.[1]
The case was widely publicized in the Romanian media and, following a lengthy trial, the priest was sentenced on appeal to 7 years, one nun to 6 years and the other three nuns to 5 years.
They were all found guilty of deprivation of liberty resulting in the victim's death
. They received a relatively lenient sentence, compared to the original desire of the prosecution who sought life imprisonment for the priest.
Many of Tanacu's residents, including Cornici's brother, believed her to have suffered from demonic possession.[2][3]
The exorcism took place in June 2005. from wiki
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Post by bendle on Jan 12, 2019 15:40:47 GMT -5
Thanks for your post lance, this 80 year old agrees with what you say "I'm glad that this is largely a thing of the past for the 2x2s, though the pain people have experienced in years gone by should not be forgotten. And we never want the wrongs of the past to ever reappear. Also, the film reminds of the damage that can still occur whenever a sub-group of a church are handed authority and abuse the power they think they have, in seeking to control others' lives". Like you I am glad that things are changing, and the bad old days are fading into the past. It is so sad that families were torn apart in those early days. We know now that it was so wrong, beliefs should never cause disharmony. It is still painful for me when I remember the hurt that it caused in my Mother's family. And as Bob posted recently we do not blame our Parents. It was because of the naivety that existed at that period in time. Redback, i was at a funeral about 10 years ago of a professing chap who we knew well as kids. At the funeral there were people who expressed surprise that his nephew came to it as the deceased and his brother had fallen out over his descision to leave the 'Chapel' and join the 2x2s in the 30s or 40s. They farmed neighbouring farms but had effectively not spoken for years as i understand. Unbelievably sad really.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 18:24:33 GMT -5
Thanks for that Bendle, there was absolutely no justification for that sort of behaviour. I have spoken to Workers about it and they agree that it was completely wrong. I guess you have to give them credit, that they now understand that family unity should never be disrupted because of religion. Those early Workers were over zealous, and far too pushy, and sort of got it wrong.
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