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Post by Get off of TMB on Jan 25, 2018 18:58:45 GMT -5
Guns, bombs, etc. are out of view. How about banning backpacks??
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 25, 2018 20:20:33 GMT -5
Guns, bombs, etc. are out of view. How about banning backpacks?? Schools do ban back packs, and did away with lockers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 21:14:46 GMT -5
Guns, bombs, etc. are out of view. How about banning backpacks?? what about backpacks that have a ballistic shield in them?
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Post by howitis on Jan 26, 2018 0:40:18 GMT -5
Ban schools....then there would be no school shootings or bombings ☺....just a suggestion
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Post by rational on Feb 22, 2018 2:21:22 GMT -5
Guns, bombs, etc. are out of view. How about banning backpacks?? Require they be made of glass... Or objectively evaluate the risk...
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Post by vanillagorilla on Feb 22, 2018 12:40:55 GMT -5
wait, have any mass shooters carried a rifle into school concealed in a backpack?
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Post by rational on Feb 22, 2018 12:54:06 GMT -5
wait, have any mass shooters carried a rifle into school concealed in a backpack? Are you trying to push a bit of reality into the discussion?
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2018 14:25:49 GMT -5
wait, have any mass shooters carried a rifle into school concealed in a backpack? No. But rifles have been brought into schools concealed under baggy jeans and sweat-shirts. I didn't mean sagging pants ... they won't work. They have to be baggy and belted at the waist.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2018 14:30:42 GMT -5
Guns, bombs, etc. are out of view. How about banning backpacks?? what about backpacks that have a ballistic shield in them? For what purpose? But school backpacks aren't big enough anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 14:34:08 GMT -5
what about backpacks that have a ballistic shield in them? For what purpose? But school backpacks aren't big enough anyway. to stop being shot of course... some are about the size of a kids torso...
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2018 14:40:02 GMT -5
For what purpose? But school backpacks aren't big enough anyway. to stop being shot of course... some are about the size of a kids torso... Okay little kiddies, shield up and go single file to Mrs. Smith's class. And if you see any strangers in the hallway, shoot first and stay safe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 18:51:29 GMT -5
to stop being shot of course... some are about the size of a kids torso... Okay little kiddies, shield up and go single file to Mrs. Smith's class. And if you see any strangers in the hallway, shoot first and stay safe. no one wants the kids armed what is being suggested is that armed guards are or teachers....the isreal model works....
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Post by rational on Feb 22, 2018 22:33:54 GMT -5
Okay little kiddies, shield up and go single file to Mrs. Smith's class. And if you see any strangers in the hallway, shoot first and stay safe. no one wants the kids armed what is being suggested is that armed guards are or teachers....the isreal model works.... Arming teachers has to be one of the worse ideas ever. Is there anywhere in the world where that is the solution?
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2018 22:51:28 GMT -5
Okay little kiddies, shield up and go single file to Mrs. Smith's class. And if you see any strangers in the hallway, shoot first and stay safe. no one wants the kids armed what is being suggested is that armed guards are or teachers....the isreal model works.... First of all, Israelis who carry guns don't do that to defend themselves from their fellow Israelis. They have them to protect the population from enemies of the state, and insurgents, such as the ROF, Sagebrush Rebellion, and all those fringe groups we have who conduct war against the federal government. You've got the wrong interpretation of suns in schools in Israel. Undoubtedly you've got the wrong idea about individual gun ownership in Israel. And yes, it works. Why? Because the only ones who carry guns are "professional security" people assigned to carry them, not little old ladies, kindergarten teachers, bakers, etc. THAT works in the United States, and Canada and Australia. Don't think for a minute you'd like living by the Israeli gun laws, because the first thing they'd do is arrest people like you who collect them. My brother visits in-laws once a year, and they don't drive anywhere with a gun in the car, not in Israel, not in the West Bank, or Jordan, or Egypt (north Sinai) ... war zones according to the US media.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2018 22:57:19 GMT -5
no one wants the kids armed what is being suggested is that armed guards are or teachers....the isreal model works.... Arming teachers has to be one of the worse ideas ever. Is there anywhere in the world where that is the solution? North Korea
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 23:46:39 GMT -5
no one wants the kids armed what is being suggested is that armed guards are or teachers....the isreal model works.... Arming teachers has to be one of the worse ideas ever. Is there anywhere in the world where that is the solution? i believe in isreal they have armed the teachers and have armed guards its worked for a couple decades or so.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 23:48:41 GMT -5
no one wants the kids armed what is being suggested is that armed guards are or teachers....the isreal model works.... First of all, Israelis who carry guns don't do that to defend themselves from their fellow Israelis. They have them to protect the population from enemies of the state, and insurgents, such as the ROF, Sagebrush Rebellion, and all those fringe groups we have who conduct war against the federal government. You've got the wrong interpretation of suns in schools in Israel. Undoubtedly you've got the wrong idea about individual gun ownership in Israel. And yes, it works. Why? Because the only ones who carry guns are "professional security" people assigned to carry them, not little old ladies, kindergarten teachers, bakers, etc. THAT works in the United States, and Canada and Australia. Don't think for a minute you'd like living by the Israeli gun laws, because the first thing they'd do is arrest people like you who collect them. My brother visits in-laws once a year, and they don't drive anywhere with a gun in the car, not in Israel, not in the West Bank, or Jordan, or Egypt (north Sinai) ... war zones according to the US media. in isreal its my understanding that people who attained the rank of captain or higher in the IDF can carry/own a gun...
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Post by rational on Feb 22, 2018 23:52:57 GMT -5
Arming teachers has to be one of the worse ideas ever. Is there anywhere in the world where that is the solution? i believe in isreal they have armed the teachers and have armed guards its worked for a couple decades or so. I would like to agree with you but in that case we would both be wrong. By policy teachers in Israel are not armed. Security is usually maintained by a single entrance guarded by army personal - not to guard against random shooters but against terrorists.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 0:04:06 GMT -5
i believe in isreal they have armed the teachers and have armed guards its worked for a couple decades or so. I would like to agree with you but in that case we would both be wrong. By policy teachers in Israel are not armed. Security is usually maintained by a single entrance guarded by army personal - not to guard against random shooters but against terrorists. regardless of who is doing it there is an armed presence at isreal schools and they keep violent people away 99% of the time and we should do the same whether its armed guards or armed teachers...already a couple hundred or so have come forward to volunteer to do that as we speak...it would be no different then having armed pilots which everyone said would be a bad thing and look how thats worked out....
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Post by rational on Feb 23, 2018 0:38:11 GMT -5
I would like to agree with you but in that case we would both be wrong. By policy teachers in Israel are not armed. Security is usually maintained by a single entrance guarded by army personal - not to guard against random shooters but against terrorists. regardless of who is doing it there is an armed presence at isreal schools and they keep violent people away 99% of the time and we should do the same whether its armed guards or armed teachers...already a couple hundred or so have come forward to volunteer to do that as we speak...it would be no different then having armed pilots which everyone said would be a bad thing and look how thats worked out.... Can't you just admit you were wrong about the armed teachers in Israel? And it is not the same. In Israel the guards are trained and carry assault weapons. That would not be the case with the armed teachers you are talking about. Given the financial situation of must school systems what would be the caliber/number of guards that they could afford? The airlines do not mandate armed pilots. What makes you think it has worked out? The security for passengers boarding has been improved and the cockpit doors have been hardened. So far no one has breached the door. But not because the pilots are armed. Perhaps the air marshals have much more of an impact.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 0:51:52 GMT -5
regardless of who is doing it there is an armed presence at isreal schools and they keep violent people away 99% of the time and we should do the same whether its armed guards or armed teachers...already a couple hundred or so have come forward to volunteer to do that as we speak...it would be no different then having armed pilots which everyone said would be a bad thing and look how thats worked out.... Can't you just admit you were wrong about the armed teachers in Israel? And it is not the same. In Israel the guards are trained and carry assault weapons. That would not be the case with the armed teachers you are talking about. Given the financial situation of must school systems what would be the caliber/number of guards that they could afford? The airlines do not mandate armed pilots. What makes you think it has worked out? The security for passengers boarding has been improved and the cockpit doors have been hardened. So far no one has breached the door. But not because the pilots are armed. Perhaps the air marshals have much more of an impact. when i google it i get half of the pages saying there are armed teachers and half saying there aren't...i've done no wrong... i believe what is proposed is voluntarily armed teachers thats no cost to the school financially... still some of the pilots are armed and may be keeping people from rushing the cabin thats a deterrent...
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Post by rational on Feb 23, 2018 1:41:42 GMT -5
when i google it i get half of the pages saying there are armed teachers and half saying there aren't...i've done no wrong... OK, I don't know where you have searched. Here is a summary of Israeli education security: ISRAELI LAW
Security Guards
According to officials at the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem and the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C., Israeli law currently requires educational institutions with more than 100 students to post a guard. The Security and Emergency Department within the Israel Police has the overall responsibility to provide security for all schools and surrounding areas, while the guards actually stationed at the schools are generally employed by private security companies working with local authorities. The principal of each school oversees the specific security arrangements, and must appoint a designated security aide to assist with these arrangements.
By law, the guard must check the school site 30 minutes before school starts. He or she then checks people and vehicles entering the school and can permit or refuse entry to unauthorized people. The guard is generally stationed at the school entrance and is responsible for security outside the school (but not internal security issues, like fights between students). In the event of actual hostile activity (essentially terrorist in nature), the guard must engage with the attacker or attackers.
In the last Knesset (the Israeli legislature), a bill was introduced authorizing guards to intervene in certain cases inside schools. This was in response to a perceived rise in non-terror-related violent incidents in schools (i.e., fights between students). The proposal failed.
Authorization to Carry Firearms in Schools
The law permits the following people to carry firearms in schools:
1. the guards (provided they are the security company's property and not their own weapons),
2. authorized Education Ministry personnel using ministry firearms,
3. the police, and
4. the army.
According to the U.S. and Israeli embassies, the lawful purposes for carrying firearms are to (1) protect school personnel and students, (2) create a sense of security, (3) deter the ill-intentioned, and (4) provide self-defense. The guard must possess a valid license to carry guns issued by the Ministry of Public Security and the Israel Police. The qualifications of the license holder normally include a high school diploma, clean record, and weapons training. Additionally, strict protocols and guidance exist regarding carrying a weapon and the types of weapons that can be carried. I don't see teachers liking the extra responsibility for nothing. Most are over loaded and under paid as it is. As a former teacher in a locked school (it was to keep people in rather than to keep them out) the last thing I wanted available to my students was a potential weapon. It would be interesting to know how many people who want to arm the teachers have ever faced a weapon that can discharge about 500 rounds per minute. That is about 8 high velocity rounds per second while they are standing with a handgun perhaps holding 15 rounds. I don't see arming teachers as solving anything.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 1:53:04 GMT -5
when i google it i get half of the pages saying there are armed teachers and half saying there aren't...i've done no wrong... OK, I don't know where you have searched. Here is a summary of Israeli education security: ISRAELI LAW
Security Guards
According to officials at the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem and the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C., Israeli law currently requires educational institutions with more than 100 students to post a guard. The Security and Emergency Department within the Israel Police has the overall responsibility to provide security for all schools and surrounding areas, while the guards actually stationed at the schools are generally employed by private security companies working with local authorities. The principal of each school oversees the specific security arrangements, and must appoint a designated security aide to assist with these arrangements.
By law, the guard must check the school site 30 minutes before school starts. He or she then checks people and vehicles entering the school and can permit or refuse entry to unauthorized people. The guard is generally stationed at the school entrance and is responsible for security outside the school (but not internal security issues, like fights between students). In the event of actual hostile activity (essentially terrorist in nature), the guard must engage with the attacker or attackers.
In the last Knesset (the Israeli legislature), a bill was introduced authorizing guards to intervene in certain cases inside schools. This was in response to a perceived rise in non-terror-related violent incidents in schools (i.e., fights between students). The proposal failed.
Authorization to Carry Firearms in Schools
The law permits the following people to carry firearms in schools:
1. the guards (provided they are the security company's property and not their own weapons),
2. authorized Education Ministry personnel using ministry firearms,
3. the police, and
4. the army.
According to the U.S. and Israeli embassies, the lawful purposes for carrying firearms are to (1) protect school personnel and students, (2) create a sense of security, (3) deter the ill-intentioned, and (4) provide self-defense. The guard must possess a valid license to carry guns issued by the Ministry of Public Security and the Israel Police. The qualifications of the license holder normally include a high school diploma, clean record, and weapons training. Additionally, strict protocols and guidance exist regarding carrying a weapon and the types of weapons that can be carried. I don't see teachers liking the extra responsibility for nothing. Most are over loaded and under paid as it is. As a former teacher in a locked school (it was to keep people in rather than to keep them out) the last thing I wanted available to my students was a potential weapon. It would be interesting to know how many people who want to arm the teachers have ever faced a weapon that can discharge about 500 rounds per minute. That is about 8 high velocity rounds per second while they are standing with a handgun perhaps holding 15 rounds. I don't see arming teachers as solving anything. ummm a kid isn't gonna get anywhere near 500 rounds per minute esp. if being fire back at maybe an adult with some training could odds are its gonna go something like this... www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCSySuemiHU
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Post by rational on Feb 23, 2018 2:04:48 GMT -5
ummm a kid isn't gonna get anywhere near 500 rounds per minute esp. if being fire back at maybe an adult with some training could odds are its gonna go something like this... www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCySuemiHUSome bump stocks will deliver 800 rounds per minute. All you need is the rifle, a bump stock, and a high capacity magazine. The odds for the teacher with a handgun are poor. But I will leave it to you to sell the idea to the teachers.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 2:14:35 GMT -5
ummm a kid isn't gonna get anywhere near 500 rounds per minute esp. if being fire back at maybe an adult with some training could odds are its gonna go something like this... www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCySuemiHUSome bump stocks will deliver 800 rounds per minute. All you need is the rifle, a bump stock, and a high capacity magazine. The odds for the teacher with a handgun are poor. But I will leave it to you to sell the idea to the teachers. like i said 200 teachers or so have already volunteered more will follow if they are extended that right plus armed guards....not that the cowardly parkland guard did anything though... yes bumpfire stocks do increase how fast you can unload a magazine but a kid trying it? i would like seeing it demonstrated...
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Post by Gene on Feb 23, 2018 5:42:45 GMT -5
i believe in isreal they have armed the teachers and have armed guards its worked for a couple decades or so. I would like to agree with you but in that case we would both be wrong.
By policy teachers in Israel are not armed. Security is usually maintained by a single entrance guarded by army personal - not to guard against random shooters but against terrorists. Ha! I think you should make that part of your signature, Rats.
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Post by rational on Feb 23, 2018 10:01:10 GMT -5
Some bump stocks will deliver 800 rounds per minute. All you need is the rifle, a bump stock, and a high capacity magazine. The odds for the teacher with a handgun are poor. But I will leave it to you to sell the idea to the teachers. like i said 200 teachers or so have already volunteered more will follow if they are extended that right plus armed guards....not that the cowardly parkland guard did anything though... There is no reason to believe that he acted any differently than any guard might have acted and certainly the probability of how a teacher would react. I am not a kid but have limited experience and went through 50 rounds in seconds. What makes you think it is difficult?
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 23, 2018 12:38:58 GMT -5
Arming teachers has to be one of the worse ideas ever. Is there anywhere in the world where that is the solution? i believe in isreal they have armed the teachers and have armed guards its worked for a couple decades or so. And in the US we also have armed teachers and armed guards ... at correctional institutions. Otherwise we have armed guards in American schools, including Parkland FL. It made for a fair fight in the end, though, didn't it?
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