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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 23:37:35 GMT -5
Nothing.
Karl
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 23:49:55 GMT -5
"Really.... that is a change. In the past I asked you how much money you get from your congregation monthy and you told us you weren't able to discuss it..... Now you said "NOTHING." hmmmmm.
Where do you get money for your foood?
God provides
Paying gas for your car?
Same
Money for kids to buy clothes?
yet again
Who is making your mortage payments? Don't own a home
Auto insurance? I make the payments
health insurance for your family, Karl? Only the kids have it. God keeps me healthy.
Thanks, in advance.
You are inaccurate as to our past discussions about my salary Nathan. I never said that I wasn't able to discuss it. Karl
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Post by to Karl on Jun 4, 2007 7:11:16 GMT -5
But I'm not a hireling. I am not paid anything by any church/congregation/denomination/religious group/ etc. What pray tell are you talking about? Karl I am waiting for an honest answer, Karl. Are you answering my question,by asking me what I am talking about? OK, the question is: Do you know what an 'hireling' is? Can you give an example of who an 'hireling' is ?
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Post by imnx2 on Jun 4, 2007 7:24:38 GMT -5
Wow.... are you saying Dennis Jacobson, Paul Abenroth, and Edgar Massey and many workers who are married through the last 100 years gave into the temptation of lust of the flesh as well? Wow... that is quite a pathetic MIND you have. Those you name are also former members besides being former workers. Likely their experiences in leaving the work might be different from yours. If I remember correctly, you left the work and married an outsider in about three months and you had met this outsider and started courting her while you were in the work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2007 7:39:00 GMT -5
But I'm not a hireling. I am not paid anything by any church/congregation/denomination/religious group/ etc. What pray tell are you talking about? Karl I am waiting for an honest answer, Karl. Are you answering my question,by asking me what I am talking about? OK, the question is: Do you know what an 'hireling' is? Can you give an example of who an 'hireling' is ? Yes. Roger Clemens. Karl
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2007 7:41:15 GMT -5
~~~ N9) Really.... that is a change. In the past I asked you how much money you get from your congregation monthy and you told us you weren't able to discuss it..... Now you said "NOTHING." hmmmmm.Where do you get money for your foood?
1) Karl wrote: God provides~~~ N9: Wow... may I ask you how does God provide you?2) Paying gas for your car? Same~~~ N9: How? can you tell us how God provide you?3) Money for kids to buy clothes? yet again~~~ N9: How does God provides your kids with clothes?4) Who is making your mortage payments? Don't own a home~~~ N9) So your congregation is providing a place for your family to live, right?5) Auto insurance? I make the payments~~~ N9: Where do you get money to make your auto Insurance? when you don't get paid from your congregation monthly?6) health insurance for your family, Karl? Only the kids have it. God keeps me healthy.~~~ N9) Who is paying for the kids? the congregation. There are some qualitites that you have I admire, Karl..... I do hope you can affort to buy health insurance for you and your wife. These days hospital bills are VERY VERY expensive to pay. 7) Karl wrote: You are inaccurate as to our past discussions about my salary Nathan. I never said that I wasn't able to discuss it. ~~~ N9: Thanks, for your honesty.... So you do get paid by the congregation monthly.... around 30,000 + dollars a year is my guess... am I close?No I do not, and you are not. Karl
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Post by Roger C on Jun 4, 2007 7:53:43 GMT -5
I am waiting for an honest answer, Karl. Are you answering my question,by asking me what I am talking about? OK, the question is: Do you know what an 'hireling' is? Can you give an example of who an 'hireling' is ? Yes. Roger Clemens. Karl No, Jesus was not talking about baseball players , when he warned us to not follow the 'hireling' shepard. Try again.
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Post by Need 2 Know on Jun 4, 2007 9:04:25 GMT -5
What is wrong in telling us how much you receive your monthly check from your congregation? Why are you afraid to tell us how much to receive monthly to pay your bills, etc.. What is that to you?
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 4, 2007 9:14:33 GMT -5
Nathan are you implying that anyone who is a Pastor or such should be considered a hireling. (i.e.: that because they get paid they really do not care for the flock)?
I have met some very sincere and honest paid ministers who do not put their pay above the Gospel and Evangelizing. I Just met a man who is a Baptist and was moved into the work. He sold his stuff and set out to Hungry. Yes, as I understand it, he will have the church body support his mission. I nothing wrong with it as I believe it was the HOLY SPIRIT which called him and not the thought of making money. His goal is to Preach the Gospel
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timber
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Post by timber on Jun 4, 2007 9:15:16 GMT -5
Maybe I don't get it, but what is wrong with compensating workers/pastors/priests/ministers, etc. They are providing a benefit - why would someone want to muzzle the ox as the scripture puts it? A hireling is someone who says what the congregation wants them to say for the benefit of money, IMO. Usually a lot of it, I would imagine. Who the heck goes into the ministry to make money? Surely there are alot of other occupations (stock broker, etc) that would compensate a whole lot more??
I realize that what is being implied is that if a minister,etc is being paid a salary, they are beholden to please the ones providing the salary. Is there any actual proof that this is what happens? Do we pay a doctor to deny that we have cancer? Do we pay a mechanic to tell us that our car is perfectly fine? Are our teachers paid to give an A to students who do F caliber work?
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Post by lacpastorunplugged on Jun 4, 2007 9:18:19 GMT -5
~~~ N9: Thanks, for your honesty.... So you do get paid by the congregation monthly.... around 30,000 + dollars a year is my guess... am I close?1) Karl wrote: No I do not, and you are not. What is wrong in telling us how much you receive your monthly check from your congregation? Why are you afraid to tell us how much to receive monthly to pay your bills, etc.. I told you 0, zero, nothing, zip, nicht, nada. I'm done with this conversation since, by your insistence, you don't believe me anyway... Karl
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 4, 2007 9:37:55 GMT -5
Maybe I don't get it, but what is wrong with compensating workers/pastors/priests/ministers, etc. They are providing a benefit - why would someone want to muzzle the ox as the scripture puts it? A hireling is someone who says what the congregation wants them to say for the benefit of money, IMO. Usually a lot of it, I would imagine. Who the heck goes into the ministry to make money? Surely there are alot of other occupations (stock broker, etc) that would compensate a whole lot more?? I realize that what is being implied is that if a minister,etc is being paid a salary, they are beholden to please the ones providing the salary. Is there any actual proof that this is what happens? Do we pay a doctor to deny that we have cancer? Do we pay a mechanic to tell us that our car is perfectly fine? Are our teachers paid to give an A to students who do F caliber work? I believe you have touched the issue very good. 1 Sa 8:3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
The above verse are used quite often to support the hireling aspect. One must understand as you have stated that most who go into a Christian Mission (Pastor, Minister etc.etc) do it because they are so moved In FAITH. analogy; Hum now lets see, what do I want to be when I grow up. Humm: I guess I will go to Theological College so that I can become a minister and make money...... No I don't think so. We know there are scamers out there but they are so obvious that it is hard to believe anyone follows them. The Devil really puts the HEX on those poor souls.--But then we have the vast majority of other ministers, pastors and even workers who are there for that very reason. TO SAVE LOST PEOPLE. If they get a paid salary, so what? We have to keep in mind one very serious difference. It is as follows: "filthy lucre".SYLLABICATION: lu-cre PRONUNCIATION: lkr NOUN: Money or profits. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Latin lucrum. See lau- in Appendix I. WORD HISTORY: When William Tyndale translated aiskhron kerdos, “shameful gain” (Titus 1:11), as filthy lucre in his edition of the Bible, he was tarring the word lucre for the rest of its existence. But we cannot lay the pejorative sense of lucre completely at Tyndale's door. He was merely a link, albeit a strong one, in a process that had begun long before with respect to the ancestor of our word, the Latin word lucrum, “material gain, profit.” This process was probably controlled by the inevitable conjunction of profit, especially monetary profit, with evils such as greed. In Latin lucrum also meant “avarice,” and in Middle English lucre, besides meaning “monetary gain, profit,” meant “illicit gain.” A man to fails his oath [it is a sad thing for a man to betray his oath for monetary gain].” Tyndale thus merely helped the process along when he gave us the phrase filthy lucre. So you can see that the context is that a person who betrays his oath for monetary gain is the real issue here. The verses I first quoted were not just about taking money but really about (GREED) It is about illict gain or profit.
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 4, 2007 9:49:34 GMT -5
After Thoughts.
Shepherds tending to their flock. Does the flock belong to them.
So then you have this large flock of sheep on a hill side. One who has a vested interest in the flock (They Own the Sheep) sees a wolf and goes out in front to combat the wolf away from the sheep.
The owner has a helper (hireling) who will not be impacted by the death of any sheep from the wolf. Hence they put their life above the protection of the sheep and run. All the pay they received from the owner of the sheep was "ill gotten" in that when it came time to protect they ran away.
I will say that most who are in any Christian Mission are there for the flocks protection and to Preach the Gospel Of Christ. Not for just the money.
12: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14: Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
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Post by Need 2 Know on Jun 4, 2007 13:12:45 GMT -5
What is wrong in asking? Why don't you give Karl time to answer a simple question. I know many on here would like to know the answer. Let us wait and see. The wrong in asking is in the why you ask. Other posts on here do not take time away from Karl to post. I doubt many on here want to know Karl's finances. By the way, do you have a reply to this: Those you name are also former members besides being former workers. Likely their experiences in leaving the work might be different from yours. If I remember correctly, you left the work and married an outsider in about three months and you had met this outsider and started courting her while you were in the work.
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timber
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Post by timber on Jun 4, 2007 13:18:50 GMT -5
Thank you for your posts Charles. They were very informative.
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Post by Need 2 Know on Jun 4, 2007 15:00:59 GMT -5
The wrong in asking is in the why you ask. Other posts on here do not take time away from Karl to post. I doubt many on here want to know Karl's finances. By the way, do you have a reply to this: Those you name are also former members besides being former workers. Likely their experiences in leaving the work might be different from yours. If I remember correctly, you left the work and married an outsider in about three months and you had met this outsider and started courting her while you were in the work. Where do you get the idea I was courting her while I was in the work?
Why? do you need to know. why? do you want information about my private life when you don't even post under your real name? what are you so afraid of? and why are you hiding in the dark posting with many alias and anonymous? and you expect me to tell you the answer to your question. I don't think so.
You like to ask questions but don't want others to ask you the similiar questions about you? that is why you post as hit and run anonymous? so you can disappear without answrering questions to you because we don't know who you are.
So when I ignore the alias posters next time then you know why? I like two ways conversation....
I'd like to hear Karl's answers if you don't try diverting the attention or change the subject. I am still waiting to hear from Karl.You made personal observations and speculations on former workers and former members. Just thought you'd be willing to reply about yours. As for Karl, did you read: "I'm done with this conversation since, by your insistence, you don't believe me anyway... Karl"
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Post by nutcase on Jun 4, 2007 15:13:38 GMT -5
And I answered back .... I will believe him... so just tell me, Karl. GROW UP Nathan!
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Post by a believer on Jun 4, 2007 15:44:35 GMT -5
Did you not have all your financial needs paid for by the church when you were a worker, Nathan? So why are you interested in knowing how much Karl gets? I would hope that he would get something from the congregation - in fact I would hope that he would get all his needs supplied just as the workers do - but he says he gets nothing, but you keeping asking how much. You don't want others asking about your private life but you ask Karl about his.
How much money a week do you get Nathan? The truth is I am not interested in how much money you get it is none of my business the same as how much money Karl gets from his church is none of your business.
The workers get all the money they want and they don't even do any work for it except preach a couple of times a week and visit others to eat their food, unlike most ministers who are at their church available to minister and help people all week. I've had many workers ring to come for a meal, which is the same as asking for a meal. If a minister outside of the workers church gets money they are hireling, if a worker gets money he is a true servant of God.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2007 16:04:21 GMT -5
From what I know of Karl's situation, I can confirm he is even more going in faith than any "workers," and getting nothing by way of a salary from a group of people. Nadda, zippo like he already said, but not believed anyway. Karl, I wish WE were fellowshipping together, and your soon to be new mother was near us so we could be helping her out in little ways.
My shingles are now past the contagious stage, though still very painful at times, and I could at least help care for other children from time to time, remembering when others did the same for us in times of our need. And some HAVE helped us meet our needs when we were desperate. God knows with us who they are, and with each memory of them, I beg my God to be rewarding them openly. I'm sure Karl does the same.
Nathan, quit posting like a jerk just because you can't figure something out!
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Post by to nathan on Jun 4, 2007 16:49:37 GMT -5
hey nathan,
dennis didn't call you a jerk. He said that you were posting like one.
There is a difference...and he is right. You are posting like a jerk.
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Post by saying goes on Jun 4, 2007 16:55:35 GMT -5
hey nathan, dennis didn't call you a jerk. He said that you were posting like one. There is a difference...and he is right. You are posting like a jerk. it takes one jerk to know one.
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Post by really on Jun 4, 2007 17:36:54 GMT -5
hey nathan, dennis didn't call you a jerk. He said that you were posting like one. There is a difference...and he is right. You are posting like a jerk. it takes one jerk to know one. Welcome to the family.
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Post by church boards job on Jun 4, 2007 19:50:33 GMT -5
The board meets to decide how much to ''give'' the preacher.
Whatever choice of wording is probably due to making an attempt to not appear as an 'hireling'. I am sure if the board said they 'hired' a preacher for $xxx that someone would object to that language.
It is extremely unusual for a preacher to continue preaching at a church without any compensation atall.
My hunch is that our friend Karl does not like the wording 'hireling'.....but yet he does not know what it means, as there is a gray area between what we call a contracted salary, and a 'pay to preach' or pass the plate collection.
Why does so many churches pass the plate , when we know that is soo wrong, eh.
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Post by Under tht Table on Jun 4, 2007 23:01:28 GMT -5
The envelops pass. From the hands of the congregation to the workers hand. After the gospel meetings, during the home visits, when they visit the Sunday meetings, at the special meetings and conventions. And then not to forget the rich benefactors.
So without the plate the hand off of cash is the same as collection in any other church with one exception. IT IS ABOVE THE TABLE AND NOT HIDDEN.
No some have had terrible problems in their homes and the Hirelings run because they do not want to get involved. They do not care for their flock. They come out like the pharisees to point fingers and that is all.
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Post by I dont know on Jun 5, 2007 0:56:29 GMT -5
I don't know exactly how (by what method) they received money to support their ministry... do you, Nathan?
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Post by freely given on Jun 5, 2007 1:41:14 GMT -5
I don't know exactly how (by what method) they received money to support their ministry... do you, Nathan? Do you know any preacher that believes that the gospel should be freely preached. Most hirelings charge for their preaching. huh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2007 7:01:15 GMT -5
I don't know exactly how (by what method) they received money to support their ministry... do you, Nathan? Do you know any preacher that believes that the gospel should be freely preached. Most hirelings charge for their preaching. huh. Actually, this scripture has nothing to do with money, even though we used to hear it that way many years ago. Substitute the word "undeservedly" for "freely" and the real meaning of what Jesus said comes clear. Of couse it is true that the workers need money to operate and they receive it from the friends. The only significant difference from most churches is that it is all done without direct solicitation, although some claim there is indirect solicitaion in a couple of ways. One is to write letters. People often respond with a letter and cash. The other is to stay at homes. Calling someone up to stay at their home for a few days does result in boarding and lodging which has an implied value, plus the folks where they stay will usually give the some money. I think it could be argued that the request for lodging is a direct solicitation for non cash funding. However, I have never heard a worker directly ask for cash. The whole system probably works financially because such low overheads, free lodging&transportation, and workers with no children mean the workers require a much smaller cash income than any other pastor. So I would would expect that that average friend pays far less to maintain the system than any other church goer, even taking into account the implied value of lodging given throughout the year. The big contributors in a non cash way are the meeting homes. Although there is little cash operating cost involved, this is a fairly major contribution for those who do it. It would be difficult to put a $ value on providing the meeting home, but there is still a cost in terms of time to maintain the home, set up the meeting room and take it down.
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Post by Low Overhead on Jun 5, 2007 9:20:05 GMT -5
Oh come on now.
Who pays for the cars that are used? Who pays for the insurances? Who pays for the upgrades to convention grounds, some of which have been to the tune of $200,000? Who pays for the Airplane tickets back and fourth to other countries, which I might add are multiple counties in many cases: to the tune of $4000? Who pays for the energy used in all the places? Who pays for the rental halls?
This is not chump change. The big difference is that fundings in other churches and payments for the pastors is above board for all to review as they have and open administration. Under the table is no longer valid as there is a large exchange of funds.
Does anyone in the congregation have claim to the property enhancements of convention grounds if the owners die and pass it on to family members who are not 2x2's? Who reaps the increase in property value of those properties?
The congregation by ignorance and submission are helping privilaged one to have financial gain. It goes beyond just supporting the workers. I believe that it is time to make the F&W's a 501(3)c. Then the Conventions grounds truely will stay in the church and all the fund given by the congregation stay in the loop of support of the church.
Another point. I know of a family who had sunday morning meetings was planing to build a new house and the workers gave them money to extend the size of the house just to acomodate meetings. It was kept hush hush from the rest of the congregation. The Son of the elder who was my close friend told me how this came about. Question: Who reaps the reward of funds given by the congregation in this case?
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