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Post by sunshinefromheaven on May 31, 2007 0:47:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your post Bert. 1) Timber wrote: Would you say that the itinerant ministry of today is an exact pattern of that found in the New Testament? ~~~ N9: I am NOT Bert... but I hope you don't mind me jump in. My answer is "Yes" to your #1. question. 2) Timber wrote: Where does it record women going out 2x2? ~~~ N9) There has always been women apotles or preachers in the New Testament. There are documents among the Vaudois apostles (70-1800 A.D.) there has always been Women apostles or preaching going 2x2 just like the2x2 men Itinerant ministry among their groups..... there has been different Protestants groups who have women Itinerant preachers.3) Timber wrote: Where do we read of a bunch of those in the ministry getting together to preach to people for 4 days? ~~~ N9: Didn't the apostles and disciples did that in Acts 2? It has been recorded in the their church history that the Vaudois apostles had conventions where the preachers and believers get together to worship, praise God and send out their new preachers with an older companions.4) Timber wrote: Does the ministry in the New Testament, besides being evangelists, take on the role of elders? ~~~ N9: What are you talking here? Can you clarify, please. Thanks.6) Timber wrote: Today's elders in the 2x2 church are more like deacons, IMO. ~~~ N9: What did the church elders and deacons did in the New Testament do you know? 7) Timber wrote: Were any of the ministry in the New Testament married? ~~~ N9: Peter and a few others apostles were married but most of them were NOT married just like Jesus. There were a few married apostles among the Vaudois Apostles but most of them were NOT... UMMM- WHAT?
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Lets See What Bert Says
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Post by Lets See What Bert Says on May 31, 2007 0:56:35 GMT -5
bert wasnt drawing any bow with the workers - he just wondered if the disciples helped Jesus preach does it say that Jesus did all the talking for 3 days? no, so dont say it is or isnt true your attention to SOME bits of the holy word is impressive - but dont swat at knats and swallow camels Berts reply #22 Question 1. Thanks for your post Bert. Would you say that the itinerant ministry of today is an exact pattern of that found in the New Testament?Bert in this answer is linking the 2x2 (Workers) Ministry with the first Diciples.Question #2 quote - Where does it record women going out 2x2?Question #3 quote - Where do we read of a bunch of those in the ministry getting together to preach to people for 4 days?Question directly related to the convention type ministry of the 2x2 workers and the parallel of where it comes from. i.e (exact pattern of that found in the New Testament?) Extension of Question 1# Berts answer: And so on..... As you can clearly see the pretext and context was directly related to a question of where in the Gospels does it spell out a Convention type gathering. Bert stated clearly I am sure Jesus didn't do all the talking This is my major point of my statement agains Berts reasoning. He most certainly is and was drawing linkage to the Workers and the 2x2 convention based on Pretext and Context of the questions and discussion. I find them in error. I will stand by my statements that Bert adds to the Gosple to jusify what he want to believe.
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Post by Brad Lewis on May 31, 2007 0:58:19 GMT -5
Say an entire city, such as New York (population nearly ten million,) was to profess. If there were 20 people per church service then I suppose you would have half a million home churches. It scales up and down wonderfully. At one stage such a scenario probably took place (ie 2nd and 3rd centuries AD.) If they all professed, it would be hell. Crime would go through the roof. Adultery rampant. Professing kids sleeping with each other. Abortions. Slander Libel. THe only thing worse would be if they all went in the work and then became overseers. Brad
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Post by PS to last post on May 31, 2007 1:02:11 GMT -5
I forgot a critical piece of info. Quote from Berts answer:
Bert was linking the Sermon on the Mount for Three Days as the time when perhaps Jesus let the Diciples preach also. I do not agree and Scripture says not of the sort. It is pure speculation on Berts part. Revisionist Gospel to fit the 2x2 dream. It says clearly Jesus spoke. I see not indication that Jesus allowed the Diciples to speak.
The Diciples were being taught at the same time. They were still students. ;D
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Post by You Would not KNow on May 31, 2007 1:07:51 GMT -5
Say an entire city, such as New York (population nearly ten million,) was to profess. If there were 20 people per church service then I suppose you would have half a million home churches. It scales up and down wonderfully. At one stage such a scenario probably took place (ie 2nd and 3rd centuries AD.) If they all professed, it would be hell. Crime would go through the roof. Adultery rampant. Professing kids sleeping with each other. Abortions. Slander Libel. THe only thing worse would be if they all went in the work and then became overseers. Brad Yea but it would be all covered up for the sake of the Kingdom of 2x2's No one would know and since so many would be joining I believe the law enforcement would be covering for them. Probably kick backs. Now Now don't speak of these things or you will be branded as not having a right spirit and unwilling.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2007 9:37:35 GMT -5
This question - "Where do we read of a bunch of those in the ministry getting together to preach to people for 4 days?" was answered. No it wasn't. Only Jesus is spoken of as speaking, and there is no reason to believe that the apostles spoke, because they were His direct audience. The whole way that Matthew sets up this "sermon" is a classic example of how a rabbi would call his students/disciples around him and begin to teach/speak to them. "5:1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying... Alfred Edersheim's "Sketches of Jewish Social Life" gives great insight into situations like that. It can be found online for reading at www.studylight.org/his/bc/edr/sjc/Karl
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Post by yuppers on May 31, 2007 11:43:26 GMT -5
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Post by imnx2 on May 31, 2007 12:10:37 GMT -5
Nathan9: Peter and a few others apostles were married but most of them were NOT married just like Jesus.
IMNX2: Scripture please on the "most of them were NOT married".
Nathan9: Ok... I say most of the 12 apostles were NOT married... Paul, Timothy, Silas, John Mark, Luke were NOT married....
Barnabas was one of the 70 apostles in Luke 10 was NOT married.
So can you show me in the scriptures how many apostles were married. Thanks.
(No scripture.)
IMNX2: Forget it.
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Post by to Bert on Jun 1, 2007 3:02:27 GMT -5
So does Bert believe there are non 2X2 Christians?
If so the form is irrelevant.
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Post by Math on Jun 1, 2007 7:04:51 GMT -5
Nathan9: Ok... I say most of the 12 apostles were NOT married... Paul, Timothy, Silas, John Mark, Luke were NOT married....
Barnabas was one of the 70 apostles in Luke 10 was NOT married.Not only is youer english bad, so is your math. First you say MOSt of the 12 Apostles were NOT married - well Paul, Timothy and Sials weren't of the 12 that leaves 2. Even an amatuer would not conclude that 2 out of 12 equals MOST. Then you say Barnabas being ONE out 70 equals MOST. Do you even think? ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2007 7:57:44 GMT -5
For some, facts are fluid...and they flow, bend and shift like the currents on a river.
Karl
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Post by imnx2 on Jun 1, 2007 21:29:10 GMT -5
I understand, no problmen if you can't find the verses to back it up. Thanks, for your honesty. Well, you couldn't forget it. Nathan9, you either lack understanding or deliberately twist things or you twist hings now without thinking (deceit becoming habitual with you). Nathan9, you said most apostles were not married and then I asked you for the scripture that supports your contention. You replied without giving the scripture. So, I said just forget it. Then in ignorance or in your twisting (either with intent or out of habit) you changed the "scripture proof" to be my responsibility and my failing. Nathan9, you are the one that should provide the scripture and not anyone's history, but from the Bible. In my understanding there is scripture about married apostles in only one book of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 9:5 King James Version (KJV) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? King James Version (KJV) Public Domain Amplified Bible (AMP) Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas (Peter)? Amplified Bible (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation New Living Translation (NLT) Don’t we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers do, and as Peter does? New Living Translation (NLT) Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) have we not authority a sister -- a wife -- to lead about, as also the other apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Public Domain
Darby Translation (DARBY) have we not a right to take round a sister [as] wife, as also the other apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Darby Translation (DARBY) Public Domain The apostles could and did marry and how many does not matter.
The workers neither lead about (take a) wife nor have power to do so. Yes, there were a couple exceptions when marriage was required of workers, not done for the sake of marriage, but for the sake of the workers message. And please, leave your Broadbent and your Vaudois history out of this.
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Post by few or many on Jun 1, 2007 23:09:25 GMT -5
Say an entire city, such as New York (population nearly ten million,) was to profess. If there were 20 people per church service then I suppose you would have half a million home churches. It scales up and down wonderfully. At one stage such a scenario probably took place (ie 2nd and 3rd centuries AD.) That would sure make for a confusing union Sunday. Confusing? hmmmm, ok then when someones speaks on that verse that says narrow is the way and few there be that find it, might be seen in a different perspective.. .....MANY there be that find it!!! Why is that so, anyways...?
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Post by And The on Jun 1, 2007 23:21:17 GMT -5
Well, you couldn't forget it. Nathan9, you either lack understanding or deliberately twist things or you twist hings now without thinking (deceit becoming habitual with you). Nathan9, you said most apostles were not married and then I asked you for the scripture that supports your contention. You replied without giving the scripture. So, I said just forget it. Then in ignorance or in your twisting (either with intent or out of habit) you changed the "scripture proof" to be my responsibility and my failing. Nathan9, you are the one that should provide the scripture and not anyone's history, but from the Bible. In my understanding there is scripture about married apostles in only one book of the Bible. 1 Corinthians 9:5 King James Version (KJV) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? King James Version (KJV) Public Domain Amplified Bible (AMP) Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas (Peter)? Amplified Bible (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation New Living Translation (NLT) Don’t we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers do, and as Peter does? New Living Translation (NLT) Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT) have we not authority a sister -- a wife -- to lead about, as also the other apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Public Domain
Darby Translation (DARBY) have we not a right to take round a sister [as] wife, as also the other apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Darby Translation (DARBY) Public Domain The apostles could and did marry and how many does not matter.
The workers neither lead about (take a) wife nor have power to do so. Yes, there were a couple exceptions when marriage was required of workers, not done for the sake of marriage, but for the sake of the workers message. And please, leave your Broadbent and your Vaudois history out of this. From the New Testament according to I Cor. 9:5 there were ONLY a very small number were married apostles compared to the "MAJORITY" unmarried apostles.
Yes, I've read about I Cor. 9:5 many times....
There has been a small numbered of married workers/preachers within the 2x2s fellowship... According to the scriptures the number of Single or unmarried apostles always out numbered the married apostles.
I don't think too many workers today want to marry and stay in the work.... You had to be in the work to understand the practical sides of it. It is too stressful as it is why do you want to add more stress to your life. ;D
For me I would NOT married and be in the 2x2s Itinerant ministry.... It is NOT very practical for the lifestyle to live.... It can be done but not for me, Thanks. So I say JESUS showed us the RIGHT example to follow as an Itinerant preacher of the Gospel.
So I say there were ONLY a handful apostles were married the rest of the apostles followed Jesus' example.... Jesus and most of the apostles in the New Testament WERE unmarried for sake of the Gospel to keep their lives freely from the care of the family.
;D According to Broabent and other Church historians sources.... MOST of the Vaudois apostles (70-1800) and many groups which believed and have similiar apostlolic teachings were UNMARRIED .... a very few of the apostles were married.
I mentioned to you in the previous post that 11 apostles were NOT married except Peter.... It seems James, the Lord brother was married and maybe a few others apostles then that was it.... BUT the REST of the apostles were UNMARRIED like Jesus was.
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Post by SO on Jun 2, 2007 23:09:42 GMT -5
So who was Jesus help mate? Wasn't he alone? and unmarried? What is going on here. I think most of the apostles did NOT have a help mate (wife) either.... Have you ever wonder Why, did they want to be alone? ;D
The answer is found in Matthew 19: 10-12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.So are you saying Jesus was a eunuch? Are you saying the Apostles were eunuchs? Which workers were eunuchs? Are you a eunuchs? Your answer is lacking stuff.
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truth4me
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Eph. 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God."
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Post by truth4me on Jun 3, 2007 0:40:37 GMT -5
Maybe once we all understand what The Church really is ... then it will make sense. Is not the church the Body of Christ? Not only referred to the building to house the believers called a church, but we, the believers of Christ - the 2nd person of the Trinity - are the church. Some are right in saying, and quoting scripture, that the Lord dwells not in temples made with hands, but in the fleshly tables of the heart, or something like that. And you're right, the church 'building' is not where Jesus lives - but it's a place where believers go to praise and worship, because we all can't fit in side your living room!!
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Post by imnx2 on Jun 3, 2007 0:52:18 GMT -5
[3) Which workers were eunuchs? ~~~ The ones who are truly called and chosen for His harvest field.4) Are you a eunuchs? ~~~ Yes, I was. Many called but few are chosen.He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. You couldn't receive it, so you must not have been chosen.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Jun 3, 2007 2:40:41 GMT -5
Satan has called, Nathan has answered. Here, send me. Brad
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Post by In the know on Jun 3, 2007 5:03:47 GMT -5
Interesting fact............(don't ask me to name names....not nice to tell on people) Many of the brother and sister workers have "hooked up" in moments of fleshly weakness. I have letters written between some of them attesting to this in their own words.
The workers are only human with humanly urges and desires. Not so easily suppressed some times.
Eunuchs they might desire and profess to be. Humans thery are. Think about it.
And no, I won't be baited into revealing anymore info on the subject. Just think about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 22:24:55 GMT -5
He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. You couldn't receive it, so you must not have been chosen. haha.... I received but now I've moved on to a different calling. This calling you don't have to give up all your possessions . Anyone can do it, friends or workers. ;D
There is nothing wrong to be called of God and be in His Itinerant ministry at all. It is a Great privilege and an honor calling! I enjoyed mine privileged as a 2x2 worker very much. I'd NOT trade my experienced for anything. What a load! Nathan, I can't believe what you just wrote. THE call of God is to leave everything and seek Him alone. Way to justify your life choices, and rationalize the obvious conflicts between your words and actions. I really do feel bad for you- you are missing out on one of God's greatest gifts, freedom from self. Romans 12:1-2 , and Mark 10:17-31 make it awfully clear- tack on Matthew 6 ad it is impossible to defend yourself to the word of God. I hope you can see this- for you. I'm not looking down, been there, done that- so I know what pride, arrogance and self justification look like, and it's not pretty on me or anyone else... Karl
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Post by Good For You on Jun 3, 2007 22:53:14 GMT -5
haha.... I received but now I've moved on to a different calling. This calling you don't have to give up all your possessions . Anyone can do it, friends or workers. ;D
There is nothing wrong to be called of God and be in His Itinerant ministry at all. It is a Great privilege and an honor calling! I enjoyed mine privileged as a 2x2 worker very much. I'd NOT trade my experienced for anything. What a load! Nathan, I can't believe what you just wrote. THE call of God is to leave everything and seek Him alone. Way to justify your life choices, and rationalize the obvious conflicts between your words and actions. I really do feel bad for you- you are missing out on one of God's greatest gifts, freedom from self. Romans 12:1-2 , and Mark 10:17-31 make it awfully clear- tack on Matthew 6 ad it is impossible to defend yourself to the word of God. I hope you can see this- for you. I'm not looking down, been there, done that- so I know what pride, arrogance and self justification look like, and it's not pretty on me or anyone else... Karl Glad to hear your human side speak Lacpastor. Going from flesh to spirit is a life changing experience. So is going into the marines or going into the workers ministry. So if you are a catapillar trying to be a butterfly, do the other butterflies laugh? Of course not
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Post by get a job on Jun 3, 2007 22:55:23 GMT -5
haha.... I received but now I've moved on to a different calling. This calling you don't have to give up all your possessions . Anyone can do it, friends or workers. ;D
There is nothing wrong to be called of God and be in His Itinerant ministry at all. It is a Great privilege and an honor calling! I enjoyed mine privileged as a 2x2 worker very much. I'd NOT trade my experienced for anything. What a load! Nathan, I can't believe what you just wrote. THE call of God is to leave everything and seek Him alone. I really do feel bad for you- you are missing out on one of God's greatest gifts, freedom from self. Karl .....ya Karl, I know your heart!! You are full of yourself and your ideas and your ways, and you are blind to the truth of God. You have some strange calling to attack others, when it is only a diversion from your real problem, that being an understanding of what the bible really is trying to say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 23:00:21 GMT -5
No, my real problem is that I won't have complete victory over sin until He comes, or I go to Him. He will make it so. It won't even be my victory, but Christ's alone- and that is just as it should be.
Karl
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 23:01:41 GMT -5
What a load! Nathan, I can't believe what you just wrote. THE call of God is to leave everything and seek Him alone. I really do feel bad for you- you are missing out on one of God's greatest gifts, freedom from self. Karl .....ya Karl, I know your heart!! You are full of yourself and your ideas and your ways, and you are blind to the truth of God. You have some strange calling to attack others, when it is only a diversion from your real problem, that being an understanding of what the bible really is trying to say. So what is the Bible really "trying" to say? Karl
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Post by hmm mmm on Jun 3, 2007 23:06:47 GMT -5
.....ya Karl, I know your heart!! You are full of yourself and your ideas and your ways, and you are blind to the truth of God. You have some strange calling to attack others, when it is only a diversion from your real problem, that being an understanding of what the bible really is trying to say. hmmm, do you know what an 'hireling' is? the bible explains this concept very well, thank you. So what is the Bible really "trying" to say? Karl
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 23:08:49 GMT -5
But I'm not a hireling. I am not paid anything by any church/congregation/denomination/religious group/ etc.
What pray tell are you talking about?
Karl
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2007 23:14:06 GMT -5
Hello?
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Post by to Nathan on Jun 3, 2007 23:22:11 GMT -5
If your so called calling had truly been from God he would have provided for you to continue. Marrying a non 2X2 would not be God's will either according to worker opinion. Moving to your own self appointed position as a defender of sorts of the 2X2's and saying it's from God is delusional.
As a "eunuch" (read worker) you gave into the temptation of lust of the flesh and married an outsider. Where does that fit with the rules of the F&W's?
Who are you kidding?!!!
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