|
Post by fixit on Mar 12, 2017 13:49:39 GMT -5
I think the problem with Jesus Christ is God, is that then he could not have died for our sins. Which sort of throws the whole "... isn't it wonderful what he did for us..." as a "well, he sort of did, ... but not exactly" It seems to be denying that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 14:32:29 GMT -5
Regarding the opening title "Christ is the God-Man; the Word (God) come in the flesh
I'd like to point out that I, as born again of the water and the spirit, am also the God-Man; the Word (God) come here in the flesh. You should therefore listen to me as you would Jesus.
The trinity doctrine is hooey, a distraction, and horribly horribly horribly exclusionary. If you want to correctly call the doctrine anything it's a multiplin-ity... (no laughing now!)
Anyone who says otherwise is denying that God is their father. It's as simple as that. Such are denying what Jesus clearly stated, we are as one, we ARE one, the same as they were and are. If you think or say that Jesus Christ is something more or different than you are, well then you have excluded yourself as being one of his. It is recorded therefore what he'll tell you when you come before him, expecting to be welcomed.
If you have been born again, you and I understand exactly what it was like to be Jesus, and the Christ, here on this earth. And he likewise, fully, understands you. For example, I understand exactly both inspiration, questions, spiritual failures of faith, and born again, as he did.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Mar 12, 2017 15:03:00 GMT -5
Regarding the opening title "Christ is the God-Man; the Word (God) come in the flesh I'd like to point out that I, as born again of the water and the spirit, am also the God-Man; the Word (God) come here in the flesh. You should therefore listen to me as you would Jesus. The trinity doctrine is hooey, a distraction, and horribly horribly horribly exclusionary. If you want to correctly call the doctrine anything it's a multiplin-ity... (no laughing now!) Anyone who says otherwise is denying that God is their father. It's as simple as that. Such are denying what Jesus clearly stated, we are as one, we ARE one, the same as they were and are. If you think or say that Jesus Christ is something more or different than you are, well then you have excluded yourself as being one of his. It is recorded therefore what he'll tell you when you come before him, expecting to be welcomed. If you have been born again, you and I understand exactly what it was like to be Jesus, and the Christ, here on this earth. And he likewise, fully, understands you. For example, I understand exactly both inspiration, questions, spiritual failures of faith, and born again, as he did. @ettu Do you believe that Jesus was in Heaven before he came to earth? My follow up question to this would be; Do you believe Jesus was divine 1. Before he came to earth? 2. While he was on earth? 3. Today? Just so you know - I'm not a "Trinitarian". I'm just wondering what others believe in this regard.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 12, 2017 15:08:46 GMT -5
I think the problem with Jesus Christ is God, is that then he could not have died for our sins. Which sort of throws the whole "... isn't it wonderful what he did for us..." as a "well, he sort of did, ... but not exactly" If Christ is NOT part of the Godhead, we die in our sins. Jesus the son of man part CAN'T die for our sins, because he is tainted with sinful nature which ALL humans inherited from Adam and Eve when they partook the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Without God/Christ incarnated himself in the person/human Jesus there is NO forgiveness of sins. Christ is God (the Son), who came down from heaven, He is able to HELP Jesus the Son of man, to overcome human weakness desires, fleshly lusts, without yielding to sins... Jesus became the perfect Lamb of God.
The blood of the Lamb= Christ/God was shed through a man/Jesus planned before the foundation of the world.
Confusion.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 12, 2017 15:14:20 GMT -5
Psalmist said man cannot redeem his brother. So this would take someone, something far more then being a brother the us. It was our Creator who took our sins upon himself and took our punishment or penalties so that we can be healed with his stripes and cleansed with his blood and be covered by his righteousness.
One of the first workers quoted at the beginning of this thread said that Jesus took on human flesh in order that WE would understand that he understands us.
When Jesus made himself lower then the angels by taking in mortal flesh, he did not leave his heavenly identity behind. He was given mortal identity to add to his immortal identity as God then Father's only begotten Son. No his God's Son did not die on the cross because it was immortal already. He committed his Spirit to the Father's keeping. He was well guarded and kept by an unmeasurable Holy Spirit, for when Marysaw him and he ttold her a message to take to the apostles, that he was going to his God and their God. He had declared before his crucifixion that he had power to lay his life down, and power to take it up again. Which is exactly what he did. It says God raised him up. This means that his God powers raised him up. He possessed the Godhead bodily. He never lost that. That's
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 15:24:06 GMT -5
@ettu Do you believe that Jesus was in Heaven before he came to earth? My follow up question to this would be; Do you believe Jesus was divine 1. Before he came to earth? 2. While he was on earth? 3. Today? Just so you know - I'm not a "Trinitarian". I'm just wondering what others believe in this regard. Hi Jon, yes I believe Jesus was in heaven before he came to earth, but then so are (and were) all of us. And yes, Jesus was as divine as you and I. Either that or god is not as good at creation as we think he is, or else has some self destructive aspects.
|
|
|
Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 12, 2017 15:24:48 GMT -5
Ettu,
I really need to take some time to process what you are saying here. I hardly know where to begin.
You call the idea of the Trinity 'hooey'. You seem to be saying that Jesus is 'no different' to you and me.
Just a couple of questions: did you pre-exist in the form of God before you were born? Are you the eternal Creator of all things? Have you become the Word, the very expression of God on this earth? Are you the Divine, Holy One of Israel incarnate? When you were born again, did you attain the same status as the 'Only-begotten' Son of God? That actually means, the 'Unique, Only, One of a kind' Son of God, the only One who is the exact representation of the Father?
If not, you are talking 'hooey'.
It seems to me that you are confusing two different things. Firstly, Christ has no peer in heaven or earth as the Son of God.
Secondly, through his life, death and resurrection, Jesus has given the right to those who believe in Him to be made the children of God. That is true and it is our new relationship with God our Creator
However, our status as a child of God is by adoption and by grace, not by our inherent nature as being equal with God. You're forgetting that Jesus Christ is also the Creator, our Redeemer, our Saviour, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is the Word of God who was in the beginning with God and who was God.
There is no comparison.
It is a totally different quality of relationship to that unique Father-Son relationship between Christ and the Father. Even a worker, I hope, would get that distinction.
And Fixit, how is what I am saying denying that Jesus came in the flesh?
Jesus, the divine Son of God, humbled himself and came from heaven to be our Saviour. The Word (God, remember?) was made flesh and dwelt among us!
Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God. If you haven't got that yet then you must have been sleeping through the last four pages of posts. sorry, but your suggestion is just as much 'hooey' as the gobbledygook ettu has suggested.
|
|
|
Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 12, 2017 16:02:27 GMT -5
Ettu,
I'm just a bit curious now having re-read what you wrote earlier.
Are you saying you believe we pre-existed as individuals in heaven, or do you mean in the mind of God? If in the mind of God, yes, he knew us before we were in the womb. No problem.
The other thing is are you saying we were no different to Jesus? Because I can assure you that Jesus might have something to say about that.
Another question: are you professing (I hope you are not offended by me asking); do you attend meetings?
If so, do you think your interesting, dare I say unique views about yourself and Jesus are widely shared by other friends and workers?
Just asking.
|
|
|
Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 12, 2017 16:13:21 GMT -5
I wanted to pick up on something Nathan said that you commented on Fixit, by saying 'confusion'.
I must admit when I read what Nathan wrote, I did have to read it again. I think it is the way Nathan expressed it.
If I understand it correctly, what I think Nathan was saying is, if Jesus was only the son of Man/a human (and not the Son of God/divine), then He could not have died for the sins of all mankind, as he would be - just a man. The redemption of our souls is a Divine work. No mere man can give his soul as a ransom for his brother as it says in the scripture. So Jesus needed to be (as one person with two natures) the Son of Man and the Son of God in order to represent us to God, and God to us, in our salvation.
And all of this was planned as 'the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world."
Hope that clears up any confusion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 16:14:12 GMT -5
Psalmist said man cannot redeem his brother. So this would take someone, something far more then being a brother the us. It was our Creator who took our sins upon himself and took our punishment or penalties so that we can be healed with his stripes and cleansed with his blood and be covered by his righteousness. One of the first workers quoted at the beginning of this thread said that Jesus took on human flesh in order that WE would understand that he understands us. When Jesus made himself lower then the angels by taking in mortal flesh, he did not leave his heavenly identity behind. He was given mortal identity to add to his immortal identity as God then Father's only begotten Son. No his God's Son did not die on the cross because it was immortal already. He committed his Spirit to the Father's keeping. He was well guarded and kept by an unmeasurable Holy Spirit, for when Marysaw him and he ttold her a message to take to the apostles, that he was going to his God and their God. He had declared before his crucifixion that he had power to lay his life down, and power to take it up again. Which is exactly what he did. It says God raised him up. This means that his God powers raised him up. He possessed the Godhead bodily. He never lost that. That's Hi SharingTR I understand the patter, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. First of all, if God screwed up making creations that are prone to failure, then he AUGHT to take responsibility, and if he wants to make a show of it... atone for them, ALL of them: and apologize for the trouble it causes everyone too. Of course he doesn't intend to take responsibility for any of his creations that go wrong, it's their fault, and so intends to throw them in a fire to be tortured forever. Sheesh. I must say, as I understand it there's an eastern philosophy that allows for a do over (and over and over as necessary) until you (or he) get it right. I like the part about alternating btwn male & female too, which is sort of in line with heavenly beings perhaps being either sexless, or all male.
|
|
|
Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 12, 2017 16:18:35 GMT -5
Ok,
Fixit, I think you and I have more in common in our basic theology than either of us do with ettu.
I thought I was engaging with a Christian believer who had a unique spin on things.
Apparently not.
Ettu, I think you and I as it stands have only one common ground to stand on - there is a divine being, and we are more than just temporary blips in the universe.
Beyond that, we will just be talking past each other.
Fixit, Jondough, Bert and others who are non-threenessites, I wouldn't depend on ettu's theological insights for any meaningful support if I were you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 17:32:00 GMT -5
The last 50 years the workers have preached and DRILLED into the friends heads, with all sort of false doctrines such as the Word God refers ONLY to the Father, Jesus is NOT God, the Trinity is the RCC doctrine, the Trinity is the devil/hearsy doctrine.... Recently, we find out the early 2x2 workers preached and believed the Trinity, Christ is God comes in the flesh/Jesus... We say WHAT? this teaching has been hidden and NOT taught by the current workers today! No, wonder the friends today are so confuse when they hear about the Trinity, Christ is God belief, because they don't hear it preaches at All.
The friends who left our fellowship and joined other churches, they heard about the Trinity preached and the more they learned about it, they more understanding they KNOW Jesus is God comes in the flesh like the early 2x2 workers had TAUGHT the friends in the early days.
The current workers and the friends are hearing different Jesus Christ is preached now, no wonder they are so confused in who Jesus is. They don't like or want to discuss about the Godhead, the Trinity, Christ is God because they little clues what is all about, and don't understand the subject themselves. ALL they have to say is the word Trinity is NOT in the Bible, the Trinity is the RCC doctrine, the Word God refers ONLY to the Father and NOT the Son, the subject is closed.
Thanks, God for the early workers sermons and some workers writings today, have been preserved who believed and taught the Trinity, Christ is God, the Godhead, the Word God refers to the Father and Son so we can check these things out for ourselves.
The current workers and friends anti-trinity and Christ is NOT God attitude has been around only the last 50 years, it was NOT so when the early 2x2 workers brought the gospel to American and around the world.
The last 50 years the workers have created hundreds, thousands of 2x2 going around preaching Christ is NOT God, anti-trinity believers along with JWs and the Mormons and the friends believed and keep on passing these kind of false doctrines! Come on friends, Wake UP! Bert, fixit, JD, and so on...
Hi Nathan, I really have no problem with Jesus also being the Christ, or I guess you might say (?), fully human and fully god. Fwiw, & as info, George Walker used to always speak of the trinity being like the shamrock. As a picture of 3 as 1. A nice way of describing it, though maybe not as deep as you'd like. Does it make a difference? Yes, but in the scheme of the next 100,000,000 years, and a more perfect world and understanding awaiting, not enough to get overly exercised about. imo. The next few billion years are barely the beginning of eternity, so imo the subject begins to fade to nearly insignificant.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 12, 2017 17:51:07 GMT -5
The more I see of theology, the more I'm turned off by it.
Lots of speculation, assumption, intellectual gymnastics and blind leading the blind.
God's work in man is more in the heart than the intellect...
Galatians 4:6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
Those of us who've received the spirit of God's son into our hearts are happy to leave theology to the theologians.
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Mar 12, 2017 19:45:26 GMT -5
alistairhenderson. Your claim supports the popularity of a belief being a reliable indicator of the credibility of that belief. Approximately 1.8 billion muslims believe that Mohammed flew to heaven on a white horse. The numbers of adherents to a meme is either relevant or it is not. If you deny that the 'man-with-god- like-attributes selected unique equine mode of outer space transport' is a viable option, despite the infinite numbers of people who have claimed this to be truth; then you are negating your grounds for arguing the trinity is a viable claim on the basis of popularity.
|
|
|
Post by Brick on Mar 12, 2017 20:03:23 GMT -5
|
|
jscc1
Junior Member
Posts: 175
|
Post by jscc1 on Mar 12, 2017 20:09:55 GMT -5
Modern liturgy-The Apostles creed in song-youtube. (although first written in the 4th century,it is used by most of those false religions the 2x2s speak of as their Creed,2x2s are in a shambles they themselves are not sure what they believe in,in serving Whom) Just absorb those hymn words summerising christian peoples Faith and belief. www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCBjKL_dEU youtube.com/watch?V=uCBjKL_dEU
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 9:40:38 GMT -5
Ok, -Snip- Ettu, I think you and I as it stands have only one common ground to stand on - there is a divine being, and we are more than just temporary blips in the universe. Beyond that, we will just be talking past each other. Fixit, Jondough, Bert and others who are non-threenessites, I wouldn't depend on ettu's theological insights for any meaningful support if I were you. I realize you are heavily invested in Christianity as you see it, points of which you are trying to persuade Fixit, Jondough, Bert, and others of, but frankly your theology is full of holes. As your head worker of the ex's likes to quote, referring of course to the friends and workers, the workers particularly, when the blind lead the blind, you'll both end up in the ditch. I understand you don't know where to start with my somewhat deliberately provocative post, but your initial weak response indicates your own confusion. But what's worse is the subsequent dismissal per above. Alarmingly reminiscent of the attitude of what workers allegedly tell some friends regarding paying any attention to ex's like you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 10:37:04 GMT -5
I think the problem with Jesus Christ is God, is that then he could not have died for our sins. Which sort of throws the whole "... isn't it wonderful what he did for us..." as a "well, he sort of did, ... but not exactly" If Christ is NOT part of the Godhead, we die in our sins. Jesus the son of man part CAN'T die for our sins, because he is tainted with sinful nature which ALL humans inherited from Adam and Eve when they partook the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Without God/Christ incarnated himself in the person/human Jesus there is NO forgiveness of sins. Christ is God (the Son), who came down from heaven, He is able to HELP Jesus the Son of man, to overcome human weakness desires, fleshly lusts, without yielding to sins... Jesus became the perfect Lamb of God.
The blood of the Lamb= Christ/God was shed through a man/Jesus planned before the foundation of the world.
God needs to quit producing bad product. I know he first tried to clean up his mess with the flood, but unfortunately he didn't address the fundamental problem you pointed out. The ideal he seems to have tried for was to make us as stupid as animals, not knowing right from wrong, so at least we could be innocent on that basis. Who knows,... but I guess for now he's put in place a convoluted, temporary patch to salvage a few otherwise flawed souls, out of the entire bad lot. He seems to not have figured out, or else lost control of the creation of souls process. It's pretty mean though what he intends to do with the rejects. Btw, just a reaction to something you said that I think needs expressing. NO, - WE ARE NOT ALL TOGETHER BORN IN SIN. I don't know if that's what you believe, but anyway it's a phrase commonly said as to why we need a savior. NO, (for example) - children are NOT sinfull, they are innocent. At what age that changes, apparently only God will figure out on judgment day. NO, - You don't have to quickly baptize the offspring of sanctified married couples, in case of premature death to complete their requirements for heaven. If anything, dying in innocence is an easy ticket to heaven.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 20:35:56 GMT -5
Wow, interesting. Thanks for taking the time to answer in depth. Thanks for not being put off by my trial balloons. You are remarkable that way.
FWIW & IMO, Since God created Satan, the fallen angels, and everything else, the results good and bad have to be placed at his feet. Sort of like the Adam and Eve thing, who weren't as perfect, and a little more dangerous, than he thought.
I suppose the drama that's resulted is what keeps things interesting for him through the ages.
Nathan, as you know, I'm usually just passing through here these days. Not sure how much longer.
Good to see you. Hope all is well,
Regards,
Keith
|
|
|
Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 14, 2017 1:47:40 GMT -5
Ettu,
You may imagine my response to you was 'weak', however I think everything I asked you was perfectly reasonable and constitutes a strong challenge to your suggestion that Jesus was 'just like you and I'. I notice you didn't actually seek to answer any of my points.
My wife and I were on holidays around the time of my last post, and I am so relaxed about my views on the subject and the lack of actual substance in your responses (and Bert's and Fixit's) that I haven't bothered getting back on here for more than day and a half.
I think I've said just about everything I need to, because there seems to be a type of invincible ignorance about engaging with the actual scriptures. On the part of Bert and Fixit, I would say as a result of their intensive 'truther' conditioning which I give up on even trying to shift, and in your case, I get the impression you are not actually a believer in any meaningful sense of the word in either the bible or the God of Christianity. Tell me I'm wrong!
This gives you the advantage of having Carte Blanche to rubbish any view without having to argue coherently in support of your own lack of a position. All care and no responsibility as they say.
Fixit, in reference to theology, the word simply means 'the knowledge of God'. Is it not important to you not only to have a relationship, but to understand the nature of the One with whom you relate? Heart and mind were both given to us by God. Both together are surely parallel and complementary modes of 'knowing' God.
When you say, "Those of us who've received the spirit of God's son into our hearts are happy to leave theology to the theologians.", are you deliberately making it sound as if you are part of an elite group who doesn't need to bother with adding to their faith, knowledge? Because that is most surely what it sounds like to me. Condescending, dismissive and self-justifying.
Bert and Brick, I already critiqued that trinity article by the United church of God after Bert put it up the other day. That group is a well-known cult and believes in the so-called 'God family', that is, that the Father and Son (but not the Holy Spirit for some reason) are both God, and that every believer will also be God.
THAT is hardly a reliable source for your argument! It shows a sign of pure desperation to try and counter what you believe is a false concept (the Trinity) with the ramblings of a group who are even further out there in terms of whacko doctrine than the JWs.
Oh, and ettu, you may be being deliberately provocative as you put it. I just took your comments at face value as being what you believe. On that basis only, I really doubt you have even a basic grasp of Christianity, Trinitarian or otherwise.
"God should stop producing trash" or something like that, you said. Provocative? Yep? Valuable contribution to a reasonable discussion? Hardly!
Also, please can you show me where "frankly", my "theology is full of holes"? You haven't given me much to go on if you want to put me straight, now, have you?
|
|
|
Post by Brick on Mar 14, 2017 3:13:05 GMT -5
The one thing that I want you to get straight is that I don't want to put you straight. You're far more entertaining the way you are. I have no stake in convincing you or anyone else that I have the right way of understanding or believing (or abstaining) from trinity doctrine. When I posted the link to the article, I believe I said it was interesting. Not correct. And regardless of its source, I do find it interesting. I read for information, not affirmation.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 14, 2017 4:11:31 GMT -5
Trinitarian dogma is not an issue for most F&W, as far as I can tell.
There seems to be a bunch in Australia who got entangled in it. Is it because of BSF, or did folks attend BSF because of Trinitarianism?
It's man-made Catholic doctrine and seems to do more harm than good when it comes to accepting the meek and lowly Jesus within.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 14, 2017 5:16:20 GMT -5
Fixit, Did you read what the workers said? Are you being wilfully ignorant of what a number of workers have preached, even using the word trinity? There is nothing 'convoluted' about the plain truth. The convolution comes in when people wriggle and squirm and prevaricate and change the subject just to avoid admitting the plain truth of the matter even when it is presented to them on a platter! Ooooh, that rhymes, look at that. It is the workers who spoke about Jesus in clear Trinitarian terms in the quotes we supplied. Are you now saying that those workers are just 'theologians' and that we should leave what they said and ignore it? Are you serious? THEY WERE WORKERS! What about what Jesus and the apostles preached? Doesn't sound like Jesus is God to me when we read the following? It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.(Matthew 20:20-23 KJV) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?(Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV) Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but thy will.(Luke 22:42 KJV) Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46 KJV) Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh John continues: Life eternal is this to know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV) Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19 KJV) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me. (John 8:18 KJV). Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father
I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.(John 20:17 KJV) I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.(John 14:28 KJV) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.(John 5-30) Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God(Mark 10:17-18 KJV) And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV) But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3). For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV) Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.(Hebrews 10) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh,that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.Ephesians 1 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him Revelation 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto himThou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.(Hebrews 1:9) Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD and the name of the city of MY GOD which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 14, 2017 5:23:40 GMT -5
Good post Maryhig
Clearly Jesus had the same God as you and me.
|
|
|
Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 14, 2017 7:05:40 GMT -5
Hi Maryhig,
If there were no other verses that clearly speak of the deity (Godhood) of Christ, then all the verses you have quoted by themselves would seem to indicate that Christ is not one with or equal to the Father. However, those other verses DO clearly exist, and they need to be accepted for what they say and they need to be read alongside (not instead of) the verses you quote. You cannot just ignore them or explain them away.
And Fixit is right! Jesus does have the same God as you and me! Read on.
The most well-known verse affirming the Godhood of Jesus is of course John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
I have to tell you Maryhig that I have no problem whatsoever accepting that and similar verses along with the ones you quoted! Do you also accept the above verse as being clear and true? If so, you are affirming with me that the Word (Christ) is God. So how do you deal with that?
Also, how can this be? How can I, as a 'Trinitarian' believer affirm the verses you have quoted and still be taken seriously? Easy!
The fact that Jesus is fully God has to be seen alongside the fact that he is also fully man. Ok?
When you look at it that way, it is then really a matter of reading things in context. Also known as 'rightly dividing the word of truth'.
Consider in each case (by reading a few verses either side of the verse you quote):
- Is Jesus speaking here as the eternal Son of God (equal in every way with the Father), or
- Is he speaking as the perfect Son of Man, the human being Jesus, who was representing us to God as a fellow human being?
Jesus was wholly and voluntarily submitted to His Father, so as both Son of God and Son of Man he was perfectly obedient all the time.
He always wanted to do and did do the will of his Father, even though it cost him greatly at times, such as in the Garden of Gethsemane.
So none of those verses are a mystery at all, as God the Son (or if you prefer it, the Son of God) was simply obeying God the Father.
He was also able to address God the Father as 'my God' because he was fully human. Does that make sense?
Remember, His human body was a creature like ours, but his inner nature was the Creator (see John 1:1 again). The creature side of Christ cried out to God the Father as His God, of course! No mystery at all.
Also, you need to remember that sometimes when the word 'God' is used, it is referring to the Father only, the Son only, the Holy Spirit only, or all three together, OK? Text needs to be read in context.
Jesus lived, suffered and died as a man representing you and me. He could relate to God the Father as his God from a human perspective. Yet he also had a unique relationship as the Divine Son to the Divine Father as well, which is why he may have been making a distinction by saying 'your God' and 'my God'.
It seems he was on the one hand identifying God the Father as the one we relate to as humans, but also hinting at a deeper intimacy that only He had always enjoyed with the Father in heaven as the unique Son of God.
So when he addressed the Father as your God and my God and cried out on the cross in anguish on our behalf, he was taking the sinful human being's place, so he could perfectly plead for us as the perfect human being who died in our place.
I know you personally have an issue with the cross and redemption, Maryhig, but I am just presenting what I see as the work he did on the Cross for us, right?
So He was and is still equal to the Father from all eternity as the unique Son of God. Yet as the son of man representing us to God, he has the same 'human being to God' relationship that we do.
That was certainly something new for him, who existed from eternity past, but not for us as we are not Divine as he was from all time and eternity.
Also, verses that are often taken out of context are 'My Father is greater than I', 'Why callest thou me good?' and 'The first-born from the dead'.
Let's take them one at a time, briefly.
The verse 'My Father is greater than I' is a statement of being in a voluntary position of submission to His father, not of an inferior nature to the Father.
Consider, 'the Prime Minister is greater than I' in position and authority, but not in essence. We are of the same human nature, but we have a different status in the context of society. Jesus was the suffering Servant, not the Father, but the Son was and is and always had been and always will be of the same essential nature as his Father.
'Why callest thou me good?'. Jesus pointed out that only God is good (in an absolute, perfect sense). And he was right! So do you think Jesus was saying 'listen young man, I'm not really good in the same sense that God is good, in fact I am not good at all in the absolute, perfect sense.'
If you think that's what Jesus is saying, then I suspect you don't know him very well at all. I contend that Jesus was actually challenging this young man to look beyond the surface of things and think about who it was who was actually talking to him!
In other words, "Only God is (absolutely) good; if you say (rightly) that I am good, do you realise that means I am God?' This was a very clever test to see if the young man would acknowledge who Jesus really was.
Lastly, the 'first-born from the dead' refers to the first of a kind to be brought forth in a resurrection body of an eternal nature. Not the temporary resurrections that had gone before.
Oh, and there's another verse that people like to pull out, 'The first-born over all creation'. Well the Greek word is 'prototokos', meaning the one having pre-eminence in all things. Nothing to do with being created.
One more thought, we only have recorded in the Gospels the direct words of Jesus referring to who he was and why he came. Because he came as the suffering servant, naturally His language was heavily focused on servanthood, submission, only doing what the Father told him and so on. He was modelling servant-hood for us. The epistles and John's gospel go much further in affirming a fully-rounded picture of Jesus as both Son of Man and Son of God, including his deity and the unity of the Godhead.
That will probably do for now.
|
|
|
Post by alistairhenderson on Mar 14, 2017 7:47:13 GMT -5
Let's try and keep this thread under 100 pages, folks! Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 14, 2017 10:15:44 GMT -5
How come others can't see that Jesus actually calls God his God? And that Paul said that the head of Christ is God. As the apostles clearly say that God is the God and father of Jesus Christ? It's clear as day!
And what was Jesus' answer to those that said that Jesus was trying to make himself God? He corrected them and told them you say I'm blaspheming because i say that I am the son of God, just because they say he was trying to make himself God, doesn't mean he was, he said clearly that he's the son of God not God!
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
And Jesus said that he and the father are one yes, but he also said that we are one as they are one when we belong to God. And we're not God when we are at one with God and Christ are we?
John 17
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me
You are quoting revelation, but right at the beginning of Revelation in chapter 1 verse 1 John says that this is the revelation given to Jesus Christ given to him from God and sent by his angel to John.
Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE INTO HIM, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
You also mention the lamb, but what is Jesus the lamb of? He is the lamb of God! Not that the lamb is God!
Did you read the verses I quoted? In revelation 3 Jesus clearly says that God is his God many times. What more do we need?
The thing is Nathan, of you believe in the trinity then that's up to you. But you and others can't condemn others who don't believe as you do, especially when there is so much in the Bible that points against a triune God. And nowhere in the Bible are we told to believe in a triune God, we are told to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and i do! We are also told that there is one God and that he is the father. That is is the Bible, even Jesus himself says so. Why shouldn't we believe him?
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Mar 14, 2017 10:48:44 GMT -5
Jesus said to his apostles in John 14:1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. The apostles testified Jesus is God just as His heavenly Father is God.1) Paul wrote in I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the Flesh!, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, PREACHED to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. Colossians 2:9 For in him/Jesus dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.2) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God." Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:24-29 3) Before! Jesus was born in Luke 2:46-47. Mary said, " My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."
~~~ Yeshua/Jesus did NOT become the Lord God Almighty AFTER His resurrection but He has ALWAYS existed as the Lord God Almighty before the creation of the World. That was/is His Nature the Lord God Almighty as ALWAYS. The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death. God was manifest in flesh, he was in Christ, and Jesus Christ was in his express image but that doesn't mean that Jesus is God, God was in Jesus reconciling the world into himself. This is how Jesus is our saviour, because he laid down his life and had the the full power of the holy spirit because he didn't sin and resisted all temptations set before him, and God was in his fullness in Christ Jesus because Jesus never let this world in him and Satan couldn't touch him and he was saving all those who believed the gospel, repented and turned to God. 2 Corinthians 9 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. And why do you think that the Godhead means trinity? Also Mary's prayer was to God not Jesus! And if he had always been God Almighty, why did he pray to God? Why ask God to forgive those who crucified him, he could have just forgiven them himself if he is God? Why commend his spirit into the hands of God? Why tell us to pray to the father and not to him? Why did he clearly say that God was his God even when he had left his flesh and gone back to the father? Why does Jesus say that God has given him power over all flesh, if he is God he wouldn't need Gods power? Why did God exalt Jesus Christ to his right hand, if Jesus is God then God wouldn't need to exhalt him? And why did God put Jesus over everything that is in heaven and in earth? If Jesus was God, then God wouldn't need to do this? And Jesus also said that God has given him those who have believed in him? He also said that the father is greater than he, and that without the father he could do nothing. And why is Christ under subjection to God if he is God? 1 Corinthians 15 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. To me it's clear that the father is God and he is the God and father of all of us including Christ Jesus!
|
|