|
Post by joanna on Nov 2, 2016 17:28:00 GMT -5
Please watch this 5.5m video.
Would you raise your hand in response to question asked about the hypothetical scenario?
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2016 17:38:57 GMT -5
New to this forum, first post! But in response to your question, joanna, yes I would. Thanks for posting, I've never seen this clip before and I haven't read/watched many secular critiques of the book of Job.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 17:45:26 GMT -5
nope God does what he does for whatever reason he does things. we are his creation built for his pleasure or punishment.
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Nov 2, 2016 18:02:16 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Nov 2, 2016 18:03:52 GMT -5
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
|
|
horror
Junior Member
Pedophilia is a mental disorder you take to the grave (they involves children &non human victims)
Posts: 70
|
Post by horror on Nov 2, 2016 18:05:50 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Nov 2, 2016 18:17:50 GMT -5
@wally
I was still attending meetings and my attempts to reconcile the biblical accounts of god's actions and treatment of human and non-human animals with the workers and meeting folk's portrayal of an all-powerful and loving being continually failed.
Before I learnt that the god of the Hebrew bible was just one of thousands humans had contrived, I had come to realise that this god was a cruel, sadistic entity. The story of Job exemplified this as did many others.
Dan Barker highlights those christian apologetics' expected and incongruous reaction when the christians in the video audience showed their willingness to condemn a human's pitiful blaming of the devil for committing a heinous crime, contrasting with their concurrent tolerance of the god of the bible using the same excuse.
|
|
|
Post by howitis on Nov 2, 2016 18:27:13 GMT -5
Now if one were truly looking for a Christian church that handled paedophilia and CSA allegations well......I'm not so sure about promoting Hillsong (we won't mention finances either will we)
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2016 20:19:05 GMT -5
nope God does what he does for whatever reason he does things. we are his creation built for his pleasure or punishment. So God can do whatever he wants with us. And he does things like stripping an innocent man of all his belongings and killing his entire family. Or watching all of the suffering in the world without stepping in to stop it. If you believe that, fine. But if you think God is good, in spite of everything he does, and everything he allows to happen, I have to ask... why? That doesn't seem logical to me.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Nov 2, 2016 20:26:28 GMT -5
nope God does what he does for whatever reason he does things. we are his creation built for his pleasure or punishment. So God can do whatever he wants with us. And he does things like stripping an innocent man of all his belongings and killing his entire family. Or watching all of the suffering in the world without stepping in to stop it. If you believe that, fine. But if you think God is good, in spite of everything he does, and everything he allows to happen, I have to ask... why? That doesn't seem logical to me. In the Bible, "morality" is not the virtue.
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2016 20:44:23 GMT -5
So God can do whatever he wants with us. And he does things like stripping an innocent man of all his belongings and killing his entire family. Or watching all of the suffering in the world without stepping in to stop it. If you believe that, fine. But if you think God is good, in spite of everything he does, and everything he allows to happen, I have to ask... why? That doesn't seem logical to me. In the Bible, "morality" is not the virtue. Sorry, Bob, could you explain this in more detail, please? I want to be sure I understand you correctly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 20:45:56 GMT -5
nope God does what he does for whatever reason he does things. we are his creation built for his pleasure or punishment. So God can do whatever he wants with us. And he does things like stripping an innocent man of all his belongings and killing his entire family. Or watching all of the suffering in the world without stepping in to stop it. If you believe that, fine. But if you think God is good, in spite of everything he does, and everything he allows to happen, I have to ask... why? That doesn't seem logical to me. hes the creator who are you or I to question how, when, where, why and what he does? this is an I55 moment...(Isaiah 55 8-9)
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2016 20:55:20 GMT -5
So God can do whatever he wants with us. And he does things like stripping an innocent man of all his belongings and killing his entire family. Or watching all of the suffering in the world without stepping in to stop it. If you believe that, fine. But if you think God is good, in spite of everything he does, and everything he allows to happen, I have to ask... why? That doesn't seem logical to me. hes the creator who are you or I to question how, when, where, why and what he does? this is an I55 moment...(Isaiah 55 8-9) When it comes down to it, I can't say whether God's good or evil or somewhere in between. As you said, he's the creator. He might have reasons for doing what he does that we could never hope to comprehend. But that's where I am. Indecision, because I can't judge God any which way. How did you decide that God is good? (Did you?)
|
|
horror
Junior Member
Pedophilia is a mental disorder you take to the grave (they involves children &non human victims)
Posts: 70
|
Post by horror on Nov 2, 2016 20:59:40 GMT -5
howitis,The "words taught",yes the daddy of Brian failed as many 2x2 leaders and workers.. But their songs,Cornerstone and others,and the messages ("sermons"),compare these with the above bad dvd,and or others who are preaching to the masses. I am not a Hillsong follower,but re monies. Ask for a financial statement and their help to the destitute,sick and abused is staggering. The 2x2s use their monies to try and coverup their non biblical teachings , adultries and child molestings. Just,please, listen to some sound ecumenical teachings and songs of praise and worship. Put some you find on here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 21:01:45 GMT -5
hes the creator who are you or I to question how, when, where, why and what he does? this is an I55 moment...(Isaiah 55 8-9) When it comes down to it, I can't say whether God's good or evil or somewhere in between. As you said, he's the creator. He might have reasons for doing what he does that we could never hope to comprehend. But that's where I am. Indecision, because I can't judge God any which way. How did you decide that God is good? (Did you?) i decided long ago that the OT God was a vengeful and rightly so God and the NT God became a God of Love...so good
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Nov 2, 2016 21:20:44 GMT -5
In the Bible, "morality" is not the virtue. Sorry, Bob, could you explain this in more detail, please? I want to be sure I understand you correctly. First, the word itself doesn't appear. Other than the golden rule (New Testament), there's no suggestion of there being any concept equivalent to morality. Obedience was the highest virtue.
|
|
|
Post by howitis on Nov 2, 2016 22:20:16 GMT -5
Dear horror, I for one am very aware of 'cover ups' within the Hillsong brigade, it wasn't just the daddy, it was a culture rife within that community, so covered up was the assistance given to perpetrators that financial records didn't show it!!!! I am aware of the 'help' given to the destitute and ill from that organisation, I am very familiar of one instance where an ill, homeless mother received no help until her only son was abused!!! I have said CSA is a societal problem and am very aware it is prevalent not only among religious groups but also within show business, sporting facilities, educational institutes etc. I will not be posting Hillsong sermons here nor those of 2x2 ministers or any other denominations either.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 2, 2016 22:25:09 GMT -5
Please watch this 5.5m video. Would you raise your hand in response to question asked about the hypothetical scenario?
Thanks Joanna, I know this man.
For of those who are Christians and might just want to write him off as not "knowing" your selected god to worship and that he just doesn't understand your god & the bible, I will you in an bit of his history.
He was once a Pentecostal minister who when finally realizing that he could no longer in good conscious continue to uphold the bible as a book to follow if you truly wanted live a moral life, he felt the ministry.
His name is Dan Barker, He and his wife are co presidents of the FFRF (Freedom from Religion Foundation)
I have been member for a long time.
About FFRF
Welcome to the Freedom from Religion Foundation
The history of Western civilization shows us that most social and moral progress has been brought about by persons free from religion. In modern times the first to speak out for prison reform, for humane treatment of the mentally ill, for abolition of capital punishment, for women's right to vote, for death with dignity for the terminally ill, and for the right to choose contraception, sterilization and abortion have been freethinkers, just as they were the first to call for an end to slavery. The Foundation works as an umbrella for those who are free from religion and are committed to the cherished principle of separation of state and church.
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2016 23:01:48 GMT -5
Sorry, Bob, could you explain this in more detail, please? I want to be sure I understand you correctly. First, the word itself doesn't appear. Other than the golden rule (New Testament), there's no suggestion of there being any concept equivalent to morality. Obedience was the highest virtue. Well, the words "good" and "evil" are used quite a bit, right? And there's the ten commandments. But what, exactly, are you trying to suggest? That morality is irrelevant when it comes to God, and only obedience is important?
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2016 23:08:29 GMT -5
When it comes down to it, I can't say whether God's good or evil or somewhere in between. As you said, he's the creator. He might have reasons for doing what he does that we could never hope to comprehend. But that's where I am. Indecision, because I can't judge God any which way. How did you decide that God is good? (Did you?) i decided long ago that the OT God was a vengeful and rightly so God and the NT God became a God of Love...so good Well, the NT God certainly tones down the slaughter, but he still requires a human sacrifice -- his son, no less -- before he becomes willing to forgive people for disobeying him. How did you decide the OT God was "rightly" vengeful, and how did you decide the NT God became a God of love? Also, don't the workers often repeat something to the effect of, "God is unchanging?" Isn't that false if the OT God's nature was different from the NT God's?
|
|
jigpeter
Junior Member
Hinga dinga durgan
Posts: 188
|
Post by jigpeter on Nov 2, 2016 23:38:23 GMT -5
Please watch this 5.5m video. Would you raise your hand in response to question asked about the hypothetical scenario? This guy in the video is incorrect... listen at 2:00 He said God killed Job's children, caused Job's bad health, and killed all of his animals... This is NOT TRUE, God did no such thing but Satan cause all of that trouble for Job. In Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Daniel Edwin "Dan" Barker (born June 25, 1949) is an American atheist activist who served as a Christian preacher and musician for 19 years but left Christianity in 1984. Barker, along with his wife Annie Laurie Gaylor, is the current co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.[2] He has written numerous articles for Free thought Today, an American freet hought newspaper. He is the author of several books including Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_BarkerMaybe Dan used misleading wording, and maybe Satan did the actual dirty deed in Job 2:7. But that doesn't change what Job 2:3 says, which is (God speaking): "...thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." (An explicit admission of guilt by God himself.) Also, in verse 6, God gives Satan explicit permission to torment Job as long as he doesn't kill him. And throughout Job's horrific experience, God, who could fix everything with the snap of an ethereal finger, leans back in his throne and just watches. Shouldn't all this make God at least partially responsible for every wrong done to Job?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 3, 2016 0:02:32 GMT -5
This guy in the video is incorrect... listen at 2:00 He said God killed Job's children, caused Job's bad health, and killed all of his animals... This is NOT TRUE, God did no such thing but Satan cause all of that trouble for Job. In Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Daniel Edwin "Dan" Barker (born June 25, 1949) is an American atheist activist who served as a Christian preacher and musician for 19 years but left Christianity in 1984. Barker, along with his wife Annie Laurie Gaylor, is the current co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.[2] He has written numerous articles for Free thought Today, an American freet hought newspaper. He is the author of several books including Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker Maybe Dan used misleading wording, and maybe Satan did the actual dirty deed in Job 2:7. But that doesn't change what Job 2:3 says, which is (God speaking): "...thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." (An explicit admission of guilt by God himself.) Also, in verse 6, God gives Satan explicit permission to torment Job as long as he doesn't kill him. And throughout Job's horrific experience, God, who could fix everything with the snap of an ethereal finger, leans back in his throne and just watches. Shouldn't all this make God at least partially responsible for every wrong done to Job?[/quote Right on jigpeter!
The Book of Job begins with an introduction to Job's character—he is described as a blessed man who lived righteously in the Land of Uz.
The Lord's praise of Job prompted Satan to challenge Job's integrity, suggesting that Job served God simply because God protected him.
God removed Job's protection, allowing Satan to take his wealth, his children, and his physical health (but not his life) in order to test Job's character.
We today would calling that gambling, "betting." Satan was betting that Job would stop serving god if bad thing happened to him and god was betting Job would not stop serving him.
Poor Job was just a pawn between God & Satan.
And on top of that, -today gambling is considered by many Christians to be a "sin!"
|
|
horror
Junior Member
Pedophilia is a mental disorder you take to the grave (they involves children &non human victims)
Posts: 70
|
Post by horror on Nov 3, 2016 0:27:02 GMT -5
howitis please this is actually the supposed "Truth Meeting Board", so the sins of others,gladly only a few other groups,do they outway the 2x2s coverups of the most horrid criminal "child sexual abuses",adulteries and homosexual and lesbian acts,they have been used from the Irving conception to today to poison the minds and make people fear those who are genuinely preaching Gods message as all tared with the same brush,by those unbiblical supposed celibate workers. To the 2x2s they are all rotten and false,gives them the power over the ones in the mind control bondage of their sect.
|
|
horror
Junior Member
Pedophilia is a mental disorder you take to the grave (they involves children &non human victims)
Posts: 70
|
Post by horror on Nov 3, 2016 0:27:16 GMT -5
howitis please this is actually the supposed "Truth Meeting Board", so the sins of others,gladly only a few other groups,do they outway the 2x2s coverups of the most horrid criminal "child sexual abuses",adulteries and homosexual and lesbian acts,they have been used from the Irving conception to today to poison the minds and make people fear those who are genuinely preaching Gods message as all tared with the same brush,by those unbiblical supposed celibate workers. To the 2x2s they are all rotten and false,gives them the power over the ones in the mind control bondage of their sect.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Nov 3, 2016 3:15:07 GMT -5
First, the word itself doesn't appear. Other than the golden rule (New Testament), there's no suggestion of there being any concept equivalent to morality. Obedience was the highest virtue. Well, the words "good" and "evil" are used quite a bit, right? And there's the ten commandments. But what, exactly, are you trying to suggest? That morality is irrelevant when it comes to God, and only obedience is important? Has anyone ever heard the word "moral" in a gospel meeting? I'll post something I've written about morality.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Nov 3, 2016 3:21:34 GMT -5
Chapter 22
It’s fair to say the Friends and Workers live by a high moral standard. I believe it’s also fair to say the Friends’ neighbors, coworkers, and business associates, in general, also consider them morally upright. I wouldn’t be surprised, though, if the majority of the Friends have had neighbors who thought they were weird, but worthy of respect nonetheless. That said, I admit that the Friends and Workers are no more immune to any kind of immorality than any other community. My observation is that the better a community polices its own morality the more effective it is in assuring an appearance of morality – but reputations are not built on appearances alone.
But what is morality? The popular concept of morality involves avoiding sexual impropriety, not committing crimes, not defrauding others, and not playing havoc with other people’s peace, property, and safety. In elementary school I understood that morality was all about not doing certain things. Among the Friends and Workers morality involved no jewelry, no make-up, no long hair on men, no short hair on women, no drinking, no smoking, no cussing, no white shoes, no sleeveless dresses, no sandals, no movies, no sports events, no circuses, no television, no radio, no stereo – and whatever else. That made it easy to identify immoral people on the street – and to identify wayward coreligionists. But by the time I reached middle school I’d learned that not all of these moral imperatives applied world-wide among the Friends and Workers. And by the time I reached high school I regarded most of those restrictions as Truth tradition ... nothing more.
As an adult, it’s always troubled me to hear religious people saying offhandedly that morality is based on the Bible. First of all, I didn’t believe everyone who made such statements was all that moral himself. Furthermore, I never thought the Bible was satisfactory guidance in morality, regardless of all the good things it says. I decided in the late 1960's, after witnessing people’s responses to the American civil rights struggle of the era, that being a Christian or Friend or Worker is no assurance at all that someone has a moral conscience. I never encountered genuinely unbiased discussion about morality until I happened upon Pagans and atheists. I’d long wondered how it was that non-Christians, who not only lived exemplary moral lives but had a practicable, formulated grasp of the concept of morality, made their moral decisions. I wasn’t disappointed – I learned why religious dogma doesn’t lend itself to delineated moral principles.
A dictionary will define morality as beliefs about what is right behavior and what is wrong behavior. It’s a straightforward definition, but it’s crass, if not arrogant, to equate it with religious dogma. Carried to its decisive conclusion, morality applies to our treatment of all sentient beings, encompassing all behaviors that can affect the happiness and suffering experiences of such beings. Morality stands apart from religious dogma – believing that Jesus was born of a virgin has nothing to do with moral principle. Morality also stands apart from honesty – otherwise Anne Frank’s protector would be considered immoral. It also stands apart from legality – otherwise Harriet Tubman would have done the wrong thing. Ironically, enough of the Bible has been deemed obscene that it has been banned from school libraries.
On the other hand, religion in effect divorces morality from human suffering. Mother Teresa, despite her reputation, was at best an inadvertent promoter of poverty and misery by opposing, in Christopher Hutchins’ words, the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction.1 Morality is a two-sided matter, but the measure of its virtue is relative to its benefit to the recipient of an act. The Bible explicitly justifies deceit in the case of Jacob’s sons when they converted their enemies by circumcising them, simply to accommodate their intent to follow up with their slaughter of the whole clan.2 Such passages permit religious persons (not just Christians) to justify anything for their own self serving interests and call it morally acceptable. To be morally right can be more costly than being religiously justified. The most profound statement I’ve ever heard regarding morality was by an unnamed young man in search of ultimate truth:
“To be truly moral, ... I must be willing to do what was right even if it meant that I would suffer the flames of hell for eternity for doing it. Nothing, not even the threat of hell, should deter me from doing what was truly right. That was true morality.”3
.............. (c)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 3:45:13 GMT -5
When it comes down to it, I can't say whether God's good or evil or somewhere in between. As you said, he's the creator. He might have reasons for doing what he does that we could never hope to comprehend. But that's where I am. Indecision, because I can't judge God any which way. How did you decide that God is good? (Did you?) i decided long ago that the OT God was a vengeful and rightly so God and the NT God became a God of Love...so good It boils down to the fact that you are a believer and you believe in that which is written in the scriptures. For example , it is written that God is good and His mercies endureth for ever. I believe that too, and I follow my beliefs. Everyone is entitled to follow their heart felt beliefs, including atheists. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. He will judge righteously and mete out rewards and punishments when the time comes.That is my belief also.
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Nov 3, 2016 4:15:50 GMT -5
Reminds me of Huckleberry Finn BobWilliston . Looking forward to the book.
|
|