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Post by emy on Sept 9, 2015 23:30:31 GMT -5
Emy, could the size of the conventions be the same because so many others are closing and those that would normally attend the ones closed are coming to the to the other conventions ?
Just a question. I don't know having not been to a convention for at least five years now.
The last one I went to was because my husband was becoming so dependent on other people helping him. Although everyone was really very kind in helping him, I felt I was burdening them & I should stay with him that last time. The conventions I have been to in recent years are not affected by any closures, nor cutting days. Quite a few years ago a convention in this state was closed - not for lack of people, but some buildings were damaged in a storm and there were water problems. Eventually the grounds were flooded. In another state where I have been to convention, a convention was added in the last 5 years or so.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 0:53:17 GMT -5
didn't call you pharisee,dingbat Really? But "dingbat" is okay instead .... that just means a stupid person. It's probably slightly better than my comments being referred to as Phariseeic just thought you being an aussie that you would appreciate being called a digbat
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 10, 2015 1:23:15 GMT -5
Emy, could the size of the conventions be the same because so many others are closing and those that would normally attend the ones closed are coming to the to the other conventions ?
Just a question. I don't know having not been to a convention for at least five years now.
The last one I went to was because my husband was becoming so dependent on other people helping him. Although everyone was really very kind in helping him, I felt I was burdening them & I should stay with him that last time. The conventions I have been to in recent years are not affected by any closures, nor cutting days. Quite a few years ago a convention in this state was closed - not for lack of people, but some buildings were damaged in a storm and there were water problems. Eventually the grounds were flooded. In another state where I have been to convention, a convention was added in the last 5 years or so.
Where I live, one in next state has been eliminated. The workers of the two states have been combined. I heard because there weren't enough workers for separate states.
I also think one convention, my home convention, has been cut to three days but I'm not sure of that. Bet Walker would know!
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Post by Grant on Sept 10, 2015 4:41:18 GMT -5
virgo wrote: "didn't call you pharisee,dingbat"
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Such hatred and bad behavior from another professing person. Read Bert, review005 and Virgo's posts to get an idea of the lack of skills and grace that those in 'meetings' possess.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Sept 10, 2015 13:09:45 GMT -5
Emy, could the size of the conventions be the same because so many others are closing and those that would normally attend the ones closed are coming to the to the other conventions ?
Just a question. I don't know having not been to a convention for at least five years now.
The last one I went to was because my husband was becoming so dependent on other people helping him. Although everyone was really very kind in helping him, I felt I was burdening them & I should stay with him that last time. The conventions I have been to in recent years are not affected by any closures, nor cutting days. Quite a few years ago a convention in this state was closed - not for lack of people, but some buildings were damaged in a storm and there were water problems. Eventually the grounds were flooded. In another state where I have been to convention, a convention was added in the last 5 years or so. That's about the timeframe in which SoCa they cancelled one convention (no #2) and added one to AZ to better match the location of people. Makes sense to do that. The NoCa convention was shut down years ago. I imagine anyone still up there would go across to Oregon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 23:45:14 GMT -5
virgo wrote: "didn't call you pharisee,dingbat" -------------------------------- Such hatred and bad behavior from another professing person. Read Bert, review005 and Virgo's posts to get an idea of the lack of skills and grace that those in 'meetings' possess. r u 4 real it was a joke even Ross saw that [eyes roll]
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 23:47:21 GMT -5
virgo wrote: "didn't call you pharisee,dingbat" -------------------------------- Such hatred and bad behavior from another professing person. Read Bert, review005 and Virgo's posts to get an idea of the lack of skills and grace that those in 'meetings' possess. oh look mamma we have a new finger pointer
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Post by howitis on Sept 10, 2015 23:53:45 GMT -5
virgo wrote: "didn't call you pharisee,dingbat" -------------------------------- Such hatred and bad behavior from another professing person. Read Bert, review005 and Virgo's posts to get an idea of the lack of skills and grace that those in 'meetings' possess. oh look mamma we have a new finger pointer Yes, but don't three always point back??
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 23:57:54 GMT -5
oh look mamma we have a new finger pointer Yes, but don't three always point back?? they do but enuf hasn't worked that one out yet
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Post by howitis on Sept 11, 2015 0:01:29 GMT -5
Yes, but don't three always point back?? they do but enuf hasn't worked that one out yet Oh well they will eventually maybe they haven't had Grant time!!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2015 0:10:41 GMT -5
they do but enuf hasn't worked that one out yet Oh well they will eventually maybe they haven't had Grant time!!!
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Post by maryhig on Sept 11, 2015 0:47:36 GMT -5
they do but enuf hasn't worked that one out yet Oh well they will eventually maybe they haven't had Grant time!!! Oh dear, I can't take anymore, that's enuf!
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Post by howitis on Sept 11, 2015 1:14:51 GMT -5
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tom
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Post by tom on Sept 11, 2015 1:36:54 GMT -5
In my opinion and observation the last 40 yrs the Secret Sect book and William Irvine the founder story have made 30-40% friends leaving the fellowship and with the false teaching of the current workers on Jesus is NOT God will be bring down another 20% of the friends leaving the fellowship. I belive that to be absolutely wrong Nathan. The majority of people that I know that jave left this way have done so because they loose their need for God... it all gets to hard. They do not have an issue with doctrine or "the trinity' . They have no need.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 11, 2015 1:56:55 GMT -5
In my opinion and observation the last 40 yrs the Secret Sect book and William Irvine the founder story have made 30-40% friends leaving the fellowship and with the false teaching of the current workers on Jesus is NOT God will be bring down another 20% of the friends leaving the fellowship. I belive that to be absolutely wrong Nathan. The majority of people that I know that jave left this way have done so because they loose their need for God... it all gets to hard. They do not have an issue with doctrine or "the trinity' . They have no need. Why do you think that is the reason majority of people left?
That is not why I left the 2x2's.
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Post by joanna on Sept 11, 2015 2:43:37 GMT -5
People who left the 'truth' due to the confusion over its' beginnings are applying a smokescreen. ALL religious belief is based on mythology. If it was not so serious, it would be almost laughable to observe those who have left on the basis of the Irvine/Cooney 'controversy', go on to join another of the false belief systems and continue to criticise the 'truth'.
If only these individuals would use the logic they have applied to refute the meetings in order to understand that their present religion is also man-made.
When ex-truth members, who are now church x,y or z adherents, promote the criteria of false claims and dubious origins to denounce the 'truth', they are revealing a selective analysis style, a confirmation bias, which unwittingly and efficiently also negates their present belief system.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 11, 2015 4:22:44 GMT -5
People who left the 'truth' due to the confusion over its' beginnings are applying a smokescreen. ALL religious belief is based on mythology. If it was not so serious, it would be almost laughable to observe those who have left on the basis of the Irvine/Cooney 'controversy', go on to join another of the false belief systems and continue to criticise the 'truth'. If only these individuals would use the logic they have applied to refute the meetings in order to understand that their present religion is also man-made. When ex-truth members, who are now church x,y or z adherents, promote the criteria of false claims and dubious origins to denounce the 'truth', they are revealing a selective analysis style, a confirmation bias, which unwittingly and efficiently also negates their present belief system. I agree with you about religions, they're all man made. But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2015 23:49:20 GMT -5
I belive that to be absolutely wrong Nathan. The majority of people that I know that jave left this way have done so because they loose their need for God... it all gets to hard. They do not have an issue with doctrine or "the trinity' . They have no need. There was a BIG complaint on the subject the trinity back in the 1980s and an ex-2x2 in Oregon wrote a book about it. Ross is one of the friends, who left a few years back because of the workers lacking in understanding of the Godhead/Trinity. Kathy L. is right on the money about most of the workers and friends belief TODAY! on the Trinity/Godhead. We can read Review, Bert, fixit, virgo, and other friends posts belief on the Trinity on TMB for ourselves. From Kathy Lewis' (Ex-2x2) book in 1980s: The church without a name 2x2s (4th and 5th generation) belief on the Trinity. The workers are usually very quiet about this subject because they know its importance to Christians. They will usually answer that the word “Trinity is not in the scripture”. They say, “We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.” They usually end their statement with that, and a questioner usually accepts it without further interest. However, further inquiry is necessary. The workers do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and repudiate it as a Catholic heresy. They call it the “Argument of the Trinity”. One worker said that the “Trinity is the belief that God is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Mary the Mother of God.” The workers are very ignorant of what Christians mean by the term Trinity or at least they act ignorant. They wrongly say that Christians think that Jesus is his own Father. The workers say, “The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate beings, united in spirit (attitude or purpose), not in essence.” And, they say “the Church is One with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” They believe that “there is only One God, the Father.” They state that Jesus is a just a man, the Son of God. 1 Chapter 15 7/16/2004The church without a name not believe that He (Jesus) is the Creator, or equal to God in any way. He isn’t to be worshiped. Some workers refuse to comment on this subject by saying that they don’t really know. They close their minds to the question of whether Jesus is the Creator, claiming it is of no importance. Some workers refer to II Timothy 2: 23 that says to avoid arguing over words. One older brother worker said, “the “Word” referred to in John 1:1 is Christ.” He said that the original Greek states that the “Word is god”, with a little “g”. In other words, Christ is a god. They say “Christ is the Word in the sense that He lived the Word so perfectly that He was the Word made flesh or the Word made clear to the world what God wants every human to be perfectly obedient to the Word.” There is so little teaching regarding the person of God, few people have any idea of who God is. It is not a well defined, verbalized concept. “Who God is” is not important to them. Only “who the ministry is” is important.However, they primarily view Jesus as only a man who was completely filled with the indwelling Spirit. And of course, they don’t believe the Spirit is God either. Sometimes they say they believe Jesus was fully human and fully divine, but if they were asked, they wouldn’t be able to explain what “divine” means. They assume that it means holy or sanctified. They state simply that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Since they don’t view the Holy Spirit as the Creator GOD, but only the power of God, they don’t really view Jesus as being much different than any other human being believer who is filled with the Spirit. They often refer to Jesus as our elder brother, inferring that He is a human child of God just as other humans, and our perfect example of what God wants all His children to be.They view the Holy Spirit as the power of God, not God and not a person. They refer to the Holy Spirit as “it.” Some workers refer to the Holy Spirit as being “the mother spirit” because the Greek word for spirit has a feminine article. They don’t believe the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped or prayed to because the Spirit doesn’t glorify itself, instead, “it” glorifies The Father and Son. They don’t view “it” as equal to God or a person of the Godhead. One of the earliest workers said, “There is One God, and Two Lords, the Lord God, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” They quote many verses to prove that Jesus is not God because He could not pray to Himself, nor sit down at His own right hand, nor speak from heaven saying, “This is my well beloved Son..."
They say that Jesus does not know the hour of His return to earth so that proves He isn’t omniscient. Instead of viewing Jesus as God who became man, they view Him as a man who became godlike. Thus giving the impression that other men can do the same. They believe that the workers are like Jesus because they have denied self in obedience to the Spirit. The illogical reasoning in this is that they believe that the Spirit enables believers to be obedient and deny self, yet they believe that self denial is the key to obtaining the Spirit which enables them to deny self. Since they are ignorant of the eternal plurality of God they aren’t able to comprehend the eternally infinite love of God. How could God be able to love in eternity past, if there was no one but the Father in existence prior to creation?Hi Nathan, what you just posted is very true. This is one reason why I'm in the fellowship, because I believe what's being taught in the Truth. My youngest daughter wanted to visit a Baptist Church, and asked me to go with her. The music was good and all, but the series being taught was on how Jesus was God Almighty. I found it very difficult to sit through this one visit I made. It made me very uncomfortable. I explained to my daughter why I personally didn't like the sermon. I told her she was free to go there is she chose to do so. She chose not to go back to that Church. So, people in the Truth believe this way. Now, I like you. But I truly don't understand why you stay in the Truth if you don't believe this way. You were basically saying that the non-Trinitarian workers are wolves in sheep clothing in another post. If that's how you feel, why do you sit through Gospel meetings? Why do you go to convention and listen to them? I'm just puzzled as to why you stay if you think we are a heretical, back-slidden movement. I'm not saying you should leave, I'm just wondering why you don't if you are so unhappy with things right now.
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Post by fixit on Sept 12, 2015 0:17:21 GMT -5
One older brother worker said, “the “Word” referred to in John 1:1 is Christ.” He said that the original Greek states that the “Word is god”, with a little “g”. In other words, Christ is a god. They say “Christ is the Word in the sense that He lived the Word so perfectly that He was the Word made flesh or the Word made clear to the world what God wants every human to be perfectly obedient to the Word.” I believe there's no upper or lower case in ancient Hebrew and Greek. Otherwise I think that brother worker was correct. Jesus was God's word made flesh. One in unity, but not Jehovah himself.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 12, 2015 0:42:31 GMT -5
People who left the 'truth' due to the confusion over its' beginnings are applying a smokescreen. ALL religious belief is based on mythology. If it was not so serious, it would be almost laughable to observe those who have left on the basis of the Irvine/Cooney 'controversy', go on to join another of the false belief systems and continue to criticise the 'truth'. If only these individuals would use the logic they have applied to refute the meetings in order to understand that their present religion is also man-made. When ex-truth members, who are now church x,y or z adherents, promote the criteria of false claims and dubious origins to denounce the 'truth', they are revealing a selective analysis style, a confirmation bias, which unwittingly and efficiently also negates their present belief system. I agree with you about religions, they're all man made. But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist! You can't get away from the term "religion."
Believing that a "god or gods" exists is the definition of religion. definition of religion:
:the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
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Post by maryhig on Sept 12, 2015 0:58:07 GMT -5
I agree with you about religions, they're all man made. But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist! You can't get away from the term "religion."
Believing that a "god or gods" exists is the definition of religion. definition of religion:
:the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of godsI'm talking about religion in the sense of organised churches I.e. the different catholic or protestant churches etc. With all their pomp and ceremony. Jesus was nothing like that! ( I mean the religion, not the people) I believe in loving God with my whole heart, mind, soul and strength and my neighbour as myself. And denying my sins, and following Jesus and refraining from the world. That's my religion, nothing organised by man! James puts it well. James 1 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 7:29:44 GMT -5
Hi Nathan, what you just posted is very true.
What Kathy Lewis posted (ex-2x2) posted about the current workers and friends believe the Godhead/Trinity is TRUE because I heard the same thing which the workers have been teaching the friends for the last 50 yrs. I agree with Kathy Lewis that MANY of the current workers are errors and are lacking understanding on the Godhead.
This is one reason why I'm in the fellowship, because I believe what's being taught in the Truth. My youngest daughter wanted to visit a Baptist Church, and asked me to go with her. The music was good and all, but the series being taught was on how Jesus was God Almighty. I found it very difficult to sit through this one visit I made. It made me very uncomfortable. I explained to my daughter why I personally didn't like the sermon. I told her she was free to go there is she chose to do so. She chose not to go back to that Church. So, people in the Truth believe this way. Now, I like you. [/font] Most of the early workers believed in the Trinity, Deity of Christ, Jesus is God and part of the Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit... eventually 70 yrs ago many workers began preaching a different Jesus and he was watered down to Jesus the son of man and God but he is NOT God. There are workers, friends who do believe Jesus is God part of the Godhead. But I truly don't understand why you stay in the Truth if you don't believe this way. You were basically saying that the non-Trinitarian workers are wolves in sheep clothing in another post.I stay in the 2x2 fellowship and was in the work for 8 yrs because God has lead me to the workers in 1978 on the island of Guam. The worker I professed Leo Stancliff taught us about the Lord/Yahweh "I AM" in the Old Testament incarnated himself in the person and his name was Yahshuah/Jesus= Emmanuel means God with us.
I want to encourage the current workers to study the Godhead more carefully, because they don't fully understand the Godhead/Trinity like the early workers did.
If that's how you feel, why do you sit through Gospel meetings? Why do you go to convention and listen to them?
There are workers among us who have a clear understanding of the Godhead, Deity of Christ, Christ is divine mean he is God just like the Father. I don't let the workers who preached anti-Trinity/Godhead, Trinity is heresy or the devil's doctrine sinking in my heads... like the water rolling off the ducks back. Paul encourages Timothy to teach/preach the words of God correctly.
I'm just puzzled as to why you stay if you think we are a heretical, back-slidden movement. I'm not saying you should leave, I'm just wondering why you don't if you are so unhappy with things right now.
I am unhappy only a few things in our fellowship... 1) In correct teaching on the Godhead/Trinity. 2) CSA wasn't handling correctly but now many of the overseers have corrected this by encouraging the friends and workers to report abusers and victims (CSA) to authority instead trying to handle the situation themselves. 3) forbidden the friends to marry non-professing and by NOT allowing them to partake the emblems.
We need to correct the wrongs, if we ignore them it can lead to the path of destructions, and ruin may lives/Salvation along the way... We can see a big decline of the friends and workers in our fellowship the last 50 yrs around the world.
[/quote] [/quote] I get it. Thanks for the answer. So, you think unprofessing spouses should be allowed to partake in the Sunday morning meeting? That's an interesting concept. Beyond u professing spouses, do you think Sunday morning meetings should be open to all, not just spouses?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 12, 2015 15:33:32 GMT -5
You can't get away from the term "religion."
Believing that a "god or gods" exists is the definition of religion. definition of religion:
:the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods I'm talking about religion in the sense of organised churches I.e. the different catholic or protestant churches etc. With all their pomp and ceremony. Jesus was nothing like that! ( I mean the religion, not the people) I believe in loving God with my whole heart, mind, soul and strength and my neighbour as myself. And denying my sins, and following Jesus and refraining from the world. That's my religion, nothing organised by man! James puts it well. James 1 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction,and to keep himself unspotted from the world. Yes, and I remember how we 2x2's use to say, -rather smugly -that we weren't an "organized" church either, that we weren't started by MAN -that we were a living "organism!"
(Of course, at the time I use to hear that, -the majority didn't even know about Wm. Irvine & the beginnings of the *TRUTH*!
Strange, how people can rationalize about anything that they want to believe.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 12, 2015 23:25:07 GMT -5
I get it. Thanks for the answer. So, you think unprofessing spouses should be allowed to partake in the Sunday morning meeting? That's an interesting concept. Beyond u professing spouses, do you think Sunday morning meetings should be open to all, not just spouses? Sorry, for not making my post clearer. I was talking about workers forbidden professing man or woman NOT to continue to take part in testimony or emblems for marrying non-professing people. The unprofessing spouse can't take part in the emblems because he/she is NOT a believer in Christ.
Sunday morning for believers in Christ coming together to worshipping Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit in Spirit and in Truth. Paul wrote that every believer should examine himself/herself before partake the emblems in I Cor. 11:23-29 Partake the emblems should be between that person and the Godhead. ONLY God can forgive our sins NOT the workers.
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
The workers in my field allowed my brother and I (ex-Pentecostal) partake the emblems before we were baptized.
The unprofessing spouse can't take part in the emblems because he/she is NOT a believer in Christ.That isn't a true statement, is it Nathan? It is because they haven't professed in the truth fellowship. It has nothing to do with whether they are a believer or not. I consider myself to be a believer. Would it be hunky-dory for me to partake of the emblems in a Sunday morning meeting?
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Post by fred on Sept 13, 2015 2:58:02 GMT -5
Ah Scott, but it is true when you view it through the fellowship lens. It all hinges on what is 'a believer'.
For most of our friends when it is used internally it means a member of the fellowship, one who believes that 'the Way' is the only true way, (ie ministry and meeting form).
If it is used to outsiders the meaning would probably be different - I rarely hear it in this context as it would be a tacit acknowledgement that an outsider was also a saved Christian. That would seem to be a step too far.
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Post by rational on Sept 13, 2015 8:38:07 GMT -5
I consider myself to be a believer. Would it be hunky-dory for me to partake of the emblems in a Sunday morning meeting? FWIW - it would be fine with me.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 13, 2015 9:31:03 GMT -5
I consider myself to be a believer. Would it be hunky-dory for me to partake of the emblems in a Sunday morning meeting? FWIW - it would be fine with me. Are you the elder in your meeting? I would think that in your home, I would get the whole enchilada meal, not just the emblems. As long as the rowdy women aren't allowed to speak and disrupt us guys who know what we are talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 11:31:08 GMT -5
I get it. Thanks for the answer. So, you think unprofessing spouses should be allowed to partake in the Sunday morning meeting? That's an interesting concept. Beyond u professing spouses, do you think Sunday morning meetings should be open to all, not just spouses? Sorry, for not making my post clearer. I was talking about workers forbidden professing man or woman NOT to continue to take part in testimony or emblems for marrying non-professing people. The unprofessing spouse can't take part in the emblems because he/she is NOT a believer in Christ.
Sunday morning for believers in Christ coming together to worshipping Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit in Spirit and in Truth. Paul wrote that every believer should examine himself/herself before partake the emblems in I Cor. 11:23-29 Partake the emblems should be between that person and the Godhead. ONLY God can forgive our sins NOT the workers.
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
The workers in my field allowed my brother and I (ex-Pentecostal) partake the emblems before we were baptized.
Your last statement puzzles me. I've never heard of an unbaptized member NOT being allowed to partake. Baptism has nothing to do with it. If you've professed you can partake. That's a normal practice in Oregon.
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