hberry
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 17:17:12 GMT -5
Post by hberry on Jun 25, 2015 17:17:12 GMT -5
You've read Romans! And ignored James... Paul speaks to what a sanctified life looks like in Romans. Works follow faith but they don't save us--they confirm that we are born again, a child of God, with the Spirit indwelling. He speaks to it in Ephesians 2:8-10 for those who don't want to study Romans. But this argument has been going on for centuries, so I can't add anything to it that the godly men and women of the past haven't already said--and said better.
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 17:22:25 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2015 17:22:25 GMT -5
It would be interesting to know what the sola fide (by faith alone) folks think about the following verse...
James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
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hberry
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 17:26:44 GMT -5
Post by hberry on Jun 25, 2015 17:26:44 GMT -5
It would be interesting to know what the sola fide (by faith alone) folks think about the following verse... James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Martin Luther: “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.”
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 17:38:46 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 25, 2015 17:38:46 GMT -5
Here is what I think about the mindset behind the saved by grace group. There are many good non Christians. Good Jews, pagans etc. How do you justify that all these people that were not Christian could have good works? Was it possible they were also saved, not just Christians? This likely brought a lot of cognitive dissonance to a lot of people. So if you are saved by grace or belief in Jesus alone, and good works won't save you, this was a way to justify saying anyone who didn't believe in Jesus was 'lost' no matter how good they appeared to be. Also, made it a lot easier for those who weren't the nicest people around to believe they were saved. All they needed to say was that they believed in Jesus and they were saved. If they weren't doing the good works they knew wouldn't save them anyway, they could always justify their deeds that were less than sterling to be their sinful nature. Of course they would say they tried, but who can live a perfect life? So works are pretty low on the list of saved by grace people because they can just say they try and fail and leave it at that.
No real motivation to try if you're saved anyway. Works for a lot of people. Personally I think it's the lazy way to heaven, but then I don't believe in heaven either, so it really doesn't matter what I think... Snow, -that's fantastic!
I had often wondered about why there was so much emphasis on "WORKS vs GRACE!" I felt that there had to be some kind of psychological influence at work by the mind & emotions for the subject to be so important! You have the answer!
Bravo!
"This likely brought a lot of cognitive dissonance to a lot of people. "So if you are saved by grace or belief in Jesus alone, and good works won't save you, this was a way to justify saying anyone who didn't believe in Jesus was 'lost' no matter how good they appeared to be."
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 17:46:44 GMT -5
hberry likes this
Post by fred on Jun 25, 2015 17:46:44 GMT -5
It would be interesting to know what the sola fide (by faith alone) folks think about the following verse... James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. Martin Luther: “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” It seems to me hberry, that there is a basic misunderstanding of what (salvation)'being saved' is. For me it involves past, present and future. All three elements involve the grace of God - ie "by grace through faith".
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Post by fred on Jun 25, 2015 17:50:04 GMT -5
I was puzzling this over too, and I wondered if there was something agreed upon that indicated that 'hell had frozen over' but I couldn't make that work. If you follow the conversation it looks like reference to where bert lives and subsequently who he is. One of the tenets of the board is "strict privacy of personal details". Bert is someone who respects that. For Bert it is about ideas. Get off your high horse Jesse - Bert has made no secret about the geographical region in which he lives.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jun 25, 2015 17:50:07 GMT -5
Martin Luther: “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” It seems to me hberry, that there is a basic misunderstanding of what (salvation)'being saved' is. For me it involves past, present and future. All three elements involve the grace of God - ie "by grace through faith". I'm with you on this. To quote scripture: we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. All of which is an act of God's grace.
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 17:56:07 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 25, 2015 17:56:07 GMT -5
Here is what I think about the mindset behind the saved by grace group. There are many good non Christians. Good Jews, pagans etc. How do you justify that all these people that were not Christian could have good works? Was it possible they were also saved, not just Christians? This likely brought a lot of cognitive dissonance to a lot of people. So if you are saved by grace or belief in Jesus alone, and good works won't save you, this was a way to justify saying anyone who didn't believe in Jesus was 'lost' no matter how good they appeared to be. Also, made it a lot easier for those who weren't the nicest people around to believe they were saved. All they needed to say was that they believed in Jesus and they were saved. If they weren't doing the good works they knew wouldn't save them anyway, they could always justify their deeds that were less than sterling to be their sinful nature. Of course they would say they tried, but who can live a perfect life? So works are pretty low on the list of saved by grace people because they can just say they try and fail and leave it at that. No real motivation to try if you're saved anyway. Works for a lot of people. Personally I think it's the lazy way to heaven, but then I don't believe in heaven either, so it really doesn't matter what I think... Uh Snow, I'm no less diligent in my spiritual life now that I believe in grace than I was when I didn't. The motivation to good works comes from love for our Savior, and the power comes form the indwelling Spirit.
It is God who changes our hearts, desires, and actions from the Christian perspective. Christians who focus on works would see someone who didn't believe in Jesus as lost just as much as someone who believes in grace. I'm not saying all Christians do, but neither viewpoint eliminates the idea of being lost if you don't believe in Jesus. As I've often quoted: Grace is opposed to earning, not effort. But then, you and I have had basically this same conversation before and I know we don't agree. It just bothers me when people misconstrue grace as a license to sin (no change in behavior), as this misconstruing of grace is clearly preached against in scripture (the reason for my reference earlier to Romans). Where does the motivation to do good works come from in those who don't need a "Savior," or believe in Jesus? I don't think most of us who are unbelievers think that Christians "misconstrue grace as a license to sin." I think that we understand what they mean.
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 18:02:19 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jun 25, 2015 18:02:19 GMT -5
It seems to me hberry, that there is a basic misunderstanding of what (salvation)'being saved' is. For me it involves past, present and future. All three elements involve the grace of God - ie "by grace through faith". I'm with you on this. To quote scripture: we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. All of which is an act of God's grace. It seems to me hberry, that there is a basic misunderstanding of what (salvation)'being saved' is. For me it involves past, present and future. All three elements involve the grace of God - ie "by grace through faith". I'm with you on this. To quote scripture: we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. All of which is an act of God's grace. Just taking a look at all the controversy the subject has even now brought about indicates the cognitive dissonance noted by Snow!
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hberry
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 18:05:49 GMT -5
Post by hberry on Jun 25, 2015 18:05:49 GMT -5
Uh Snow, I'm no less diligent in my spiritual life now that I believe in grace than I was when I didn't. The motivation to good works comes from love for our Savior, and the power comes form the indwelling Spirit.
It is God who changes our hearts, desires, and actions from the Christian perspective. Christians who focus on works would see someone who didn't believe in Jesus as lost just as much as someone who believes in grace. I'm not saying all Christians do, but neither viewpoint eliminates the idea of being lost if you don't believe in Jesus. As I've often quoted: Grace is opposed to earning, not effort. But then, you and I have had basically this same conversation before and I know we don't agree. It just bothers me when people misconstrue grace as a license to sin (no change in behavior), as this misconstruing of grace is clearly preached against in scripture (the reason for my reference earlier to Romans). Where does the motivation to do good works come from in those who don't need a "Savior," or believe in Jesus? I don't think most of us who are unbelievers think that Christians "misconstrue grace as a license to sin." I think that we understand what they mean.
I only responded to where the Christian believes their motivation comes from. Since I am a believer, I cannot answer the question as to where anyone else's motivation comes from. Snow and I had a conversation about that when we discussed grace on another thread, and this a continuation of that exchange from elsewhere. I did not say that most unbelievers miscontrue grace as a license to sin: I was responding to Snow's overall comments that she thought grace was "the lazy way" to heaven because for those who wanted to say they didn't need to do anything more than believe and they would be fine. I do not speak to the unbeliever's viewpoints or motivations; I can't as I have no way to know. That is why I carefully said 'the Christian.' And as Snow knows, from our earlier conversation, I readily acknowledge that there are many good acts performed by many people of many different faiths and lack of faith. Christians have no monopoly on doing good.
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hberry
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 18:10:01 GMT -5
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Post by hberry on Jun 25, 2015 18:10:01 GMT -5
It's nice to know your birth family care so much, but I agree with you - it makes no sense to repeat a few words to make one "saved". To me, it's disrespectful towards God. How can people choose what to believe? Not sure they care that much anymore now that we've survived Y2K lol... I think they have pretty much given up on saving me. They care about me and I do them, but except for the odd time, saving me isn't as big a priority as it once was. Well if you all live to Y3K, this might be an area of concern for them again!
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 20:00:04 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2015 20:00:04 GMT -5
It would be interesting to know what the sola fide (by faith alone) folks think about the following verse... James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.I am happy to comment on the whole section in James where he talks about faith and deeds but not one verse chosen here and there to make a point So "not by faith alone" has to have context, yet "by faith alone" doesn't??? Here's the context...
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 20:06:34 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2015 20:06:34 GMT -5
Faith alone saves and gives life - that's very clear from the Bible. James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Faith alone gives life, but without deeds it's dead. That requires some mental gymnastics...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 25, 2015 20:16:17 GMT -5
NSW is in the south (colder climes) of Australia and it's coming into their winter there. They get to ski in the south and surf in the north of their great country. Great place! Snow - you are spot on! My rather cryptic comment indicates that I think Bert lives south of me (potentially in a state south of New South Wales where it is a little colder. Winter here at the moment - temperatures are 17-18 degrees Celsius during the day in Sydney and around 7-8 degrees Celsius overnight....but the further south you go the colder the clime gets! South of the Border, are you a Mexican now Bert ?
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 22:54:09 GMT -5
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Post by withlove on Jun 25, 2015 22:54:09 GMT -5
James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Faith alone gives life, but without deeds it's dead. That requires some mental gymnastics... It only requires mental gymnastics if you want it to. To those who prefer to think about it plainly it simply says that...if faith does not produce the works, fruit or deeds of the Spirit it's a dead faith. Repentance and genuine faith in Christ gives life - we are born again of His Spirit - we are saved and justified. The HS works and it is evident as we live for Him. We are sanctified by Him. And then in reverse...if the fruit of the HS is not evident, the HS isn't there, we weren't born again, our faith/repentance wasn't genuine. Perfectly logical to me, both forwards and backwards. I don't see the Bible saying "Repent, turn in faith to Christ, do good things all your life - God will then work out whether you've done enough good things to be born again of His Spirit and to receive life forever." Rather I see: "Repent, turn in faith to Christ, God saves us, God gives us new life in Him, God cleanses us and justifies us (declares us innocent), God gives us His Holy Spirit, God works in us to changes us and produce fruit/deeds/good works, God sanctifies us, God calls us Him, God allows us to live with Him forever..." A works based gospel is all about us - a grace based gospel is all about Him and His work in us. Maybe I'm being dense, but it seems sometimes like you two are saying the same thing (faith without works is dead). Ross, I appreciate you explaining the saved by grace doctrine in detail. I have been wrong in thinking that it is the same as the once-saved-always-saved doctrine. Because the faith can die. Jesus prayed that Peter's faith wouldn't fail. You have convinced me. Faith and works co-exist. I don't see why we have to pick one or the other. If we rely on faith, that doesn't mean we don't need to be renewed often. Saying we believe in childhood doesn't allow us to then forget about Jesus for life. Faith needs upkeep, and if we are doing the upkeep (prayer), we will be compelled to live rightly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 23:05:07 GMT -5
Snow - you are spot on! My rather cryptic comment indicates that I think Bert lives south of me (potentially in a state south of New South Wales where it is a little colder. Winter here at the moment - temperatures are 17-18 degrees Celsius during the day in Sydney and around 7-8 degrees Celsius overnight....but the further south you go the colder the clime gets! South of the Border, are you a Mexican now Bert ? I think Bert lives just in NSW, on the border between Victoria and NSW, on the great Murray River. He seems to be up with Victorian affairs. Scary to think we may have gone to the same meetings. I am so sad, thought he was making a play for me when he said he would like to have a cuppa or even a beer with me. Thought I might get a ring ( on the phone). He is a bit shy, or do you think he is frightened of Redbacks. They can give you a nasty bite, and make you very sick. Come clean Ross, I think you may know where he is. Bert I am still available, promise not to bite. In the mean time I will suffer the pain of a broken heart, and hope that you will seak me out again.
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 23:23:54 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2015 23:23:54 GMT -5
Faith and works co-exist. I don't see why we have to pick one or the other. If we rely on faith, that doesn't mean we don't need to be renewed often. Saying we believe in childhood doesn't allow us to then forget about Jesus for life. Faith needs upkeep, and if we are doing the upkeep (prayer), we will be compelled to live rightly. Yes, faith and works go together. That's why it's deceitful to use the term "faith alone".
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LL
Jun 25, 2015 23:58:01 GMT -5
Post by Roselyn T on Jun 25, 2015 23:58:01 GMT -5
South of the Border, are you a Mexican now Bert ? I think Bert lives just in NSW, on the border between Victoria and NSW, on the great Murray River. He seems to be up with Victorian affairs. Scary to think we may have gone to the same meetings. I am so sad, thought he was making a play for me when he said he would like to have a cuppa or even a beer with me. Thought I might get a ring ( on the phone). He is a bit shy, or do you think he is frightened of Redbacks. They can give you a nasty bite, and make you very sick. Come clean Ross, I think you may know where he is. Bert I am still available, promise not to bite. In the mean time I will suffer the pain of a broken heart, and hope that you will seak me out again. Redback if that's the case we better be careful, after all we know a few people along the great Murray River, don't we
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 0:18:09 GMT -5
Thanks Ross I have got it, did think that might be the spot. Yes Roselyn, old stamping ground for us. M is a bit further down the river. They were all pretty wild that came from there, although Bert doesn't seem a wild sort of bloke. He did suggest a beer, which I guess is a bit wild for a 2x2. I will have to get some of my spies down there to go looking for him. Do you think I should go for Breach of Promise.
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LL
Jun 26, 2015 1:20:31 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jun 26, 2015 1:20:31 GMT -5
Yes, faith and works go together. That's why it's deceitful to use the term "faith alone". Paul was deceitful was he? Read Romans 5. Can you quote where Paul used the term "faith alone"?
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Post by fixit on Jun 26, 2015 1:22:19 GMT -5
Thanks Ross I have got it, did think that might be the spot. Yes Roselyn, old stamping ground for us. M is a bit further down the river. They were all pretty wild that came from there, although Bert doesn't seem a wild sort of bloke. He did suggest a beer, which I guess is a bit wild for a 2x2. I will have to get some of my spies down there to go looking for him. Do you think I should go for Breach of Promise. Bert advocated submission to the ministry. Are the workers OK with beer in Bert's area?
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Post by maryhig on Jun 26, 2015 1:47:49 GMT -5
Paul was deceitful was he? Read Romans 5. Can you quote where Paul used the term "faith alone"? Fixit I saw this in Romans 13, and I thought salvation isn't just believing as some say. It says that our salvation is nearer than when we believed, so it's not just believing that saves us, it's doing. Putting off the old man, and putting on the new man, which is Christ in the heart. And he will save us from sin as long as we keep our faith and love God with all our hearts! Romans 13 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
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Post by maryhig on Jun 26, 2015 2:06:05 GMT -5
Faith alone saves and gives life - that's very clear from the Bible. James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. Faith alone gives life, but without deeds it's dead. That requires some mental gymnastics... I've just read this also, it clearly says here that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life. So it's not a definite, we're not instantly saved the moment we believe. I believe we have to endure to the end. It Also says, that they that believed in God, might be careful to maintain good works. And that these things are good and profitable to men. It's not just believing, its living it, and Christ will give us the strength to do it, if we love and keep our faith in God! Titus v8 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 4:04:04 GMT -5
you could just about shut this board down if this was to happen [But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain ]
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Post by maryhig on Jun 26, 2015 4:21:03 GMT -5
you could just about shut this board down if this was to happen [ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain] Yes, when I read that I also thought this board can get like this sometimes. But then we see gems of light, like your milk bottle that you posted today!
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LL
Jun 26, 2015 4:35:57 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Jun 26, 2015 4:35:57 GMT -5
So "not by faith alone" has to have context, yet "by faith alone" doesn't??? Here's the context... "By faith alone" needs no context - it is the essence of Scripture and the power of God to save. I'm not really interested in commenting on one verse in isolation of what the Bible is saying, hence the comment. Likewise, there's not a lot of point in commenting on the "enduring to the end" verse in isolation of what the Bible is saying. If we can't accept that You seem about as impatient with folks questioning your worldview as the workers were with you questioning theirs.
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Post by rational on Jun 26, 2015 7:53:52 GMT -5
Sometimes it is difficult to remain on the high road and still make your point. Probably worth the effort. Ross You have put a lot and effort in answering a letter that was not written to you; well done! Say; as well as posting your effort on TMB would happen to have sent a copy of it to your professing family members? or To the sources/network you still have amongst the friends who supply you with a bit of gossip, innuendo and fact that you quote in your posts? That might be just the thing to help those poor misguided souls! Why did you post your response here? a)Leroy didn't post his letter on TMB and b)won't be expecting a reply from a disaffected person who left the church 15 or so years ago. So it wasn't aimed at him. Addressing it to him and signing it off as 'yours by his grace' I guess is just a part of the parcel of tricks and posturing you employ in your posts? I guess you just used his letter as a platform to have yet another crack at the church you left; would that be right? So members who read hear how wrong the church is and maybe help some poor soul to leave it and get the 'real thing' at an anglican evangelical church or such?
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LL
Jun 26, 2015 9:14:53 GMT -5
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jun 26, 2015 9:14:53 GMT -5
South of the Border, are you a Mexican now Bert ? Come clean Ross, I think you may know where he is. There you go fred, I'm not the only one up there on a "high horse".
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