What Is Truth
New Member
John 4:25 "I know that Messias cometh......when he is come, he will tell us all things."
Posts: 5
|
LL
Jun 20, 2015 22:00:08 GMT -5
Post by What Is Truth on Jun 20, 2015 22:00:08 GMT -5
letter of general concerns - Leroy Lerwick ~ June 2015
Some have asked me what changes I see, in coming back to the US after 7 years away. I have heard of some cases of those who have been professing, mostly 3rd and 4th or even 5th generation of faithful families, who seem to be influenced by the age of tolerance in which we live, and the accepted attitude that there are good people in the churches who are sincere, and perhaps they can be saved also, although they serve God in a way contrary to the scriptures. Accommodating one´s way of life and activities until there is little difference, results in no rejection, no reproach, in being accepted. This undermines our faith, hides the light our life should be for others and if the only remaining difference between them and us is the ministry and meeting in a home, how can we defend our faith? Although it is not something that we have discussed face to face with many, perhaps I can write some thoughts that have been coming to me, that are like a picture. Yes, a picture, a word picture, one in which I think we can see such people as God sees them, and maybe we can find ourselves in this picture also. Maybe we can see Jesus as he really is, in this picture. Maybe if we can see that, we can see ourselves, and our true condition. Words can express what a camera never can. Sometimes even what we cannot express or communicate when we are face to face. These are words that are born out of the love in our heart for God´s people. Paul strongly resisted the influence of other doctrines when he wrote his letters to the churches. Because wickedness abounds the love of many would wax cold.
In the far north men die of the cold, at first they are alarmed, shivering in the cold, but as their temperature decreases, they have a sensation of warmth, and an illusion that they are ok, they just need to sleep, and they lay down and die. The enemy of our soul also has words, and mouths to speak them. Words can help our faith, faith comes by hearing the word, but words can also deceive. Deception… The world began that way. The Prince of this world came talking, in the garden, he talked about what God had said, questioned it with an eloquence that appealed to Eve. “Did God really say you would die? You will not really die.” He can lie without lying. True, they were not going to die physically right away, if they partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Physically they would die eventually, even if they did not partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And that did not change; they eventually died according to the genetic code they were created with, which was capable of regenerating their body for a thousand years. But spiritually, they died. What a thought, that the prince of this world sowed in them with his statement of truth that made them believe a lie! “Now we know something important, that God did not really tell us, thanks to this serpent! We have some special knowledge, that makes us wise, even wiser than God, and we do not have to obey his counsel to not partake of this tree of wisdom. There will be no consequence.” They saw that it was good to look upon, satisfied their human appetites, and made them think they were wise! But they died. They died spiritually. They realized they were naked, they needed to be clothed, but they were now wise, they could take care of that, no problem. They made themselves clothing; they chose the material, chose the style. So is false religion, we need to do something, we need to cover our defects, our nakedness, and we are wise, we can choose how to cover ourselves, what to believe, and they felt very comfortable with each other, this new wisdom produced a human satisfaction, that seemed like peace, and seemed like righteousness, the serpent would have praised them! “You look wonderful, beautiful, etc.” They would have felt so good. But they had died.
The peace they experienced is the peace when there is no life. All of their being was at rest. All was wonderful, but then God came. The prince of the world came talking, but God came walking. They heard, and they hid themselves. Suddenly their wonderful provision was of no avail. There was a provision made for them, some innocent animals had to die, and God clothed them with their skins. He did not ask them what style they would want, He just clothed them. There were consequences, a lifelong struggle between them and the serpent, who would try to hinder their walk with God, but they could bruise his head by walking with God. He will never give up, he may leave us for a season, but he will never give up. There was the curse on the ground, which brought forth weeds, and the sweat of Adam´s brow to earn his bread, rather than the provision of the garden. There were the pains of childbirth for Eve. But those two consequences bring blessing when we accept them. When we try to earn our bread without the sweat of our brow, taking advantage of others to enrich ourselves, or seek to avoid the pains and sorrows that come with life, we miss it all.
There are clear parallels to these two consequences. The world is full of ways to make monetary gain from the teachings of Jesus and the labors of others. There are many multilevel schemes to promote products and ideas. Some of our friends in South America lost a great deal of money in such schemes that promised to double their investment in a short time. They that will be rich without honest labor and providing a needed product or service pierce themselves through with many sorrows. We have seen many who have great enthusiasm for sharing the gospel as they see it when there is a monetary gain in doing so. In the same manner, considering the consequence for Eve, the world is full of doctrines which are supposed to cost us nothing, no pain, no suffering, no temptations, but only give us a fantasy, like a little girl who has a doll and thinks she is a mother. There is no pain, no work, no sickness, but some great imagination. Just like a doll, that can be left and forgotten, suffers no harm from the neglect, so a “salvation” that is a fantasy that is born out of a belief that all we have to do is believe, and once we are saved we are a child of God and cannot lose our salvation no matter what happens, does not suffer for the lack of effort or care on our part. Very different from the real salvation that can only come when we are born again and God works the likeness of his Son in us as we endure the tests and trials of life, that make us so dependent on Him.
Paul wrote a letter expressing his great love and concern for the Galatians. He marveled that so soon they had given ear to another gospel, not that there is another gospel, but many pervert the gospel. He knew they were listening to those Jewish Christians who wanted to avoid the criticism from their Jewish relatives who reproached them for having fellowship with uncircumcised gentiles. They knew that if they could convince the gentile Christians to keep at least a part of the law of Moses they would escape the cross of being identified with Jesus’s doctrine that was not acceptable to most of the Jews. Paul did not say, "as long as you are sincere, there should be no harm in circumcising yourselves, and keeping some of the law, and our relatives will be happy, they will no longer reproach us. God is a loving God and understands us, and he doesn’t want us to suffer." No, he did not say that. Had he thought that he would not have written one of his letters! They had begun to follow the doctrine of Jesus, and as they also faced some persecution, this doctrine appealed to them. "We don’t have to die to ourselves, to the world." It sounded good. But it produced a different fruit in their lives. The keeping of the law without faith in Christ only produced human righteousness and a feeling of superiority over the gentiles, since they had some special knowledge the gentiles did not have. It produced a spirit of criticism, towards others. It produced self-confidence, pride, trusting in themselves that they were righteous, and despising others. That was the only fruit it could produce. The only doctrine that could produce the righteousness of Christ was what Jesus taught, ALL of what he taught. We cannot pick and choose. It is very easy to take a verse and build a doctrine around it, and ignore other verses that have to do with the subject. Only when we take in to account every verse that has to do with a subject, and understand them in a way that does not produce any contradiction, can we be sure that our belief is correct. It is like a puzzle. There are many pieces; some are cut almost the same. We can put a piece where it does not belong, which means the piece that goes there has to be misplaced also. Maybe they almost fit, but they pop out, we press them back in, and continue. We finally get it all together, but the picture is not there, only a confusion of colors. We cannot choose the pieces that are the colors we like, and reject the colors we don’t like. We won’t see the final picture.
So Paul was very concerned. Why was he so concerned? Because he loved them, he would lay down his life for them. He compared himself to a mother, who had gone through the pains of childbirth, struggling with them as they listened to the word, as they resisted, then accepted, little by little, as God worked into them the needed concepts that can produce life. But they were like a child that had been born, with life, and begins to grow, and becomes like Jesus, but they began to feed on another gospel, not that there is another gospel, but many pervert the gospel, remove the parts that do not appeal, stress and twist the parts that do appeal so they will appeal even more. And that was destroying the likeness of Christ in them. They were dying spiritually. They thought they were improving, no struggles, less criticism, it all sounded so good. They enjoyed the feeling of security that special knowledge gives, of esteeming themselves for the works they were doing. But they were dying spiritually. Paul said he was willing; willing to go through all the process of the pains of childbirth again, till Christ would be formed in them again. Would a mother, who suffers greatly to give birth to her child, and then the child becomes ill, and dies, would she be thinking, if only I could take him into my womb again, and give him life, even if I had to suffer all the pains of childbirth again, it would be worth it, to bring him to life again? Paul was willing to do that, every true servant of God is willing to do that. Did the Galatians respond to that great cry of love towards them? We do not know. What they were listening to was causing spiritual death in them, and that was bringing a comfortable feeling.
If we have life, spiritual life, we will have an appetite for the milk of the word, we will not be satisfied with what we are, and no more than a growing child is satisfied with his or her stature. A true child of God can learn to be content with what he or she has, in this world, in things material, but will always want to grow, develop, to be more like Christ. If we partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we might be content with what we are, think we are perfect, but will never be content with what we have. Our self-esteem becomes dependent on that, what we do, what we have, being accepted by others, praised by them, and that destroys the childlike spirit that is so necessary if there is going to be a true work of the Spirit in our heart and soul. Paul makes it so clear also in his letter to the Philippians, "not having his own righteousness which is of the law, he was at one time proud of that, a Pharisee without spot, blameless, perfect, but when he saw the true righteousness of Christ, his own was as refuse, garbage, to be rejected, after he believed and had walked many years in the ministry, he did not feel he had fully attained, pressing on to the mark, a true sign of new life.
People seek happiness, satisfaction, to feel good about themselves. Some seek it in pleasures, substances, become addicted to it, and we live in an age where there are so many things available. But it is only for a moment, the same level of high becomes mundane and routine, we need something more, and more. There are emotional highs, pep rally type environments, in social circles even business, and in religion, that make people feel good, and in religion it seems to them that they are receiving the Spirit of God. But it is a false sense of happiness, of peace and joy, which only comes when they are in the atmosphere. They are indoctrinated to believe that if they are well, prospering, and among people who appreciate and praise them, that they have the blessing of God. For those who do achieve these things, it produces a feeling of superiority, and they share with others their wonderful experience of how God has blessed them because they are good. If in life we have what we need, it is because God is good, not us, in sending the rain and the sun over the good and the evil. For those who believe the doctrine of prosperity, but have no success at it, are not blessed with good health, are not blessed with an ability to invest wisely and have success financially, the doctrine produces discouragement, envy towards the successful and even resentment towards God, and the prince of this world is so pleased.
We live in an age when everything is tolerated, even evil and wrong things, life styles, are tolerated. The only thing that is not truly tolerated is the true righteousness and doctrine of Christ, his humility, simplicity, purity, his ministry he established. It may be more tolerated or ignored in the religious world than it once was, but there will still be those who hate it, wish to destroy it, try to discourage those who wish to follow the narrow way, because they know it, perhaps were raised by parents who live it, have rejected it, and cannot tolerate that others can enjoy it. Such become the persecutors. Every Christian religion was established in the beginning with the concern and purpose to reestablish the true doctrine as it was in the first century. Every one of them thought they had attained to that. True, they corrected many things that were so wrong in the catholic universal church, but none of them was willing to go back to the true ministry, to preach the gospel without any form of monetary interest. He who preaches for a salary must please those who pay the salary. If not, he loses his position. It is impossible to preach the truth, all of the truth, if we are being paid to do it. He who pays the salary controls the message.
All through the scriptures, from Genesis to Revelations, it is crystal clear that it is God who determines what we should believe, and he does not tolerate us changing his teachings. There is not one example anywhere in the bible where we can say that men came up with a better idea, and God accepted it. It seems reasonable to our human mind, especially in our age of tolerance, that there must be good people in every religion who are sincere and righteous and are saved. All who promote this doctrine defend it only with human reasoning, nothing from the scriptures. In our efforts to be accepted, avoid the cross and rejection, of which the scriptures are very clear, "yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3.12) and " As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised: only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ."(Galatians 6.12) - we become so much like the naturally good people in the world around us that we begin to think, maybe they are all saved! When we should be thinking, "what am I saved from, if I am just like everyone else?" The doctrine of "grace" that Jesus did everything, and we only have to believe, has made the way so broad no one is excluded.
Much is made of the verses in Romans 8.35-39. True, if we are faithful, since God cannot be unfaithful, nothing can take away our salvation, but we can take ourselves out of His will and protection. Little attention is given to these verses in Romans 9.22 regarding the olive branches which were the Jews which did not believe and were cut off, that we as wild olive branches can be grafted in: "Boast not... For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off!" Such is the deception of picking and choosing the verses that agree with what we want to believe. Can we trust our own judgment? Not if we are seeking our own will. We will filter the information to keep only what agrees with our belief. Only when we become as a little child, willing for all that God would teach us, are we free from self-deception. The religious people in Jesus’s day were fully convinced they were children of God. But were they? Jesus gives us the answer to that. They had added to the scriptures, took away from the scriptures, and formed their denominations adapting the old covenant to their liking. The Christian world has done the same with Jesus’s teachings, and all are "saved" just like the Jews thought they were. God had taken away the natural blessing he promised to the Jews if they obeyed the law, and thus there were great multitudes of sick people, not because they were worshiping idols as in other occasions in the Old Testament, but because they had perverted the law with their traditions and teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. They believed that they could not do good on the Sabbath day. They had added that to the law.
Jesus could have said to the ones that came to be healed: "you know, the Pharisees are going to be offended if I heal you today, Saturday, and I don’t want to offend them. The law does not prohibit doing good on the Sabbath, but they believe that, so come back tomorrow, and I will heal you tomorrow." If he had done that, if he would have approved all their doctrines, he would have never been crucified. It was the "sinners," the publicans the harlots, those the Pharisees had rejected and considered beyond salvation, who gladly heard Jesus. They were far from perfect, but they were needy. God has compassion on such, but rejects those who consider themselves perfect, as did the Pharisees. Far better to be a struggling soul, trying by the grace of God to take steps of faith, than to live in a fantasy world of believing we are beyond temptation and sin. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. We must have a perfect purpose, a perfect heart, but we will always be aware of our human condition, and what the human is capable of. A field can be planted to good seed and cultivated a thousand years, and yet one year that it is left to itself, it will be full of weeds.
So, where are we? Who are we? God is a just God, in spite of what we want to believe, His word is right. The Ark of the Covenant had to be carried on the shoulders of two Levites. After it was returned to Israel by the philistines it was many years, 20 it says, a long time, in the home of a family. It was much longer than 20 years. It was from the days of Samuel, through the 40 years of Saul´s reign, and into the reign of David, that they had not enquired of it. David prepared place for it, consulted with all the people, "if it seem good to them, and if it be the Lords will,” to bring it to the place he had prepared for it. There was the danger: If it seems good to all, and, if it be the Lords will. It should have been, "If it be the Lords will, and then it will seem good to us." They made a new cart. They had never seen the ark which represented the presence of God, among the people, carried on the shoulders of two Levites, which was a type and shadow of the new testament ministry, that the gospel would be carried to people by two of the apostles who were living and show Christ to others by their way of life and how they treated each other. It was in the scriptures, but they had not seen that done, since the time it was taken captive by the philistines. It worked! They went up hills, down hills, crossed fields and streams, rocks and holes, and it worked! If the two Levites that were directors, instead of burden bearers, did remember what the scriptures said, they would have been feeling quite proud of themselves for having improved on the way to worship, freeing themselves from being servants and burden bearers, and becoming directors.
Many justify their commercialization of Christianity, saying, God has blessed them, with a large congregation, a beautiful temple, music program, social programs etc., it works for them. It worked, yes; it worked until they came to the threshing floor. The threshing floor was a flat place, a hard surface, where they placed the wheat bundles, for the oxen to tread on to separate the grain from the straw. It represents the place of judgment. And there, on a flat hard surface, where oxen always walked and never stumbled, the oxen stumbled! One of the men reached forth his hand to stay the ark, and he died! It is so clear, if we are willing to receive it, that sure, we can modernize our way of serving God, do it as we have seen it done, not as the scriptures say, and it seems to be working, but what awaits us, on the judgment day?
God is not mocked. Maybe some won´t see much in this word picture, maybe we won’t see ourselves in this picture, but I hope all can see in a measure the care, love and concern that Gods servants have for His people. Our enemy is cunning, far more cunning than we. We are no match for him. For those who oppose themselves and refuse sound doctrine we can pray and pray we will, as we read in James, that Elijah prayed that it would not rain, and it did not rain for over three years. It was not that he wanted to punish Israel, who all thought they were right, but in the way of transgression, that they would have no peace, no rest, no satisfaction. God is able to bring us through experiences to wake us up, to bring us to himself, as a chastised child to find the true comfort we thought we had.
With much love and care, LeRoy LerwickA
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
LL
Jun 20, 2015 22:24:48 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 22:24:48 GMT -5
thanks...good stuff
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
LL
Jun 20, 2015 22:37:20 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 22:37:20 GMT -5
Who gave you permission to publish this?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 22:49:26 GMT -5
I am always amused when I read an article like LeRoy's. Quick to condem other Churches. I always wonder if they bother to get of their backside, go to these Churches and find out first hand. It is easy to sit in a lounge chair and be an expert, without real knowledge. If it is a Christian Church and you take the time to go there, you will find they preach the same Christ, worship the same God. Maybe some differences in ritual, so what, the message is the same as 2x2.
It is a bit like a person who will only drive a Ford car, and says that all other cars are rubbish. The person who is able to make a judgment is someone who is willing to test drive all makes. Get out of the lounge chair, don't isolate yourself, go to all Churches, you may learn something. Don't leave out the Catholic Church, lots to learn there. This has been my practice, but never only stick with one. It is great fun, you learn a lot.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jun 20, 2015 22:50:25 GMT -5
Who gave you permission to publish this? R L Allen & Sons Freely you have received - freely give Author acknowledged - seems to be following the rules.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 20, 2015 23:35:25 GMT -5
I am always amused when I read an article like LeRoy's. Quick to condem other Churches. I always wonder if they bother to get of their backside, go to these Churches and find out first hand. It is easy to sit in a lounge chair and be an expert, without real knowledge. If it is a Christian Church and you take the time to go there, you will find they preach the same Christ, worship the same God. Maybe some differences in ritual, so what, the message is the same as 2x2. It is a bit like a person who will only drive a Ford car, and says that all other cars are rubbish. The person who is able to make a judgment is someone who is willing to test drive all makes. Get out of the lounge chair, don't isolate yourself, go to all Churches, you may learn something. Don't leave out the Catholic Church, lots to learn there. This has been my practice, but never only stick with one. It is great fun, you learn a lot. I believe God looks at the heart of each person, and judges each individual. But I believe that the teachings of many mainstream Christian churches are wrong. Anyone that is teaching that you are saved and going to heaven just by saying I believe is wrong, IMO. To believe is to do what Jesus teaches. By teaching "once saved always saved" they are making the life of Jesus to no effect! Take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, where does that come into the "your already saved " doctrine? Or those who endure to the end the same shall be saved. Where does that come in? How about getting paid for doing Gods work, wheres that in the bible? Or building big temples, having excessive money, letting Jesus do it all and we just believe? Jesus never once said that, he said that we have to suffer and deny the sins of the flesh and the world and follow him! If the way of mainstream Christianity was right, then none of the followers of Jesus (apostles or deciples) at that time would have suffered, because he did it all and they would be saved. But they did suffer. They denied sin and Satan and the world was left behind in their lives! No big expensive luxuries and big houses, they lived in caves and humble accommodation. Paul himself lived in a rented house. Just like the rented house of our body that we live in whilst we're here. It's not ours, it's Gods, And if we want to remain alive in God we must pay a price. And that price is our life. We must become a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God! There's nothing to sacrifice if you're already saved. The only thing were saved from in this life, is sinful flesh, the works of the world and Satan. And we do this by letting Christ in and he will help is overcome the world within our hearts. This is how he is saving us. He is saving us from Satan daily, through showing us in our hearts what's right and wrong and how to die to self and giving us the strength through the holy spirit to endure the sufferings of our cross! And if we keep our faith and believe. He will remain with us and Gods holy spirit will guide us until the end of our days! 1 peter 4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you. It's the will of God for us to suffer if we believe in Jesus, because we allowed sin into our hearts in the first place. And sin in the heart has no place with God. So if you want God in your heart, wilful sin has to go, sin will remain because Satan is ever present, but wilful sin must go!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 20, 2015 23:51:51 GMT -5
Who gave you permission to publish this? I for one am glad to read this. Much of this is how I believe! It's great for me to read this instead of all the bickering and insults on here! I thought it was really good!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2015 23:54:34 GMT -5
Maryhig, with respect have you taken the time to go to another Church and learn for yourself. Don't just rely on the words of others. I will not debate theology with you, as I am very weak on that subject, you would be all over me. I prefer to learn by experience, and I can only tell it as I find it. Go for a test drive, you might be surprised.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 21, 2015 0:30:17 GMT -5
Maryhig, with respect have you taken the time to go to another Church and learn for yourself. Don't just rely on the words of others. I will not debate theology with you, as I am very weak on that subject, you would be all over me. I prefer to learn by experience, and I can only tell it as I find it. Hi Redback I really don't mean the people, I mean the religions. I don't know the anyone's hearts and I'm not a judge. I wouldn't judge one single person, because I'm a sinner. But what I can see in many Christian religions is that the teachings are wrong. Because they are not teaching the way of Jesus! To follow Jesus is to suffer. That's what endure means. How can we be saved and yet not saved unless we endure to the end? It doesn't make sense to me. It makes sense to me that if we endure and deny the world of sin and flesh and follow Jesus that at the end of our lives we will be saved. How can we say were saved and then purposely sin? Jesus said to the Pharisees, because you say you see, your sin remains! John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. If we see, then we shouldn't be purposely sinning. And if our sin can remain then were not yet saved. Their sin remained because they didn't believe in Jesus and when he showed them their sin they fought against him rather than listening. I want Christ to show me my sin, so I can stop doing it. But how can he show me my sins, if I'm so sure that I'm ok and already saved? What about the preachers on TV, fleecing people for millions, saying they're saved and their so sure they're going to heaven because they believe, yet they're conmen! I have even heard people say that they have their wealth from God. God has nothing to do with wealth or money. That's worldly! Jesus said, you cannot serve God and Mammon, Mammon is wealth. These people are corrupt conmen gaining wealth through peoples naivety! Yet they are so sure that they are already saved! I just prefer to follow the actual teachings of Jesus, and not the ways of religions. Then I feel I'm following him right. But as I said, I believe that God looks at our hearts individually. And knows if we have had the chance to hear the real truth. And I am judged on this also!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 0:42:43 GMT -5
Leroy also mentioned that "Worldly Ministers"do a good job, to satisfy the congregation otherwise they could get thrown out. Just not true. Some time ago I was invited to be a Treasurer of a Church that I wasn't even a member of. One of my tasks was to make sure the Minister received his monthly stipend. I can tell you it was well below wage standards. Workers also get paid by the congregation, the only difference being there is no accounting. It is a joke to say they go forth without script and purse. They have a laptop and a bank account. With that you do not need script and purse.
I have a Cousin in the work, several times he has had a windfall from relative estates. It has been put in his bank account, as told to me by his Brother. This is not wrong as I know he shares his fortune with other Workers, and also uses it to work overseas. This is good, no problem. But let us face facts, Workers need money to buy laptops, mobile phones, air tickets, petrol for the car, rent for accomadation, clothes, food,etc. Nothing wrong with that. This money comes from the congregation, or if you are lucky from an estate. It does not drop out of the sky like manna, lets not pretend it does.
|
|
|
LL
Jun 21, 2015 4:21:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Roselyn T likes this
Post by Mary on Jun 21, 2015 4:21:31 GMT -5
I doubt very much that when God sent Jesus to die on the Cross 2,000 years ago that he meant for a little group of professing people to be the only ones saved. What a empty place heaven would be. Millions of people in hell and only a handful in heaven. What a waste of eternity and surely William Irvine who started this whole thing will be there, after all God used him to restore the true church of which only they are saved.
Sound ridiculous. Sure does!!
It completely ignores whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. And John 3:16. And the multitude that no man can number.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 21, 2015 4:35:40 GMT -5
All this raving from one thing to the next without any indication of what the Gospel is. All because some believe that there might be people in other churches who are saved. Does it not concern you Maryhig that this worker does not believe anyone outside of his fellowship is saved? Maybe someone needs to tell this worker that his church was only started 115 years ago by a guy called William Irvine who was later found to be some kind of false teacher and you guys are following this church that was started by him. Who are those who have got killed for their faith? No workers but the other Christians he condemns. There have been many who have given up all to preach the Gospel but none of that is to do with salvation. Salvation is in Jesus not our own works. Money- well the workers have all they want and lack nothing. They have to preach to tow the line or they will be out as some have found out. Mary, even though I do agree with much of what he says, I don't agree with anyone outside the fellowship won't be saved, anyway that includes me too doesn't it? And I don't know who will be saved. I'm not a judge! Including myself, I could go wrong at anytime. I don't think it's our works that save us. It is believing in Jesus and loving God with all our hearts. But if we believe we will do what he taught us! And that is to deny the sins of our flesh and to remain unspotted from the world. I don't know all the people here I can only go by my experience and the people around me. Only God knows our hearts. But I would find it hard to believe that only one religion is saved. That's not right. It's one way, and that way is following Jesus, and living as he taught us to live. Loving God with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves and giving our life to God! I don't know the workers and I don't know your ministers or the people in your church. I don't know their hearts. Only God can judge that. I'm talking about religion not people!
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Jun 21, 2015 8:19:26 GMT -5
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1Cor 15:3,4
"another gospel", than the one Paul had received , would be one in which you worked for and "earned" your salvation, by trying to follow a set of rules, commandments , disciplines , etc. etc. , which Paul had clearly excercised , as a Pharisee, and which he now considered complete rubbish and basically called it BS. (he called it dung) NOT "good news" (gospel), at all. Alvin
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
LL
Jun 21, 2015 8:25:55 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 8:25:55 GMT -5
The theory that Jesus gave grace and Paul gave works is "supported" by ignoring most of what Jesus said, and what Paul wrote.
What Jesus said. Verses counted in Red Letter Bible.
23% of Matthew's Gospel is concerned with works.
20% of Mark's Gospel is concerned with works.
26% of Luke's Gospel is concerned with works.
8% of John's Gospel is concerned with works.
Jesus not only was more insistent upon works, but he felt He had the right to destroy those who wouldn't obey, along with their nation and children.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Jun 21, 2015 8:37:12 GMT -5
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
Of course, a believer, will excercise and have "works", but not as a condition for salvation, but a result of. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Jun 21, 2015 8:37:35 GMT -5
This theory that Jesus gave grace and Paul gave works is support by ignoring most of what Jesus said.
23% of Matthew's Gospel is concerned with works.
20% of Mark's Gospel is concerned with works.
26% of Luke's Gospel is concerned with works.
8% of John's Gospel is concerned with works.
Jesus not only was more insistent upon works, but he felt He had the right to destroy those who wouldn't obey, along with their nation and children. ...per 100 what? Words? Characters? Concepts? Finger breadths of vellum?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 8:43:59 GMT -5
I counted the red verses in a Red Letter Bible.
We are going to be judged against these Words.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 21, 2015 9:13:21 GMT -5
How are the works not important? If God is working in our hearts, we will live it out! That's what James meant by, I'll show you my faith by my works. He meant because he had faith, and Gods holy spirit was working within, James was showing God outwardly. By his teachings and his life!
This is Paul
2 Timothy 3
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
What works are these that Paul is talking about?
|
|
|
LL
Jun 21, 2015 9:32:46 GMT -5
Post by What Hat on Jun 21, 2015 9:32:46 GMT -5
Maryhig, with respect have you taken the time to go to another Church and learn for yourself. Don't just rely on the words of others. I will not debate theology with you, as I am very weak on that subject, you would be all over me. I prefer to learn by experience, and I can only tell it as I find it. Go for a test drive, you might be surprised. Or not. I wouldn't bother, maryhig, again speaking only from my own experience. Multi-faith conferences, seminars and community Christmas programs can be good though. Now that I think about it, "the sermon" no matter where it comes from is generally the most dreary part of the entire Christian experience. Conventions and conferences aren't bad because at least you get a mix, and the speakers work on what they're going to say. The weekly Sunday sermon and the gospel meeting are both near the bottom of the barrel for general time wasting in a Christian context.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 21, 2015 9:38:06 GMT -5
Leroy also mentioned that "Worldly Ministers"do a good job, to satisfy the congregation otherwise they could get thrown out. Just not true. Some time ago I was invited to be a Treasurer of a Church that I wasn't even a member of. One of my tasks was to make sure the Minister received his monthly stipend. I can tell you it was well below wage standards. Workers also get paid by the congregation, the only difference being there is no accounting. It is a joke to say they go forth without script and purse. They have a laptop and a bank account. With that you do not need script and purse. I have a Cousin in the work, several times he has had a windfall from relative estates. It has been put in his bank account, as told to me by his Brother. This is not wrong as I know he shares his fortune with other Workers, and also uses it to work overseas. This is good, no problem. But let us face facts, Workers need money to buy laptops, mobile phones, air tickets, petrol for the car, rent for accomadation, clothes, food,etc. Nothing wrong with that. This money comes from the congregation, or if you are lucky from an estate. It does not drop out of the sky like manna, lets not pretend it does. I don't know the people you talk about, but we've been taught it's better to have nothing and deny wealth and money and just ask God to provide what we need to live and have faith. And he hasn't let me down! My husband and I could have a lot more. But I feel that following Jesus is denying wealth, this is a part of the suffering. I wouldn't take a penny for doing anything for God. I believe this is wrong to do so. God does bless us with the life of his spirit in the heart for a price, but that price is your life! And to become stronger then we have to deny sin including excess wealth. We have to be an example for others, to show his love in our life so people see the life of Christ through us. Where in the bible do you see Jesus rolling in wealth and being in with the money men? He was humble, full of love, and had nothing of the world. His heart was on Gods hands! Jesus said Give what belongs to caesar to caesar and what belongs to God, to God. Money has nothing to do with God, wealth from God is understanding and wisdom and we receive this through following Jesus and denying the world and receiving Gods holy spirit in the heart! Excess money belongs to the world and the lusts of it! Edit; this just came to me Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Jun 21, 2015 9:39:31 GMT -5
Who gave you permission to publish this? R L Allen & Sons Freely you have received - freely give Author acknowledged - seems to be following the rules. It's questionable. Bert would never make a meal of this in a court challenge, for many reasons. If the letter is offered for general circulation to the friends, then its republication on the 'net doesn't create any privacy or copyright issues that I can see. If the workers were concerned, they could add a footnote to such a letter, as you find on most corporate emails these days. "This letter is intended only for the named recipient and not to be transmitted, copied, published on the Internet ... et cetera" which at least provides some ethical grounds for it not to be circulated as it clearly identifies the intention of the sender.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 21, 2015 12:05:55 GMT -5
Who gave you permission to publish this? Why are you so intent on making sure anything the workers say is hidden from those outside the membership of your church? I truly don't understand this line of reason?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 21, 2015 12:18:28 GMT -5
It's the will of God for us to suffer if we believe in Jesus, because we allowed sin into our hearts in the first place. For me, this sentence is one of the saddest I think I have heard in a long time. That people believe that it's God's will for us to suffer just makes me feel like crying. Why would a loving God, and that's what you say your God is Maryhig, ever want those he loved to suffer? If we are like children to this God and he is a parent figure as some say, what parent would want their children to suffer? I truly cannot comprehend the reasoning of this. Life is about joy and love, and yes we do suffer sometimes, but to believe it is the will of a supposedly loving God that we suffer just goes way beyond my comprehension.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 21, 2015 12:48:06 GMT -5
It's the will of God for us to suffer if we believe in Jesus, because we allowed sin into our hearts in the first place. For me, this sentence is one of the saddest I think I have heard in a long time. That people believe that it's God's will for us to suffer just makes me feel like crying. Why would a loving God, and that's what you say your God is Maryhig, ever want those he loved to suffer? If we are like children to this God and he is a parent figure as some say, what parent would want their children to suffer? I truly cannot comprehend the reasoning of this. Life is about joy and love, and yes we do suffer sometimes, but to believe it is the will of a supposedly loving God that we suffer just goes way beyond my comprehension. Then you must not know what I mean by this? If I was a drug addict, the only way I would become well is to suffer first to make me well. I'm not talking about God being wicked to me. He's full of love, but I have allowed myself to do wrong things in my life. So i must now go through the suffering of letting them go. For example. And I'm going to be really honest about myself. I could hold things really badly sometimes. It made me to be not a very nice person sometimes. It had to go, God softened my heart but at first I had to fight it. Now as time has gone by, I let go so much quicker and forgive quicker. And it makes me not be in so much pain by letting that hardness go. Because Satan had me over a barrel in many ways. My burdens were heavy. But Christ has lightened my burden and my heart is so much happier. I'm much more free! I still have a way to go, but I'm a work in progress I may suffer snow, but my heart is free, and I am willing to go through it. Because God has showed me my faults and now bit by bit they have to go. I didn't realise how wrong I was, until Jesus shined a bright light onto my heart and showed all the dirt within me! Can you imagine snow, if we all took Christ into our hearts and fought the sins within, what the world would be like?
|
|
|
LL
Jun 21, 2015 13:34:19 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jun 21, 2015 13:34:19 GMT -5
For me, this sentence is one of the saddest I think I have heard in a long time. That people believe that it's God's will for us to suffer just makes me feel like crying. Why would a loving God, and that's what you say your God is Maryhig, ever want those he loved to suffer? If we are like children to this God and he is a parent figure as some say, what parent would want their children to suffer? I truly cannot comprehend the reasoning of this. Life is about joy and love, and yes we do suffer sometimes, but to believe it is the will of a supposedly loving God that we suffer just goes way beyond my comprehension. Then you must not know what I mean by this? If I was a drug addict, the only way I would become well is to suffer first to make me well. I'm not talking about God being wicked to me. He's full of love, but I have allowed myself to do wrong things in my life. So i must now go through the suffering of letting them go. For example. And I'm going to be really honest about myself. I could hold things really badly sometimes. It made me to be not a very nice person sometimes. It had to go, God softened my heart but at first I had to fight it. Now as time has gone by, I let go so much quicker and forgive quicker. And it makes me not be in so much pain by letting that hardness go. Because Satan had me over a barrel in many ways. My burdens were heavy. But Christ has lightened my burden and my heart is so much happier. I'm much more free! I still have a way to go, but I'm a work in progress I may suffer snow, but my heart is free, and I am willing to go through it. Because God has showed me my faults and now bit by bit they have to go. I didn't realise how wrong I was, until Jesus shined a bright light onto my heart and showed all the dirt within me! Can you imagine snow, if we all took Christ into our hearts and fought the sins within, what the world would be like? You're right I don't know what you mean. You said it was God's will that you suffer and so what else would anyone think about that statement? I really don't think that Christ in our hearts is the answer but people understanding that the harm we do to others also harms us at some level. I think that we have really no concept about how something we do or say can have huge implications down the line. We tend to see ourselves as an island not really impacting the world around us. But I see what we do and say as having the possibility to have a domino effect. An example of what I mean is this: Say you walk into a store and ream out the clerk because you're in a crappy mood and she did something that you considered wrong. This changes her outlook on her day and it may effect the next person she deals with who may be having a very awful day to start with. That person may have been considering committing suicide and the clerk being awful to them decided it for them. They take their life. Now an opposite scenerio. You walk into a store and make that clerks day by commenting on something that makes her day. The next person she meets she is happy and pleasant with and maybe even tries to make that person's day. That person is the same person in the above example but the outcome of having a pleasant and caring experience vs. an unpleasant one may just change the final outcome and they don't take their life. I recognize this is very arbitrary, but it is an example of what can happen, and it can be even further reaching in some cases. One never knows how far a positive comment or a negative comment can go in the world. I don't see that as having Christ in my life, but a sincere caring and love for those around me and caring about the world I live in. I don't need to please a God I need to love and be compassionate because of the impact it makes on the world I live in. That's more how I see things.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 21, 2015 14:05:29 GMT -5
Then you must not know what I mean by this? If I was a drug addict, the only way I would become well is to suffer first to make me well. I'm not talking about God being wicked to me. He's full of love, but I have allowed myself to do wrong things in my life. So i must now go through the suffering of letting them go. For example. And I'm going to be really honest about myself. I could hold things really badly sometimes. It made me to be not a very nice person sometimes. It had to go, God softened my heart but at first I had to fight it. Now as time has gone by, I let go so much quicker and forgive quicker. And it makes me not be in so much pain by letting that hardness go. Because Satan had me over a barrel in many ways. My burdens were heavy. But Christ has lightened my burden and my heart is so much happier. I'm much more free! I still have a way to go, but I'm a work in progress I may suffer snow, but my heart is free, and I am willing to go through it. Because God has showed me my faults and now bit by bit they have to go. I didn't realise how wrong I was, until Jesus shined a bright light onto my heart and showed all the dirt within me! Can you imagine snow, if we all took Christ into our hearts and fought the sins within, what the world would be like? You're right I don't know what you mean. You said it was God's will that you suffer and so what else would anyone think about that statement? I really don't think that Christ in our hearts is the answer but people understanding that the harm we do to others also harms us at some level. I think that we have really no concept about how something we do or say can have huge implications down the line. We tend to see ourselves as an island not really impacting the world around us. But I see what we do and say as having the possibility to have a domino effect. An example of what I mean is this: Say you walk into a store and ream out the clerk because you're in a crappy mood and she did something that you considered wrong. This changes her outlook on her day and it may effect the next person she deals with who may be having a very awful day to start with. That person may have been considering committing suicide and the clerk being awful to them decided it for them. They take their life. Now an opposite scenerio. You walk into a store and make that clerks day by commenting on something that makes her day. The next person she meets she is happy and pleasant with and maybe even tries to make that person's day. That person is the same person in the above example but the outcome of having a pleasant and caring experience vs. an unpleasant one may just change the final outcome and they don't take their life. I recognize this is very arbitrary, but it is an example of what can happen, and it can be even further reaching in some cases. One never knows how far a positive comment or a negative comment can go in the world. I don't see that as having Christ in my life, but a sincere caring and love for those around me and caring about the world I live in. I don't need to please a God I need to love and be compassionate because of the impact it makes on the world I live in. That's more how I see things. Well now I've explained what I mean. Also, I see where your coming from, but, we have an awful lot in our hearts that is wrong and we don't realise it. We sin all the time. I know because I've lived it. I know what I was like before and after I let Christ into my heart. I was blinded to my sins. I feel so much better now and so much more at peace. I look at people in a different way. I care so much more. I am a totally different person, but I still have a long way to go!
|
|
|
Post by placid-void on Jun 21, 2015 14:21:28 GMT -5
Maryhig and snow, is there any possibility that you both are expressing the same feelings and the same beliefs but each is using a different vocabulary to express those feelings? As an observer of your conversation, I see more fundamental similarity than difference in your respective points of view.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jun 21, 2015 17:43:24 GMT -5
Back to the first post of the sermon by LL.
LL wrote: : The world is full of ways to make monetary gain from the teachings of Jesus and the labors of others. ......... We have seen many who have great enthusiasm for sharing the gospel as they see it when there is a monetary gain in doing so.
Me: This statement is false. A very very few is not many. Most do not have any monetory gain. This is the same as saying the workers only do it so they get a free car and free keep and do not have to work. The workers have the backing of an organisation that supplies them with money. Many missionaries have gone out without any backing from anyone. Pastors are not missionaries or apostles. They are pastors. Do elders in your church give up everything, no they work the same as everyone else. Pastors are like elders, in that they are over the existing flock. If those in meetings had the different ministries in the church as the Bible says then maybe he would understand that a pastor is not a missionary. The early workers started out right but they soon started becoming organised and going to man appointed areas, something Cooney resisted and got kicked out for.
LL wrote: .....there in is a fantasy that is born out of a belief that all we have to do is believe, and once we are saved we are a child of God and cannot lose our salvation no matter what happens, does not suffer for the lack of effort or care on our part.
Me: Where is the fantasy? This guy believing that only those in his church are saved. Believing that those who believe in Jesus are not saved unless they go to his church. That in lies the fantasy. Very few believe that we cannot lose our salvation if we turn our backs on God.
LL wrote: We cannot pick and choose. It is very easy to take a verse and build a doctrine around it, and ignore other verses that have to do with the subject.
Me: This is exactly what the workers have done. They have picked a few verses and built a doctrine around it. They pick and choose what verses they want and ignore others. Matthew 10 is a great example of this. They have built a whole ministry around it while ignoring other parts of it.
Matthew 10. 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
LUKE 22: 35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
(So we see that the workers pick and choose which verses they want. Jesus meant Matthew 10 while he was on earth as we see in Luke 22:37 and it was when they went to the Jews only.)
LL wrote: They are indoctrinated to believe that if they are well, prospering, and among people who appreciate and praise them, that they have the blessing of God. For those who do achieve these things, it produces a feeling of superiority, and they share with others their wonderful experience of how God has blessed them because they are good.
Me: Sounds familiar to me. Is he talking about himself and those in his fellowship. Indoctrinated, praise by men, superiority.
I am not sure why everything from Luke 22 down is in bold. I have not bolded anything in there.
|
|