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Post by faune on May 5, 2015 21:14:56 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. No When you leave a completely exclusive system you generally aren't focussed on condemning people to hell! However if I set up a new church and was a leader of that church and told people that the only way I could get to know Jesus or to heaven is through the church I've set up I think as a leader i might be on the path to destruction unless I repent. Ross ~ I agree with your statement above. It's also pretty arrogant of any religious leader to make such a claim in the first place! Perhaps such leaders need to control and manipulate people by creating such parameters as something they felt was necessary to hold people inside? No doubt that the reason the early leaders didn't drop the Living Witness Doctrine (introduced in 1904) and it's still in existence 111 years later, even though its heretical in its claim, as Edward Cooney brought out and later was excommunicated because of his opposition to such a teaching along with a number of others.
We can all be thankful for Cherie's historical TTT site on the 2x2's, which preserves the history of the movement, even if they still deny their founder and have substituted it with their own "stump theory" going back to the shores of Galilee. It just reminds me of what Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, said in the past ~ "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it."
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/15wmibook.php
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Post by What Hat on May 5, 2015 22:52:31 GMT -5
I'm always curious what are the personal motivations that cause people to write books on their negative spiritual or religious experiences? In this case, I mean. I've wondered that myself--and I don't mean anything negative by my comment. I'm out of the fellowship and happily in another church, and I don't have any need to keep looking back. I appreciate what I learned, somewhat amazed at what I didn't realize I didn't know that came to matter deeply to me in my late 50's, but still content to have it be part of my life. I recognize that I might have made better decisions in a different environment, but that I can't say for certain. Hubby, however, is different. Although he is happy to be out, and likes the teaching and the fellowship at our new church, he can't get past the negativity of the past. I don't mean to imply that I'm any better than he is. I am a very future focused person, always looking forward with happy anticipation; hubby is a very sentimental person, always looking back. Therefore the hurts of the past don't go away for him, while I assume things will get better. They generally have, from my perspective, despite a few speed bumps. Hubby doesn't assume things will get better, and even when they do, he worries that it won't last. I'm just puzzled sometimes with hubby's inability to let go of what I think is unnecessary baggage. However, perhaps I've been too flippant in moving past the negativity and not learned enough from it. I don't know. And perhaps this sort of inner orientation is relevant to why some people write these sorts of books and others don't. I appreciate folks like Cherie who have taken the time to research the fellowship, and for all who've provided their story as a resource for those who might be struggling. I especially appreciate folks who can write with minimal amount bashing and just relate their story. It sounds like perhaps Eliz has done this. But I haven't read the book yet--and I have a huge stack of unread books that will likely come first. It will be interesting to hear what Eliz has to say! I also ask the question without prejudice. There could be different reasons and I wonder what the actual reasons are, in this case.
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Post by What Hat on May 5, 2015 22:56:23 GMT -5
I'm always curious what are the personal motivations that cause people to write books on their negative spiritual or religious experiences? In this case, I mean. Whathat, what is it that personally motivates you to write here publicly and frequently on your spiritual and religious experiences? Matt10 I assume you're being sarcastic. Do you think that's not a proper question? It's usually one of the first things interviewers ask writers when they release a new book: why did you write it?
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Post by What Hat on May 5, 2015 23:01:53 GMT -5
In 30 years of going to meetings I never heard of a "Living Witness Doctrine". I didn't encounter it until I read about it on the Internet, and no doubt it was something that amused some of the workers for a time. However, I don't understand all the fuss because I don't think it's a major feature of the friends. What workers have quoted the "Living Witness Doctrine" in the last 50 years?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2015 23:41:57 GMT -5
What Hat maybe ask Felicity what her view is on this, its seems that she believes the "Living Witness Doctrine" even though they don't realise where it came from !
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Post by faune on May 6, 2015 0:28:26 GMT -5
Faune perhaps you could read a little wider,? Contact the organisation I mention? Or do you prefer that which fits your predetermined result? Review ~ I take it you do not care to comment about the "Characteristics of Cults" and how they may apply to the 2x2's by your diversion above? Did you see some character traits of cults that caused you to ignore my initial question and motivated you to question my ability to make sound judgments for myself based upon my own research? There's an old saying that goes, "If the shoe fits, wear it." In other words, if there's justification to back up the argument, perhaps we are really talking about a Bible cult here? Also, I have no idea what you mean by your statement above or what organization you might be referring to that you mentioned earlier? I don't recall you naming any myself? As far as me reading "a little wider," I assure you that I'm an avid reader and researcher of things spark my interest. Today's subject is what qualifies a group to be considered a cult.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 0:30:00 GMT -5
Whathat, what is it that personally motivates you to write here publicly and frequently on your spiritual and religious experiences? Matt10 I assume you're being sarcastic. Whathat, your assumption is wrong. And not for the first time. Matt10
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Post by faune on May 6, 2015 0:41:25 GMT -5
In 30 years of going to meetings I never heard of a "Living Witness Doctrine". I didn't encounter it until I read about it on the Internet, and no doubt it was something that amused some of the workers for a time. However, I don't understand all the fuss because I don't think it's a major feature of the friends. What workers have quoted the "Living Witness Doctrine" in the last 50 years? What Hat ~ The same here. I never heard of the Living Witness Doctrine or what it represented until two years after leaving the 2x2 and after 30 years of professing previously. However, it's the cornerstone of the workers' gospel message and that's what makes it so important. Basically, the workers put themselves on a pedestal as your "only hope of salvation" through hearing and obeying them and following in their "one and only way of salvation." This was never the message that Jesus intended through His death, burial, and resurrection for our redemption. Jesus was the Way, the Life, and the Truth ~ NOT the workers or some method they instituted and called "the Truth." The person in this article also shares your sentiment regarding lack of knowledge regarding the same. It's kept about as quiet as their founder, William Irvine, who actually instituted it as their own gospel message in 1904, and it continues to be taught the same way today, 111 years later. www.thelyingtruth.info/vot/livwitdo.php
Here's a picture graph and explanation to give you a better idea of what Living Witness Doctrine was intended to convey and how it was orchestrated in the beginning to represent the 2x2's basic gospel message. thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=256:living-witness-doctrine-who-was-first&catid=21:history&Itemid=32
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 0:53:31 GMT -5
Whathat, what is it that personally motivates you to write here publicly and frequently on your spiritual and religious experiences? Matt10 Do you think that's not a proper question? It's usually one of the first things interviewers ask writers when they release a new book: why did you write it? It is a proper question. What is peculiar is that you didn't direct your question to the author. If you really wish to know what the author thinks, I would suggest asking her directly. Matt10
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Post by Lee on May 6, 2015 1:56:14 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. Jesse, there is no hell. Hell is merely an imaginary place created in the imagination as a result of being overexposed to certain religious belief systems. So need to concern yourself with such hypothetical questions. Instead rejoice in the fact that belief in hell can be overcome and satan banished from the garden. Matt10 Hell is the persistent state of preoccupation with wrong ideas. There is neither a more fundamental nor alternative definition.
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Post by Lee on May 6, 2015 2:01:31 GMT -5
From Cult to Christ:
Haven't read the book but I get the title. From one end to another the 2x2's are sectarian and post-Catholic. If Christ offers any truth at all, he offers it for all.
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Post by What Hat on May 6, 2015 4:01:26 GMT -5
I assume you're being sarcastic. Whathat, your assumption is wrong. And not for the first time. Matt10 If it's an honest question then it seems very peculiar that you waited all these years to express such a deep interest in my own motivations in writing.
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Post by What Hat on May 6, 2015 4:04:08 GMT -5
Do you think that's not a proper question? It's usually one of the first things interviewers ask writers when they release a new book: why did you write it? It is a proper question. What is peculiar is that you didn't direct your question to the author. If you really wish to know what the author thinks, I would suggest asking her directly. Matt10 So you were being sarcastic.
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Post by What Hat on May 6, 2015 4:17:02 GMT -5
In 30 years of going to meetings I never heard of a "Living Witness Doctrine". I didn't encounter it until I read about it on the Internet, and no doubt it was something that amused some of the workers for a time. However, I don't understand all the fuss because I don't think it's a major feature of the friends. What workers have quoted the "Living Witness Doctrine" in the last 50 years? What Hat ~ The same here. I never heard of the Living Witness Doctrine or what it represented until two years after leaving the 2x2 and after 30 years of professing previously. However, it's the cornerstone of the workers' gospel message and that's what makes it so important. Basically, the workers put themselves on a pedestal as your "only hope of salvation" through hearing and obeying them and following in their "one and only way of salvation." This was never the message that Jesus intended through His death, burial, and resurrection for our redemption. Jesus was the Way, the Life, and the Truth ~ NOT the workers or some method they instituted and called "the Truth." The person in this article also shares your sentiment regarding lack of knowledge regarding the same. It's kept about as quiet as their founder, William Irvine, who actually instituted it as their own gospel message in 1904, and it continues to be taught the same way today, 111 years later. www.thelyingtruth.info/vot/livwitdo.php
Here's a picture graph and explanation to give you a better idea of what Living Witness Doctrine was intended to convey and how it was orchestrated in the beginning to represent the 2x2's basic gospel message. thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=256:living-witness-doctrine-who-was-first&catid=21:history&Itemid=32
That's not how I understand the LWD. The LWD says that you must hear the gospel from someone who has "life" in Christ. Similar to the idea of biogenesis, life begetting life in nature. Basically it's a doctrine of succession. Anyway, i've never heard this doctrine preached or even that you can only hear the gospel from a worker. But I've certainly heard that all other churches are false so I suppose that's close. I've also heard that people found the Gospel and much later, even years later, the workers came. How does that fit with LWD?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 4:30:02 GMT -5
Hberry if what you say is true it would beg the question, why choose the title "Cult to Christ"? Elizabeth's answers will be interesting. The purpose of a book title is to grab attention and get the book read. I think the title would do that quite well. And make some money along the line too.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 4:38:13 GMT -5
Well if we look at Mark 11:19 or Luke 7:34 we will see that Jusus and his apostles were called names too; whats in name, when it comes to the salvation of our souls? God will be the judge, and a Righteous Judge too , cult or no cult. Elizabeth honours, upholds and worships Christ. She isn't in the business of calling him names! Where did I make any such an accusation? So what you are saying is that she is part of the cult To Christ Jesus? Some folks believe that Christianity itself is a cult- name calling.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 4:38:38 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. Jesse, there is no hell. Hell is merely an imaginary place created in the imagination as a result of being overexposed to certain religious belief systems. So need to concern yourself with such hypothetical questions. Instead rejoice in the fact that belief in hell can be overcome and satan banished from the garden. Matt10 so Jesus didn't actually mean what He said about that imaginary place?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 4:51:06 GMT -5
Though I also never heard it identified as The LWD when I heard it and was taught it by workers and parents as a child, I believed it for years. And yes, I was taught it openly in meetings as a child, as something to believe true with all of my being. K To believe ONLY workers carried a true message of life, because they heard it through someone who had life. That is the core of The LW doctrine. No, I never knew where that doctrine came from. And yes, perhaps I did need to be set free from that teaching in order to even be aware of it as untrue. Nonetheless, I heard it taught word for word, only life begets life and compared to what I have come to know now as the 2&2 preacher's belief and doctrine that so controlled my earlier life.
For me also, it has been a journey from cult teachings to Christ and Life.
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Post by Gene on May 6, 2015 5:29:05 GMT -5
Matisse - no. Faune - no. SharonArnold - no. Maja - no Redback - no, no, no, no, etc Blacksheep - not condemned Roselyn - NO ! Cherie - no hberry - no Matt10 - there is no hell Mary - no xna - no withlove - no Elizabeth? Anyone else? no
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Post by Gene on May 6, 2015 5:33:11 GMT -5
Hey Matt10: How much of a thread like this, and book like this, and the book you mention, isn't ultimately a farce? If 2x2s aren't condemned to hell what's the point? Jesse, I'm trying not to read too much into your question "If 2x2s aren't condemned to hell what's the point?" but I admit I'm struggling. Can you expand on that question a bit? You could start with what's the point of what? The point of the new book? Of this debate about cults? Of TMB? Of the whole kit & caboodle? Something else?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 6:27:36 GMT -5
What Hat maybe ask Felicity what her view is on this, its seems that she believes the "Living Witness Doctrine" even though they don't realise where it came from ! I can't ever recall having heard the term "Living Witness Doctrine" used, apart from on the internet, but I certainly believe in the ministry established by Jesus on earth. For anyone who believes they can find Jesus without a 'living witness' on earth, who do you think has the power to baptise you ?
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 6:46:20 GMT -5
What Hat maybe ask Felicity what her view is on this, its seems that she believes the "Living Witness Doctrine" even though they don't realise where it came from ! I can't ever recall having heard the term "Living Witness Doctrine" used, apart from on the internet, but I certainly believe in the ministry established by Jesus on earth. For anyone who believes they can find Jesus without a 'living witness' on earth, who do you think has the power to baptise you ? John the Baptist reincarnate?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 6, 2015 6:46:52 GMT -5
People are baptised in other churches by ministers
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Post by Greg on May 6, 2015 6:50:41 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. Another 2x2! Is the name being adopted by the friends and workers 1x1? Perhaps my thought of a sect within the sect is in error. Hell. The grave? Yes.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 6:51:34 GMT -5
People are baptised in other churches by ministers And presumably they are living witnesses.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2015 7:12:35 GMT -5
People are baptised in other churches by ministers Yes, by ministers, not just by random members of the congregation. That makes the ministry essential wouldn't you think?
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Post by ellie on May 6, 2015 7:43:08 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. No
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Post by Mary on May 6, 2015 7:43:20 GMT -5
Any one can baptise someone.
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