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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 17:37:37 GMT -5
Quote - "After leaving The Fellowship and attending a new church for some time, it dawned on me that ministers of Christian churches rarely if ever mention themselves. If they do, it is usually to confess their own shortcomings and need of grace. The workers, on the other hand, talk of almost nothing but themselves. Where ministers use the Bible to point to Christ and to expound the gospel, workers look for ways to have it point to themselves - their work of ministry, their religious format. While ministers constantly point to the sacrifice of Jesus, workers constantly point to their own sacrifice of forsaking all."
Correct, Christian ministers rarely talk about their ministry in the same way Jesus, Paul or the Workers talk about Ministry. The simple reason for this is because Christian ministers in general repudiate that Ministry.
It is clear from what Jesus said about "corn of wheat dying" and the "son of man has nowhere to lay his head" that Ministry was part of the truth - not a salaried, home-of-your-own, disobedient adjunct to it.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 17:38:28 GMT -5
The ones who aren't actually in a cult react even worse. There are two types of cultists: Those who say they are, and those who say they aren't.... Yeh! The boastful pretenders, and the bashful deniers. That's what happens when cultism becomes fashionable, everybody wants to write a book about it; looks like the forum is fast becoming a cult too.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 5, 2015 17:48:40 GMT -5
I'm always curious what are the personal motivations that cause people to write books on their negative spiritual or religious experiences? In this case, I mean. I always see an element of this; "The exe-2x2 stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as the cultist 2x2s". I know that is an accusation constantly leveled at 2x2s. It's always interesting when people do exactly what they criticise others for doing. That has been happening a LOT on this thread. Why is that? We are not supposed to be of the number that compare themselves among ourselves because it isn't wise. So why do it? I don't get it either...
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 5, 2015 17:52:06 GMT -5
I'm always curious what are the personal motivations that cause people to write books on their negative spiritual or religious experiences? In this case, I mean. I've wondered that myself--and I don't mean anything negative by my comment. I'm out of the fellowship and happily in another church, and I don't have any need to keep looking back. I appreciate what I learned, somewhat amazed at what I didn't realize I didn't know that came to matter deeply to me in my late 50's, but still content to have it be part of my life. I recognize that I might have made better decisions in a different environment, but that I can't say for certain. Hubby, however, is different. Although he is happy to be out, and likes the teaching and the fellowship at our new church, he can't get past the negativity of the past. I don't mean to imply that I'm any better than he is. I am a very future focused person, always looking forward with happy anticipation; hubby is a very sentimental person, always looking back. Therefore the hurts of the past don't go away for him, while I assume things will get better. They generally have, from my perspective, despite a few speed bumps. Hubby doesn't assume things will get better, and even when they do, he worries that it won't last. I'm just puzzled sometimes with hubby's inability to let go of what I think is unnecessary baggage. However, perhaps I've been too flippant in moving past the negativity and not learned enough from it. I don't know. And perhaps this sort of inner orientation is relevant to why some people write these sorts of books and others don't. I appreciate folks like Cherie who have taken the time to research the fellowship, and for all who've provided their story as a resource for those who might be struggling. I especially appreciate folks who can write with minimal amount bashing and just relate their story. It sounds like perhaps Eliz has done this. But I haven't read the book yet--and I have a huge stack of unread books that will likely come first. It will be interesting to hear what Eliz has to say!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 5, 2015 17:55:20 GMT -5
Matisse - no. Faune - no. SharonArnold - no. Maja - no Redback - no, no, no, no, etc Blacksheep - not condemned Roselyn - NO ! Cherie - no
Elizabeth?
Anyone else?
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 5, 2015 17:57:32 GMT -5
Matisse - no. Faune - no. SharonArnold - no. Maja - no Redback - no, no, no, no, etc Blacksheep - not condemned Roselyn - NO ! Cherie - no Elizabeth? Anyone else? I don't seem to be on the list, but no I don't think folks in the 2x2s are going to hell (I hope that's the question I'm answering!)
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Post by SharonArnold on May 5, 2015 18:02:35 GMT -5
Before anyone tells me how wrong I am, please describe a time you openly stood up for something you believed was right in opposition to the workers and how it was received. If there was never a need in your life for such an action, let me know and I can give you some material to research and inquire about from the workers. I would love to know what answers you get and how your questions were received. Interestingly, as I reflect on this, there WERE a few of times where I did stand up for something that I believed was right in opposition to the workers. (Initially I thought I never did.) I am not going to relate the specifics, as I feel the details are too private and the workers involved certainly did not expect to read about it 25+ years later on an internet forum. One time in particular, ended up with me in tears, them almost in tears (they were guys, for pete’s sake). And an acknowledgement from them that they did not always know best, and an extreme effort to put things right. Yeah. I was young and stubborn. They were more than reasonable, and, these many years later, I salute and appreciate that. The part that still ticks me off (as evidenced by me striking the keys more firmly as I type this) is some of the “friends” who knew about the situation, judged me very harshly (AND started treating me differently) because, in their view, I should have simply accepted the situation “because the workers said so”. Definitely NOT the first or the last time (in my experience) where the workers were far wiser and kinder and much more accommodating than the self-appointed arbiters of proper behavior amongst the laity. Yeah. Who on here, amongst the exes, wants to acknowledge their role in situations like this? Other times resulted in a bit of a stand-off – with probably the worst time resulting in me being left off the meeting list when new arrangements were being made. I didn’t care, I was moving from that area within a month or so, and so I just stopped going to meeting for that time period. (But, MA, I noticed. It only made me think even less of you, if that was possible.) I sometimes question why, all these many years later, I still show up on a forum like this. I have some partial answers, some inklings. Among them are feelings of guilt and abdicated responsibility for all the times that absolutely asinine remarks were made at the breakfast/dinner table in MY house (both workers and laity), and I let them pass unchallenged. Manners or cowardice? (Probably a bit of both.) Or the times where I knew of injustice and wrongdoing, and stood by, and said nothing and did nothing. Nevertheless, I relish my freedom now, to say whatever I think. I don’t ever want to be unnecessarily unkind or hurtful, but I will say what I think and feel no matter how impolitic it is. Ahhhh. Freedom. Authenticity.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 5, 2015 18:04:58 GMT -5
I especially appreciate folks who can write with minimal amount bashing and just relate their story. It sounds like perhaps Eliz has done this. But I haven't read the book yet--and I have a huge stack of unread books that will likely come first. It will be interesting to hear what Eliz has to say! Minimal bashing at minimum would mean not using a word like "cult" in the title in a way that clearly implies there is no Christ in the cult. If there is no Christ how can there not be condemnation to hell?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 18:12:07 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. Jesse, there is no hell. Hell is merely an imaginary place created in the imagination as a result of being overexposed to certain religious belief systems. So need to concern yourself with such hypothetical questions. Instead rejoice in the fact that belief in hell can be overcome and satan banished from the garden. Matt10
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Post by Mary on May 5, 2015 18:12:37 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. We are not God so we can't condemn anyone to hell so no one is condemned to hell until judgement day. Only God knows our hearts but the workers have taken it on themselves to condemn those outside of their 115 year old fellowship as lost but it is nothing to do with the workers but all about Jesus. What i pick up is that nonbelivers are not a threat to those in the fellowship but other Christians. It's not so much of a problem if someone leaves meetings and stops believing in God, the enemy are those who leave and go to another church. Mainstream churches seem to be a problem to exclusive groups rather than those who do not attend churches. So Jessi the answer to your question is no.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 18:16:27 GMT -5
I'm always curious what are the personal motivations that cause people to write books on their negative spiritual or religious experiences? In this case, I mean. Whathat, what is it that personally motivates you to write here publicly and frequently on your spiritual and religious experiences? Matt10
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Post by xna on May 5, 2015 18:18:39 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. NO
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 5, 2015 18:22:31 GMT -5
I especially appreciate folks who can write with minimal amount bashing and just relate their story. It sounds like perhaps Eliz has done this. But I haven't read the book yet--and I have a huge stack of unread books that will likely come first. It will be interesting to hear what Eliz has to say! Minimal bashing at minimum would mean not using a word like "cult" in the title in a way that clearly implies there is no Christ in the cult. If there is no Christ how can there not be condemnation to hell? ------------------ (I messed up the html here somehow)--------- I didn't write the book; I haven't read the book; and I clearly stated earlier that I was put off by the 'cult' word. I said I appreciated books that had minimal bashing and hoped, based on Sharon's write up, that this one didn't. For many folks, leaving the fellowship has brought them to a deeper relationship with Christ. I assume by the title that Eliz meant she came to such a relationship after leaving....which wouldn't condemn those who stay who have such a relationship. However, I have NOT read the book, and when I get around to reading it, if it has too much negativity, I simply won't finish it. I might be shunned by the friends, but I have no need to be upset with them for that nor any need to return the favor by harboring any ill will towards the fellowship. And why not wait for Eliz to answer the question on condemnation rather than assume her answer? After all, my original posting had nothing to do with your question on condemnation.
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Post by Mary on May 5, 2015 18:24:36 GMT -5
People write books for the the same reason people write on this forum. To share their lives, experiences, journey, etc.
To keep quiet or speak out? Jesus spoke out. Don't hide your light ubder a bushel. The workers get up there and speak out but people are not allowed to speak through a book?
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 5, 2015 18:28:06 GMT -5
Hberry if what you say is true it would beg the question, why choose the title "Cult to Christ"?
Elizabeth's answers will be interesting.
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Post by withlove on May 5, 2015 18:39:52 GMT -5
I'd like to see straight answers to the question from the book's cheering section. I'm cheering it on, but haven't read it yet, so not sure if you want to hear from that group or not. But my answer in general would be no. I had a real (although limited and deluded) relationship with heaven while "in" and feel sure that manymany others around me did too. Whether they come out from the church or not, those diligent seekers are safe in God's hands, in my limited understanding. I'm not taking exclusive thinking with me...so I don't think the sheep have to leave the f&w to find a better group to be saved, although I think there must be more healthy options in other Christian churches.
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Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 18:46:32 GMT -5
Hberry if what you say is true it would beg the question, why choose the title "Cult to Christ"? Elizabeth's answers will be interesting. The purpose of a book title is to grab attention and get the book read. I think the title would do that quite well.
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Post by SharonArnold on May 5, 2015 18:50:17 GMT -5
Minimal bashing at minimum would mean not using a word like "cult" in the title in a way that clearly implies there is no Christ in the cult. If there is no Christ how can there not be condemnation to hell? I didn't write the book; I haven't read the book; and I clearly stated earlier that I was put off by the 'cult' word. I said I appreciated books that had minimal bashing and hoped, based on Sharon's write up, that this one didn't. For many folks, leaving the fellowship has brought them to a deeper relationship with Christ. I assume by the title that Eliz meant she came to such a relationship after leaving....which wouldn't condemn those who stay who have such a relationship. However, I have NOT read the book, and when I get around to reading it, if it has too much negativity, I simply won't finish it. I might be shunned by the friends, but I have no need to be upset with them for that nor any need to return the favor by harboring any ill will towards the fellowship. And why not wait for Eliz to answer the question on condemnation rather than assume her answer? After all, my original posting had nothing to do with your question on condemnation. I don't know that it would be quite right to infer that there is "minimal bashing" in this book. Indeed, anyone who is particularly focused on that aspect would find plenty of things that they could label in that way. My focus in reading was much more on shared experience. My conclusion that the book is worth reading should no way imply that I agree with the editorializing or the conclusions drawn. (I read a lot of stuff (in a lot of contexts) that I do not necessaily agree with - but I still think it is well worth reading.) This book has enough in it that is genuine, authentic, and generously shared. As I said before, I profoundly disagree with the use of the "cult" word. There may be a limited definition where this does apply, but to the average person these days, the word "cult" conjures up visions of Jim Jones and kool-aid. That is not helpful, nor what is intended - at least for any reasonable person who is not just rabble rousing. People using this term should be aware of this, and, IMO, should find other ways to express what they mean.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 18:59:16 GMT -5
Hberry if what you say is true it would beg the question, why choose the title "Cult to Christ"? Elizabeth's answers will be interesting. Jesse, you'll recall that meaningful debate on a previous book was prevented by those who (a) chose to focus entirely on the use of the word cult rather than discuss the actual contents of the book, (b) those who chose to focus on the author rather than what the author wrote and (c) those who clearly thought their contributions would be more valid if they commented prior to reading the book. You'll also recall that this ended in farce. Surely you're not going to encourage a repeat of the same futile approach? Matt10
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Post by withlove on May 5, 2015 19:09:54 GMT -5
I'm always curious what are the personal motivations that cause people to write books on their negative spiritual or religious experiences? In this case, I mean. I've wondered that myself--and I don't mean anything negative by my comment. I'm out of the fellowship and happily in another church, and I don't have any need to keep looking back. I appreciate what I learned, somewhat amazed at what I didn't realize I didn't know that came to matter deeply to me in my late 50's, but still content to have it be part of my life. I recognize that I might have made better decisions in a different environment, but that I can't say for certain. Hubby, however, is different. Although he is happy to be out, and likes the teaching and the fellowship at our new church, he can't get past the negativity of the past. I don't mean to imply that I'm any better than he is. I am a very future focused person, always looking forward with happy anticipation; hubby is a very sentimental person, always looking back. Therefore the hurts of the past don't go away for him, while I assume things will get better. They generally have, from my perspective, despite a few speed bumps. Hubby doesn't assume things will get better, and even when they do, he worries that it won't last. I'm just puzzled sometimes with hubby's inability to let go of what I think is unnecessary baggage. However, perhaps I've been too flippant in moving past the negativity and not learned enough from it. I don't know. And perhaps this sort of inner orientation is relevant to why some people write these sorts of books and others don't. I appreciate folks like Cherie who have taken the time to research the fellowship, and for all who've provided their story as a resource for those who might be struggling. I especially appreciate folks who can write with minimal amount bashing and just relate their story. It sounds like perhaps Eliz has done this. But I haven't read the book yet--and I have a huge stack of unread books that will likely come first. It will be interesting to hear what Eliz has to say! A person could write a book to get it all down onto paper and out of his head, so to speak...therapy. Or to organize all his thoughts and experiences and/or research for a more efficient answer to anyone who asks about what it was like or why he left or how he is affected. Or to help other people. I'm having a hard time myself wrestling with how I can just totally walk away without contributing something. Writing a book is a huge amount of work and can be draining if it is about the most light-hearted subject...I am so very grateful that some have forged ahead and done it for the benefit of others like myself. Thank you Elizabeth!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 5, 2015 19:10:00 GMT -5
Hey Matt10: How much of a thread like this, and book like this, and the book you mention, isn't ultimately a farce?
If 2x2s aren't condemned to hell what's the point?
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hberry
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Post by hberry on May 5, 2015 19:21:58 GMT -5
Hberry if what you say is true it would beg the question, why choose the title "Cult to Christ"? Elizabeth's answers will be interesting. My experience with the world 'cult' is different than yours, I'm sure. I've met a variety of pastors in the last few years, and whenever I clarified that the group I was in did not (or as far as I knew, did not) believe in the traditional trinity, they all said 'oh, you are in a cult.' Their references was theological, and I wasn't insulted, and they weren't being insulting. It was a label they used for 'non-orthodox' beliefs. A few of them indicated they hoped I'd search the scriptures for myself, but no one gasped and said 'oh you aren't saved!' What they were thinking, I don't know, and some might have believed that. I know some do. However, my point is, 'cult' doesn't bother me personally except that I know the term riles people up and therefore I see it as divisive rather than helpful. Sharon has indicated that there was more editorializing than I had originally gathered from her write up, so I was mistaken there. I have not read the book and cannot speak to why she chose the title--but I would imagine an author picks a title he/she thinks will catch the public's eye.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 19:28:28 GMT -5
Hey Matt10: How much of a thread like this about a book like this, and the book you mention, isn't ultimately a farce? If 2x2s aren't condemned to hell what's the point? Jesse, I've already responded to your 'hell' point. And rather unambiguously at that. If you have informed comments on the contents of the book, I'd be delighted to hear them. Your comments on the contents of the book are as valid as any others. Matt10
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 5, 2015 19:48:54 GMT -5
Matisse - no. Faune - no. SharonArnold - no. Maja - no Redback - no, no, no, no, etc Blacksheep - not condemned Roselyn - NO ! Cherie - no hberry - no Matt10 - there is no hell Mary - no xna - no withlove - no
Elizabeth?
Anyone else?
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Post by findingtruth on May 5, 2015 20:30:42 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. No.
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Post by SharonArnold on May 5, 2015 20:42:24 GMT -5
Matisse - no. Faune - no. SharonArnold - no. Maja - no Redback - no, no, no, no, etc Blacksheep - not condemned Roselyn - NO ! Cherie - no hberry - no Matt10 - there is no hell Mary - no xna - no withlove - no Elizabeth? Anyone else? I actually think the qualifiers here would be far more interesting than the "no" responses. It is probably pretty clear at this stage that all the responses are going to be "no". Certainly some of the qualifiers would probably be (like Matt10's) - "There is no hell". The one I anticipate (with a weird sense of humor) is "Look at the thief on the cross." I'm not sure what you are looking for, but I am also not sure that the "no" responses really mean anything.
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Post by findingtruth on May 5, 2015 20:46:20 GMT -5
So are we 2x2's condemned to hell? Answer with a yes or no. Jesse, I have four questions for you. Keep your answers simple please. 1) What prompted you to ask this question? 2) Are those who are referred to as "exe-2x2s" condemned to hell in your opinion? 3) Are those who no longer affiliate with any religious group condemned to hell in your opinion? 4) Are those who do not believe in a god condemned to hell in your opinion?
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Post by faune on May 5, 2015 21:02:40 GMT -5
I'm always curious what are the personal motivations that cause people to write books on their negative spiritual or religious experiences? In this case, I mean. I've wondered that myself--and I don't mean anything negative by my comment. I'm out of the fellowship and happily in another church, and I don't have any need to keep looking back. I appreciate what I learned, somewhat amazed at what I didn't realize I didn't know that came to matter deeply to me in my late 50's, but still content to have it be part of my life. I recognize that I might have made better decisions in a different environment, but that I can't say for certain. Hubby, however, is different. Although he is happy to be out, and likes the teaching and the fellowship at our new church, he can't get past the negativity of the past. I don't mean to imply that I'm any better than he is. I am a very future focused person, always looking forward with happy anticipation; hubby is a very sentimental person, always looking back. Therefore the hurts of the past don't go away for him, while I assume things will get better. They generally have, from my perspective, despite a few speed bumps. Hubby doesn't assume things will get better, and even when they do, he worries that it won't last. I'm just puzzled sometimes with hubby's inability to let go of what I think is unnecessary baggage. However, perhaps I've been too flippant in moving past the negativity and not learned enough from it. I don't know. And perhaps this sort of inner orientation is relevant to why some people write these sorts of books and others don't. I appreciate folks like Cherie who have taken the time to research the fellowship, and for all who've provided their story as a resource for those who might be struggling. I especially appreciate folks who can write with minimal amount bashing and just relate their story. It sounds like perhaps Eliz has done this. But I haven't read the book yet--and I have a huge stack of unread books that will likely come first. It will be interesting to hear what Eliz has to say! Hberry ~ I feel people write books relating to their experience for a number of different reasons. Perhaps the reason for some ex-members writing books might be similar to "writing an Exit Letter" some time after leaving a group when your emotions have settled and you want to share your story with others that it might help. It's more like a catharsis in that respect, I would guess? Although I have been out of the 2x2's for over 20 years now and have moved on in my spiritual journey, I do realize that my sojourn among the F&W's may have met a particular need in my life early on, which accounted for me staying so long, even when I felt very uncomfortable during my last five (5) years of holding on to something I had lost respect for in the end due to the deceit and hypocrisy I had witnessed for years.
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