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Post by dmmichgood on May 18, 2015 15:02:50 GMT -5
Appreciate the double /triple /quadruple coverage that my posts are now attracting, some kindly reposting them. I guess you could almost say I am getting a 'cult following'. Fancy Ross and whyisitso are part of a new cult. Wait till their fa..... find out! ? gmc oops I mean dmg ;fancy you at your age allowing yourself to get caught up in some new fangled cult. Where is the gray Irishman or Coleman? It may well be something they could write their next book on.
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 15:07:18 GMT -5
Here's what a cult is like: Resembles 2x2 separations. Not in my experience. I would strongly oppose a spouse being forbidden from opening the door to his/her loved one or seeing the children. That is definitely cult-like behaviour.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 18, 2015 15:08:26 GMT -5
Withlove : Why did you choose a poster name that is the antithesis of your posts?
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Post by withlove on May 18, 2015 15:08:29 GMT -5
I don't think Jesus is the only one who should call out false prophets or problems in the temple, etc. Paul didn't think so either. At some point there is a decision to be made--will there be more hurt cause by exposing or hiding? Maybe I will stop using the c word in the presence of believers so that I don't hurt their feelings. I have heard from cult experts that it doesn't help to use that kind of language with someone who is in. I'm surprisingly nice and not into tough love. However my feeling is that people who might be researching the friends before they join should be aware of the things that the friends don't like to hear but are true. Can you see my dilemma? I can see your dilemma. I know how good it feels to judge others thinking we are so much better, "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are". That's an all too common human failure. And it is a failure. I think the safest thing to do is not judge, follow what Jesus said about offending others, and live the two commandments he left. Neither commandment includes calling others a cult, their teaching absolute heresy, and stating that because of the heresy they have nothing. God will judge - we are not God. Love 'em all and let God sort 'em, out. No, you don't see my dilemma. It is difficult for me to express it I guess. I was there. I care about myself. I care about my friends. I care about my family. I care about the friends and workers I've loved. I care about the ones I never met but heard their heartfelt prayers and testimonies. I care about the sheep everywhere. The friends are my family...someone the other day said tribe (was it fixit)? Most posters have been part of it. I can understand how you see me as an enemy...I used to think that about people who spoke out too. And maybe people have different approaches and motivations...I can only speak for my own.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 18, 2015 15:09:19 GMT -5
professing.proboards.com/thread/22909/percy-watkins-funeral-notes?page=25This is where it all started - with the "dear father" post. But as indicated in the link you've deleted your post just as you deleted the post where you stated that I posted that my Dad died in a cult. And of course the post where you stated that my family members are in a cult is there for all to see. But you are not man enough to withdraw them. Instead you lie and deny that you ever posted them - a lie that remains on this Board. As you know the issue is not whether I've stated that the 2x2 church exhibits cult-like behaviour. Of course I've stated that and I've given examples. Why would I want to deny that? Why would I be worried if my family members read my posts - I post under the name of Ross Bowden - I don't have to live a double life. My family would be horrified at your deceitful behaviour of stating that I have posted something which I haven't. I'll tell them it's a worker and who it is. I'm sure my mother would be delighted that a senior worker has fraudulently posted that her son wrote that her husband died in a cult. Given the relationship I have with my Mum I know who she will believe and it won't be you. Likewise, my family members will be delighted that a senior worker has fraudulently posted that their brother has written that they are members of a cult. I know who they will believe and it won't be you. Likewise, your boss I'm sure will be delighted that you have fraudulently stated that I said something I didn't say. I'm sure he'll also be interested in how you target people and their families - not just ex-members but current members in some cases. I'm sure he would be delighted with what you call people - a list of which was compiled previously by myself and Dmmg. Ross. For someone who said the next communication with me would be off-line you are doing well for yourself online yet! It must 6-8 posts at least since then. Your accusation regarding a posting I deleted with mention of your father in it is just another of the false, baseless statement that I reject outright. You exercised your freedom of speech and made 'cult like behaviour ,etc statements' in your posts about the church.... The church your family still belong to and the one in which your dear father lived and died. You then have the audacity to frame an allegation that I am targeting your family! I was simply seeking to awaking you to the reality; the full implication of the posts you thoughtlessly and carelessly made. Your comment about my boss is noted. That tactic is known as coercion. I don't bow to your threats, your coercion, your attempt to shame or insult me nor I am troubled by the false baseless your multiple allegations which are baseless and without truth or substance. Your problem is this....You have no compunction is speaking about the church using the word cult/cult like behaviour. You are quite happy as long as your baseless insult using the 'cult' word is aimed at a general audience of whoever may read on this forum of friends and workers. You then 'squeal like a stuck pig' and make false accusations when you are reminded that the church you are giving cult labels to is also the church of your family....not just the general audience you so lightly thought you were casting it at. Quit yourself like a man and 'suck up' the quagmire you have got yourself into with your own foolish postings. Understanding you have reaped according to your sowing.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 18, 2015 15:13:16 GMT -5
Message boards create a dynamic very different from a one-on-one conversation...I wouldn't be throwing the word cult around when addressing an individual. Lots of touchy subjects and terms come up here, which is healthy. I don't think it's healthy to post things on a message board you would not say in person. Watch: When someone posts things they would never say in person the subsequent conversations nearly always prove it's not a healthy thing to do. A good rule is to never write anything you would not say face to face. Seems hypocritical and dishonest to post things here you would never say face to face.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 18, 2015 15:20:22 GMT -5
No, you don't see my dilemma. It is difficult for me to express it I guess. I was there. I care about myself. I care about my friends. I care about my family. I care about the friends and workers I've loved. I care about the ones I never met but heard their heartfelt prayers and testimonies. I care about the sheep everywhere. The friends are my family...someone the other day said tribe (was it fixit)? Most posters have been part of it. I can understand how you see me as an enemy...I used to think that about people who spoke out too. And maybe people have different approaches and motivations...I can only speak for my own. Rest assured I don't see you as an enemy. I don't look at anyone that way. Like snow said, if there can be salvation in the fellowship what is the problem? 99% of friends and workers I know are happy and satisfied. Do you want all of us to leave? If we are happy and satisfied and not condemned to hell why should we leave?
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Post by withlove on May 18, 2015 15:23:59 GMT -5
Message boards create a dynamic very different from a one-on-one conversation...I wouldn't be throwing the word cult around when addressing an individual. Lots of touchy subjects and terms come up here, which is healthy. I don't think it's healthy to post things on a message board you would not say in person. Watch: When someone posts things they would never say in person the subsequent conversations nearly always prove it's not a healthy thing to do. A good rule is to never write anything you would not say face to face. Seems hypocritical and dishonest to post things here you would never say face to face. Good point. I wouldn't say to someone in person that he is in a cult. However I would say to someone in person who doesn't know about the group that it is a cult. Anything I say here other than that one word I think I would say in person, or already have. It can be easier for some people to write their thoughts rather than speak them, and there is a level of safety in writing here that wouldn't always be present when speaking to a group of people in person.
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Post by withlove on May 18, 2015 15:32:30 GMT -5
No, you don't see my dilemma. It is difficult for me to express it I guess. I was there. I care about myself. I care about my friends. I care about my family. I care about the friends and workers I've loved. I care about the ones I never met but heard their heartfelt prayers and testimonies. I care about the sheep everywhere. The friends are my family...someone the other day said tribe (was it fixit)? Most posters have been part of it. I can understand how you see me as an enemy...I used to think that about people who spoke out too. And maybe people have different approaches and motivations...I can only speak for my own. Rest assured I don't see you as an enemy. I don't look at anyone that way. Like snow said, if there can be salvation in the fellowship what is the problem? 99% of friends and workers I know are happy and satisfied. Do you want all of us to leave? If we are happy and satisfied and not condemned to hell why should we leave? The behavior, information, thought and emotion control are the problems. That might not sum all the problems up...you can read about them all over this site. I would like to see things fixed, made transparent, corrected. I'm not trying to talk you or any other friend into leaving. If you are aware of the issues and can make informed choices with no undue influence placed on you, that's healthy and good.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 18, 2015 17:03:50 GMT -5
Appreciate the double /triple /quadruple coverage that my posts are now attracting, some kindly reposting them. I guess you could almost say I am getting a 'cult following'. Fancy Ross and whyisitso are part of a new cult. Wait till their fa..... find out! ? gmc oops I mean dmg ;fancy you at your age allowing yourself to get caught up in some new fangled cult. Where is the gray Irishman or Coleman? It may well be something they could write their next book on. Ross, please give up. You are fighting a loosing battle. It is becoming annoying, we should all get back to the thread, " Cult to Christ", Elizabeth's book.
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Post by snow on May 18, 2015 17:25:46 GMT -5
I know you probably don't see it the way I do, but if you don't see people with different doctrine as 'not going to hell', then is it really necessary to change their beliefs by going to the lengths of using the word 'cult'? That's what I have not been understanding about this whole conversation really. Jesse outright asked everyone if he was going to hell for believing what he believes and everyone said 'no'. So why is it necessary to change his belief at all if hell is not a threat? That is what I don't understand about all this. If they are happy in their church believing what they believe and there is no threat to their final destination being heaven, then why is it necessary to call what they believe cult like behaviors or outright 'cult'? I could understand why Christians might believe all other religions are 'lost' and going to hell, but denominations within Christianity still follow the Christian God and Jesus and worship them or at least feel they are divine. Anyway, it's not for me to understand. I understand what you mean. Yeah, it's not about theology for me with the friends (that is subject to change, I suppose, as I learn more of other forms of Christianity). I am concerned about the behavior, information, thinking and emotion control (which are present in non-religious cults). I wouldn't try to hound any one person about seeing the issues but this is a message board where the information should be freely presented. I don't think the denomination is without God. If the bad parts can be fixed, that's great. Yes there are issues that do need to be fixed. I think everyone agrees with that. Probably no denomination can say they are without issues that need to be fixed. I think the most important thing religion was and is trying to teach us is to love one another and be compassionate. I guess where humanity sometimes gets into trouble and off track is all the variations in the definition of what it means to show love.
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Post by snow on May 18, 2015 17:30:59 GMT -5
Resembles 2x2 separations. Not in my experience. I would strongly oppose a spouse being forbidden from opening the door to his/her loved one or seeing the children. That is definitely cult-like behaviour. And it's something that so called orthodox Christians sometimes do to spouses who declare they are atheists. If this video is supposed to be an example of cult like behavior then they too are guilty of this behavior with atheist spouses.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 18, 2015 20:38:53 GMT -5
This is really twisting things up.
If anyone who had family still in refrained from posting their views...there probably wouldn't be a message board. Ross can say how he feels about theology without it being a direct personal insult to any person, related or not.
He did say "if" twice. I take it to mean that there are teachings that could be corrected to make the word cult not apply. I said similar things myself while I was still in, although not about trinity and divinity. It's twisting nothing. Read the words in context. Ross is NOT using "if" in the sense of may or may not - he flatly states he holds the strong view 2x2 teaching on Jesus is "absolute" heresy, no "if" about it whatsoever. Then "if" [meaning "since it is"] heresy the 2x2s "deserve the nomenclature of a sect or cult", no doubt about that either. If [since it is] not getting core doctrine right, they have nothing. There is no twisting out of what the post actually says.
I hold the strong view that 2x2 teaching on Jesus is heresy and increasingly becoming so. It is not that they just refute Jesus as God (which is heresy in itself) but they bring Jesus down even further by (over) emphasising His humanity at the expense of His divinity. While there is an element of truth in this (like there is in most heresies) when you look at it in the overall sense of who Christ is, it is absolute heresy. If they teach this about Jesus they deserve the nomenclature of a sect or cult. I prefer the former. The single biggest improvement that the F&W fellowship could make is what they teach - if you can't get it right on core Christian doctrine - you have nothing. Jesse you are picking out words to justify your view ! Again read what Ross said !
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Post by Roselyn T on May 18, 2015 20:40:21 GMT -5
Appreciate the double /triple /quadruple coverage that my posts are now attracting, some kindly reposting them. I guess you could almost say I am getting a 'cult following'. Fancy Ross and whyisitso are part of a new cult. Wait till their fa..... find out! ? gmc oops I mean dmg ;fancy you at your age allowing yourself to get caught up in some new fangled cult. Where is the gray Irishman or Coleman? It may well be something they could write their next book on. You better add me as well, Ross !
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Post by Roselyn T on May 18, 2015 20:44:27 GMT -5
I never use the word cult to hurt people--the opposite. I deeply feel for people in and people who might consider joining. I use it because I think it is a helpful label. Message boards create a dynamic very different from a one-on-one conversation...I wouldn't be throwing the word cult around when addressing an individual. Lots of touchy subjects and terms come up here, which is healthy. Jesus said lots of things that offended people, and he didn't sin in that. He had to say those things for their benefit and for the benefit of others. He loved their souls. We can take saving peoples' feelings too far when we withdraw important criticism. The petty insults are needless and unkind, of course. Jesus spoke the truth and there were people offended by his words. How can you possibly compare that to offending people by speaking against truth, calling the way established by Jesus on earth a cult? That is not "rightly dividing the word of truth". And I'm saying that for your benefit, not to offend you in any way. Felicity where is the record from Jesus to the workers to back-up your statement "How can you possibly compare that to offending people by speaking against truth, calling the way established by Jesus on earth a cult". Of course you will have no answer because there is no record !
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Post by Roselyn T on May 18, 2015 20:46:32 GMT -5
I never use the word cult to hurt people--the opposite. I deeply feel for people in and people who might consider joining. I use it because I think it is a helpful label. Message boards create a dynamic very different from a one-on-one conversation...I wouldn't be throwing the word cult around when addressing an individual. Lots of touchy subjects and terms come up here, which is healthy. Jesus said lots of things that offended people, and he didn't sin in that. He had to say those things for their benefit and for the benefit of others. He loved their souls. We can take saving peoples' feelings too far when we withdraw important criticism. The petty insults are needless and unkind, of course. We are NOT Jesus. So you use the word cult withlove? How nice. It doesn't matter though. If in so doing you cause others to be offended, you are the person Jesus is talking about; "but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" It doesn't matter if you intended to offend or not. If what you want to say might cause someone to be offended - don't say it. If your hand might cause you to offend someone - don't type. If what your eyes see might cause you to offend someone - stop looking. That is how to really live the two commandments Jesus left. But its ok for F&W to offend other people by saying they belong to a false church ! Talk about a double standard !
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Post by Roselyn T on May 18, 2015 20:53:02 GMT -5
No, you don't see my dilemma. It is difficult for me to express it I guess. I was there. I care about myself. I care about my friends. I care about my family. I care about the friends and workers I've loved. I care about the ones I never met but heard their heartfelt prayers and testimonies. I care about the sheep everywhere. The friends are my family...someone the other day said tribe (was it fixit)? Most posters have been part of it. I can understand how you see me as an enemy...I used to think that about people who spoke out too. And maybe people have different approaches and motivations...I can only speak for my own. Rest assured I don't see you as an enemy. I don't look at anyone that way. Like snow said, if there can be salvation in the fellowship what is the problem? 99% of friends and workers I know are happy and satisfied. Do you want all of us to leave? If we are happy and satisfied and not condemned to hell why should we leave? 99% happy wow Jesse where do you live !!!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on May 18, 2015 21:53:28 GMT -5
I wonder if fa..... is "fathers" or "families". If it's fathers then it's pretty insensitive. And this isn't insensitive? I hold the strong view that 2x2 teaching on Jesus is heresy and increasingly becoming so. It is not that they just refute Jesus as God (which is heresy in itself) but they bring Jesus down even further by (over) emphasising His humanity at the expense of His divinity. While there is an element of truth in this (like there is in most heresies) when you look at it in the overall sense of who Christ is, it is absolute heresy. If they teach this about Jesus they deserve the nomenclature of a sect or cult. I prefer the former. The single biggest improvement that the F&W fellowship could make is what they teach - if you can't get it right on core Christian doctrine - you have nothing.
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 21:54:44 GMT -5
My purpose in posting is to point out errors in 2x2 teaching compared to what God says in the Bible. This year alone I have been contacted by 7 folk who either are professing or young adults not yet professing with questions about why workers teach particular things which do not accord with Scripture. They need to be encouraged to link into an Christian environment where they can ask whatever questions they want to and explore the Bible and Christian teaching and discipleship. There are some wonderful churches and ministers around where they can do this and I am happy to link them up. This was our experience in the process of leaving and it has been amazing. There are many others (including a number on this Board) who have experienced this blessing. You should put your efforts into aligning your Anglican/Episcopal Church with what God says in the Bible.
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 22:29:34 GMT -5
You should put your efforts into aligning your Anglican/Episcopal Church with what God says in the Bible. Thanks for the advice but I can't do much about a world-wide Anglican church that I'm not an official member of. Any more or less that you can change the 2x2 world-wide church. So I'll stick to my local neck of the woods and help my neighbours, in the broadest definition of the word, know about Jesus and help them where I can. That includes my work colleagues, those I come into contact with anywhere and anyone who wants to contact me from the 2x2's. As you know Christianity is not about organisations but about people and people's hearts and lives being changed. You're teaching one particular interpretation of "what God says in the Bible", while at the same time condemning other interpretations.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 18, 2015 23:33:11 GMT -5
That isn't the point, Maryhig. It isn't about who is, or isn't, a Jew.
It is that piece of OT scripture has nothing to do with any prophecy concerning Jesus. It was a prophecy about the Jewish people, not Jesus. "After his death, the promoters of Christianity retroactively looked into the Bible and “applied” – through mistranslation and distortion of context – these biblical verses as referring to Jesus."
I believe it is about the prophecy of Jesus. Its just the messiah didn't come as the Jewish leaders expected him too! They expected him to come as a leader in their religion. And to free them from their enemies (I.e the Romans). But he came as a suffering servant of the people, giving everyone a chance including the gentiles. Suffering and denying Satan in his flesh, taking all that people and authorities threw at him and showed them love. Showing them all how to remove their enemies from within their hearts through self denial. Thus separating them from Satan! This is how Jesus suffered, and came to save the Jews from their enemies.Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours. What we expect to happen may not be the way God has planned it! Jesus is the messiah, he is the son of God! Messiah definition the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible. He is the deliverer, and if we follow him, he will deliver all of us, out of the hand of Satan, and into the hand of God! By helping us overcome Satan in our hearts by circumcision of the heart! Because those circumsised of the heart are the Jewish nation! Except that Jesus did NOT save the Jews from their enemies.
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Post by maryhig on May 18, 2015 23:51:33 GMT -5
I believe it is about the prophecy of Jesus. Its just the messiah didn't come as the Jewish leaders expected him too! They expected him to come as a leader in their religion. And to free them from their enemies (I.e the Romans). But he came as a suffering servant of the people, giving everyone a chance including the gentiles. Suffering and denying Satan in his flesh, taking all that people and authorities threw at him and showed them love. Showing them all how to remove their enemies from within their hearts through self denial. Thus separating them from Satan! This is how Jesus suffered, and came to save the Jews from their enemies.Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours. What we expect to happen may not be the way God has planned it! Jesus is the messiah, he is the son of God! Messiah definition the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible. He is the deliverer, and if we follow him, he will deliver all of us, out of the hand of Satan, and into the hand of God! By helping us overcome Satan in our hearts by circumcision of the heart! Because those circumsised of the heart are the Jewish nation! Except that Jesus did NOT save the Jews from their enemies.
He's saving me!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 19, 2015 0:00:25 GMT -5
That isn't the point, Maryhig. It isn't about who is, or isn't, a Jew.
It is that piece of OT scripture has nothing to do with any prophecy concerning Jesus. It was a prophecy about the Jewish people, not Jesus. "After his death, the promoters of Christianity retroactively looked into the Bible and “applied” – through mistranslation and distortion of context – these biblical verses as referring to Jesus."
I believe it is about the prophecy of Jesus. Its just the messiah didn't come as the Jewish leaders expected him too! They expected him to come as a leader in their religion. And to free them from their enemies (I.e the Romans). But he came as a suffering servant of the people, giving everyone a chance including the gentiles. Suffering and denying Satan in his flesh, taking all that people and authorities threw at him and showed them love. Showing them all how to remove their enemies from within their hearts through self denial. Thus separating them from Satan! This is how Jesus suffered, and came to save the Jews from their enemies. Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours. What we expect to happen may not be the way God has planned it! Jesus is the messiah, he is the son of God! Messiah definition the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible. He is the deliverer, and if we follow him, he will deliver all of us, out of the hand of Satan, and into the hand of God! By helping us overcome Satan in our hearts by circumcision of the heart! Because those circumsised of the heart are the Jewish nation!That "Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours." That statement: "Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours." is usually given by Christians when all other "reasons" fail. It seems to be their last resort.
However, it isn't any reason at all. Simply Illogical By Ben Love ~ "The first and most basic reality we must observe is that Christianity simply doesn’t make any sense. It is, to put it bluntly, absolutely illogical.
This is in fact so obvious that it really shouldn’t even need to be stated. The Christian, however, may disagree.
But if by some chance he does agrees that his religion is in fact illogical, then he will also assert that God intended it to be so.
He will likely smile and say something like this: “Yes, that’s true. It doesn’t make sense to man’s wisdom. But man’s wisdom is foolishness to God, and the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.”
However, we can recognize this for what it is: purposefully ambiguous jargon designed to allow the Christian to “be right” even when he is proven wrong.
In any case, even if we were to concede that an Omni-Creator-Being (or God) would orient his revealed religion in such a way, we would also have to accept that this God intentionally oriented this religion to exclude most of his creations from embracing it.
After all, there is an extremely large segment of the human population that relies heavily on logic, reason, and rationalism.
For a God to deliberately establish a “path” that forces humans to abandon logic, reason, and rationalism is to make it extremely difficult for many if not most of his creations to reach him, a counterproductive and therefore decidedly unwise move on his part if he really does want everyone to be saved.
Either way, if the Christian does indeed answer by asserting that “God’s wisdom is foolishness to man,” he is still acknowledging the main point: Christianity is illogical.
To assume that “God wants it to be that way” is circular reasoning. In fact, it’s not even circular reasoning. It’s doublespeak.
What the Christian is actually saying is this: “God’s ways don’t make any sense because the ways of God don‘t make sense.” In other words, the Christian is willing to accept that the very religion to which he is adhering is illogical because God, whom he wouldn’t believe in without the theology of that same religion, is also illogical. The intelligent human ought to instantly see the problem here. exchristian.net.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 19, 2015 0:14:52 GMT -5
Appreciate the double /triple /quadruple coverage that my posts are now attracting, some kindly reposting them. I guess you could almost say I am getting a 'cult following'. Fancy Ross and whyisitso are part of a new cult. Wait till their fa..... find out! ? gmc oops I mean dmg ;fancy you at your age allowing yourself to get caught up in some new fangled cult. Where is the gray Irishman or Coleman? It may well be something they could write their next book on. I'm aware this wasn't a legitimate mistake, but I have no idea who or what the gmc you are referring to means, in "gmc oops I mean dmg "
Care to enlighten me?
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 0:21:51 GMT -5
I believe it is about the prophecy of Jesus. Its just the messiah didn't come as the Jewish leaders expected him too! They expected him to come as a leader in their religion. And to free them from their enemies (I.e the Romans). But he came as a suffering servant of the people, giving everyone a chance including the gentiles. Suffering and denying Satan in his flesh, taking all that people and authorities threw at him and showed them love. Showing them all how to remove their enemies from within their hearts through self denial. Thus separating them from Satan! This is how Jesus suffered, and came to save the Jews from their enemies. Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours. What we expect to happen may not be the way God has planned it! Jesus is the messiah, he is the son of God! Messiah definition the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible. He is the deliverer, and if we follow him, he will deliver all of us, out of the hand of Satan, and into the hand of God! By helping us overcome Satan in our hearts by circumcision of the heart! Because those circumsised of the heart are the Jewish nation!That "Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours." That statement: "Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours." is usually given by Christians when all other "reasons" fail. It seems to be their last resort.
However, it isn't any reason at all. Simply Illogical By Ben Love ~ "The first and most basic reality we must observe is that Christianity simply doesn’t make any sense. It is, to put it bluntly, absolutely illogical.
This is in fact so obvious that it really shouldn’t even need to be stated. The Christian, however, may disagree.
But if by some chance he does agrees that his religion is in fact illogical, then he will also assert that God intended it to be so.
He will likely smile and say something like this: “Yes, that’s true. It doesn’t make sense to man’s wisdom. But man’s wisdom is foolishness to God, and the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.”
However, we can recognize this for what it is: purposefully ambiguous jargon designed to allow the Christian to “be right” even when he is proven wrong.
In any case, even if we were to concede that an Omni-Creator-Being (or God) would orient his revealed religion in such a way, we would also have to accept that this God intentionally oriented this religion to exclude most of his creations from embracing it.
After all, there is an extremely large segment of the human population that relies heavily on logic, reason, and rationalism.
For a God to deliberately establish a “path” that forces humans to abandon logic, reason, and rationalism is to make it extremely difficult for many if not most of his creations to reach him, a counterproductive and therefore decidedly unwise move on his part if he really does want everyone to be saved.
Either way, if the Christian does indeed answer by asserting that “God’s wisdom is foolishness to man,” he is still acknowledging the main point: Christianity is illogical.
To assume that “God wants it to be that way” is circular reasoning. In fact, it’s not even circular reasoning. It’s doublespeak.
What the Christian is actually saying is this: “God’s ways don’t make any sense because the ways of God don‘t make sense.” In other words, the Christian is willing to accept that the very religion to which he is adhering is illogical because God, whom he wouldn’t believe in without the theology of that same religion, is also illogical. The intelligent human ought to instantly see the problem here. exchristian.net.
I don't care what ben love says, or bens "logical thinking" he's not God. I've experienced Gods love in my heart from his spirit through Christ. Christ has taught me and has sent the holy spirit to teach me to listen to my conscience thus if I do this, he is saving me from Satan daily. But I must endure to the end! The more I'm listening, the stronger I'm getting in God. And the more he's helping me to fight sin within me! I don't listen to philosophy, or science or anything else worldly to try and explain God or the bible or anything to do with anything in the bible. I don't need to, I have a living heavenly father to go to. In whom I have completed faith!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 19, 2015 0:53:10 GMT -5
That statement: "Gods ways are different to man's ways! His mind is different to ours." is usually given by Christians when all other "reasons" fail. It seems to be their last resort.
However, it isn't any reason at all. Simply Illogical By Ben Love ~ "The first and most basic reality we must observe is that Christianity simply doesn’t make any sense. It is, to put it bluntly, absolutely illogical.
This is in fact so obvious that it really shouldn’t even need to be stated. The Christian, however, may disagree.
But if by some chance he does agrees that his religion is in fact illogical, then he will also assert that God intended it to be so.
He will likely smile and say something like this: “Yes, that’s true. It doesn’t make sense to man’s wisdom. But man’s wisdom is foolishness to God, and the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.”
However, we can recognize this for what it is: purposefully ambiguous jargon designed to allow the Christian to “be right” even when he is proven wrong.
In any case, even if we were to concede that an Omni-Creator-Being (or God) would orient his revealed religion in such a way, we would also have to accept that this God intentionally oriented this religion to exclude most of his creations from embracing it.
After all, there is an extremely large segment of the human population that relies heavily on logic, reason, and rationalism.
For a God to deliberately establish a “path” that forces humans to abandon logic, reason, and rationalism is to make it extremely difficult for many if not most of his creations to reach him, a counterproductive and therefore decidedly unwise move on his part if he really does want everyone to be saved.
Either way, if the Christian does indeed answer by asserting that “God’s wisdom is foolishness to man,” he is still acknowledging the main point: Christianity is illogical.
To assume that “God wants it to be that way” is circular reasoning. In fact, it’s not even circular reasoning. It’s doublespeak.
What the Christian is actually saying is this: “God’s ways don’t make any sense because the ways of God don‘t make sense.” In other words, the Christian is willing to accept that the very religion to which he is adhering is illogical because God, whom he wouldn’t believe in without the theology of that same religion, is also illogical. The intelligent human ought to instantly see the problem here. exchristian.net.
I don't care what ben love says, or bens "logical thinking" he's not God. I've experienced Gods love in my heart from his spirit through Christ. Christ has taught me and has sent the holy spirit to teach me to listen to my conscience thus if I do this, he is saving me from Satan daily. But I must endure to the end! The more I'm listening, the stronger I'm getting in God. And the more he's helping me to fight sin within me! I don't listen to philosophy, or science or anything else worldly to try and explain God or the bible or anything to do with anything in the bible. I don't need to, I have a living heavenly father to go to. In whom I have completed faith! Oh, Ben Love's article "Simply Illogical" wasn't about "philosophy, or science" or anything "worldly" either, -it was definitely about Christianity.
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Post by maryhig on May 19, 2015 0:54:03 GMT -5
I don't care what ben love says, or bens "logical thinking" he's not God. I've experienced Gods love in my heart from his spirit through Christ. Christ has taught me and has sent the holy spirit to teach me to listen to my conscience thus if I do this, he is saving me from Satan daily. But I must endure to the end! The more I'm listening, the stronger I'm getting in God. And the more he's helping me to fight sin within me! I don't listen to philosophy, or science or anything else worldly to try and explain God or the bible or anything to do with anything in the bible. I don't need to, I have a living heavenly father to go to. In whom I have completed faith! I don't care what ben love says, or bens "logical thinking" he's not God. I've experienced Gods love in my heart from his spirit through Christ. Christ has taught me and has sent the holy spirit to teach me to listen to my conscience thus if I do this, he is saving me from Satan daily. But I must endure to the end! The more I'm listening, the stronger I'm getting in God. And the more he's helping me to fight sin within me! I don't listen to philosophy, or science or anything else worldly to try and explain God or the bible or anything to do with anything in the bible. I don't need to, I have a living heavenly father to go to. In whom I have completed faith! I don't care what ben love says, or bens "logical thinking" he's not God. I've experienced Gods love in my heart from his spirit through Christ. Christ has taught me and has sent the holy spirit to teach me to listen to my conscience thus if I do this, he is saving me from Satan daily. But I must endure to the end! The more I'm listening, the stronger I'm getting in God. And the more he's helping me to fight sin within me! I don't listen to philosophy, or science or anything else worldly to try and explain God or the bible or anything to do with anything in the bible. I don't need to, I have a living heavenly father to go to. In whom I have completed faith! Oh, Ben Love's article "Simply Illogical" wasn't about "philosophy, or science" or anything "worldly" either, -it was definitely about Christianity.
And he doesn't know what he's talking about!
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Post by dmmichgood on May 19, 2015 1:00:18 GMT -5
Oh, Ben Love's article "Simply Illogical" wasn't about "philosophy, or science" or anything "worldly" either, -it was definitely about Christianity.
And he doesn't know what he's talking about! Well, I suppose that is a matter of opinion.
He certainly has a large number of people who agrees with him.
In fact as he says an "extremely large segment of the human population that relies heavily on logic, reason, and rationalism. "
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