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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 4:13:50 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 11:19 Paul wrote: "For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise." does this apply to folks on this forum as well as folks in the Fellowship? what do you think? Are'nt we all guilty of this given that we are not perfect? Just some thoughts going through my mind as I peruse threads on the forum; well I am not so wise myself so perhaps I can be excused.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 24, 2015 7:47:32 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 11:19 Paul wrote: "For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise." does this apply to folks on this forum as well as folks in the Fellowship? what do you think? Are'nt we all guilty of this given that we are not perfect? Just some thoughts going through my mind as I peruse threads on the forum; well I am not so wise myself so perhaps I can be excused. I dont see myself as wise by any long shot. I am told im a sucker for a hard luck story. If I come across as a fool or foolish would you tell me? People can be made to look and feel foolish by others who intimidate them. No we are not perfect. Is anyone claiming that? I havent seen anyone say they are wise so not sure what you are referring too. Or do you perceive someone is. Wisdom comes in many forms. I like it when it comes out of a childs mouth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 9:20:32 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 11:19 Paul wrote: "For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise." does this apply to folks on this forum as well as folks in the Fellowship? what do you think? Are'nt we all guilty of this given that we are not perfect? Just some thoughts going through my mind as I peruse threads on the forum; well I am not so wise myself so perhaps I can be excused. I dont see myself as wise by any long shot. I am told im a sucker for a hard luck story. If I come across as a fool or foolish would you tell me? People can be made to look and feel foolish by others who intimidate them. No we are not perfect. Is anyone claiming that? I havent seen anyone say they are wise so not sure what you are referring too. Or do you perceive someone is. Wisdom comes in many forms. I like it when it comes out of a childs mouth. Hi bubbles this is most unlike you, you seems to have taken this personal, but it was a general observation not directed at any particular person, not referring to any particular persons. Sorry if I have offended you personally.
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Post by bubbles on Apr 24, 2015 12:24:01 GMT -5
I dont see myself as wise by any long shot. I am told im a sucker for a hard luck story. If I come across as a fool or foolish would you tell me? People can be made to look and feel foolish by others who intimidate them. No we are not perfect. Is anyone claiming that? I havent seen anyone say they are wise so not sure what you are referring too. Or do you perceive someone is. Wisdom comes in many forms. I like it when it comes out of a childs mouth. Hi bubbles this is most unlike you, you seems to have taken this personal, but it was a general observation not directed at any particular person, not referring to any particular persons. Sorry if I have offended you personally. You havent offended me at all. No I wasnt taking it personally. Just commented on how I think. For me when I think about wisdom I remember the scripture about 'wisdom crying out in the streets.' Took yrs for me to understand it. I always see in your posts your gentle almost tentative approach. You come across as a kind man.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 24, 2015 18:16:21 GMT -5
Definitely this verse has to be read in context. To be honest the passage is puzzling to me and I haven't got a handle yet on the interpretation.
The verse you've isolated does NOT seem to be making any kind of commentary on how we should deal with "fools". Who is Paul addressing in this passage? It seems to be intelligent, but recent or new, and wavering, Gentile Christians. He's concerned that they are getting bad advice from other purported Christian preachers who are actually servants of Satan. Paul says a number of things in order to reach these people with the true Gospel. 1) I brought the Gospel free of charge. And don't think it is of little value because I did so. 2) I made sure I was not a burden to you (in first preaching the Gospel to you). Other established followers supported me. 3) I love you. 4) I don't have the gift of eloquence, but what I know is sure. 5) I'm a servant of righteousness while they merely masquerade. The truth will come out in the end.
In the middle of that Paul seems piqued that these Corinthians will "in their wisdom", i.e. at their discretion, suffer foolishness. Not only that but they'll suffer being exploited, taking advantage of and even allow themselves to be slapped in the face. So, he argues, if you're going to listen and suffer to such foolishness, then listen to my foolishness. My foolishness is that ... I am a Hebrew and Israelite as they are. And .. I have been beaten, flogged, endured many dangers. If I boast, though, I'll only boast about how a person as weak as I am could endure these things with the strength of God.
Finally, in 2 Co 11, "I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing." 1) I am apparently a fool to you and no match for these "super apostles". 2) But even though I am no match in natural ability, 3) if you could see that I have Christ Jesus in me (as he says later) you could see that I'm no fool at all.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 4:59:45 GMT -5
Thanks What Hat, this is the kind of thought provoking response I had anticipated; yes I agree that the passage is "puzzling" - ye suffer fools gladly yet ye are wise.
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Post by emy on Apr 25, 2015 13:15:10 GMT -5
Thanks What Hat, this is the kind of thought provoking response I had anticipated; yes I agree that the passage is "puzzling" - ye suffer fools gladly yet ye are wise. Reading a couple more modern versions, I got the idea Paul may have been saying that although (they) suffered fools, (they) would not hear him because (they) were too "wise". -- But not wise in godliness?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 14:40:32 GMT -5
I suppose it has something to do with Heavenly wisdom as distinct from Earthly wisdom, if there is such a distinction. There is a hymn which speaks of making us wise with Heavenly wisdom doing good while we can.... Hymn 34: Teach us Lord our days to number, That our hearts we may apply to wisdom, ever seeking Christ our Lord to glorify...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 14:41:19 GMT -5
Can you be wise in godliness Emy? I thought everything to do with God was based on faith? Does it mean someone with a stronger faith than someone else is wiser in godliness? I am curious as I found this statement interesting. Peter gives a list of things we should add to our faith, one of them is godliness (2 Peter 1 v 5 - 7)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2015 14:57:46 GMT -5
Peter gives a list of things we should add to our faith, one of them is godliness (2 Peter 1 v 5 - 7) So what exactly is godliness? And, what does this answer have to do with being wiser in godliness? Godliness is based on faith that there is a God so how can it be wisdom? You mentioned that you "thought everything to do with God was based on faith", that's why I pointed out that there are things we have to add to faith. Obviously, it doesn't completely answer the question you asked Emy. I'll leave that one for her
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Post by emy on Apr 25, 2015 16:01:55 GMT -5
That probably was not the best way to say what I had in mind. But sometimes I just can't/don't take the time to find just the right phrase/word aand the 'right word' is slower in coming these days!
Anyway, let's start here with this question: Do you believe that there is wisdom beyond the wisdom of humans? If not, what I said makes no sense, because I was referring to wisdom that God gives through His Spirit.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 25, 2015 18:56:46 GMT -5
Thanks What Hat, this is the kind of thought provoking response I had anticipated; yes I agree that the passage is "puzzling" - ye suffer fools gladly yet ye are wise. Reading a couple more modern versions, I got the idea Paul may have been saying that although (they) suffered fools, (they) would not hear him because (they) were too "wise". -- But not wise in godliness? I think that is correct. Paul is saying, "how can you suffer these foolish preachers when you are so wise", meaning intelligent. Not only that, but enduring abuse at their hands. The NIV is probably more clear: "You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face." It's not a criticism of natural intelligence the way I read it. More indignation that here are people who are intelligent, and don't seem to be able to figure things out. One other thing I noticed, is that this is not just a spitting match between rival preaching camps. Unfortunately, churches sometimes use verses like this to equate themselves with the true gospel and others with false preaching. Paul isn't concerned here with mere differences of interpretation. Rather, he commends righteousness and seeking to live a moral life, and condemns the moral licentiousness and serious failings of character that these Christians may be falling in to. He concludes the letter with these words: "For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged." No doubt this gives us a picture of the kinds of "fools" these supposedly "wise" people are consorting with.
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Post by snow on Apr 25, 2015 22:18:50 GMT -5
That probably was not the best way to say what I had in mind. But sometimes I just can't/don't take the time to find just the right phrase/word aand the 'right word' is slower in coming these days! Anyway, let's start here with this question: Do you believe that there is wisdom beyond the wisdom of humans? If not, what I said makes no sense, because I was referring to wisdom that God gives through His Spirit. That's a good question. I'm not sure humans are the smartest, but as far as believing in a god that gives us extra wisdom for having faith in him, I don't think I can truthfully answer yes. There very well could be an intellect higher than human intellect. But would that have to be a God?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 4:02:00 GMT -5
That probably was not the best way to say what I had in mind. But sometimes I just can't/don't take the time to find just the right phrase/word aand the 'right word' is slower in coming these days! Anyway, let's start here with this question: Do you believe that there is wisdom beyond the wisdom of humans? If not, what I said makes no sense, because I was referring to wisdom that God gives through His Spirit. That's a good question. I'm not sure humans are the smartest, but as far as believing in a god that gives us extra wisdom for having faith in him, I don't think I can truthfully answer yes. There very well could be an intellect higher than human intellect. But would that have to be a God? Well for me as a believer that is where this quotation comes in: " God's ways or not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts, And as the Heavens are above/ higher than the earth, so it is that His ways and thoughts are higher than ours."
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Post by maryhig on Apr 26, 2015 4:24:14 GMT -5
That probably was not the best way to say what I had in mind. But sometimes I just can't/don't take the time to find just the right phrase/word aand the 'right word' is slower in coming these days! Anyway, let's start here with this question: Do you believe that there is wisdom beyond the wisdom of humans? If not, what I said makes no sense, because I was referring to wisdom that God gives through His Spirit. That's a good question. I'm not sure humans are the smartest, but as far as believing in a god that gives us extra wisdom for having faith in him, I don't think I can truthfully answer yes. There very well could be an intellect higher than human intellect. But would that have to be a God? I have to speak! Argh! Or seeing as there could very well be a higher than human intellect, maybe think it could be God? And because we are in his image he's our God? And because he's our God he gives us wisdom when we are faithful? Wisdom is being able to discern spiritually and with wisdom comes understanding. With wisdom comes judgement from God. He gives it to you right at the minute it's needed. Jesus had wisdom to the full because his faith was strong and God's Spirit was fully with him. He judged everyone when the woman was to be stoned with just one sentence! This was wisdom from God! When you have God's spirit you are able to discern what is spoken whether it's from God or not. Just like naturally if you have a basket of fruit and there is bad fruit in it you can see it. Spiritually you can understand what is and isn't of God. We judge after our own thoughts, Gods spirit in your heart fights against your judgement. And gives you a conscience so what you would say, you don't. And what you would think you don't. You try and see the good side in people instead of the worst in them, like we so often do. Jesus only spoke God's word that's why he is the word. He judged not after the seeing of his eyes or the hearing of his ears. He was all God so his judgement was just. And he was able to judge because God blessed him with his wisdom. John 8 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. God walked with Jesus always because Jesus loves him with all his heart and never sinned in this flesh! So God's light shone through him at full beam. He was a bright and shining light in the darkness of this world. Full of the wisdom of the Father of lights!
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Post by maryhig on Apr 26, 2015 11:53:41 GMT -5
I have to speak! Argh! Or seeing as there could very well be a higher than human intellect, maybe think it could be God? And because we are in his image he's our God? And because he's our God he gives us wisdom when we are faithful? Wisdom is being able to discern spiritually and with wisdom comes understanding. With wisdom comes judgement from God. He gives it to you right at the minute it's needed. Jesus had wisdom to the full because his faith was strong and God's Spirit was fully with him. He judged everyone when the woman was to be stoned with just one sentence! This was wisdom from God! When you have God's spirit you are able to discern what is spoken whether it's from God or not. Just like naturally if you have a basket of fruit and there is bad fruit in it you can see it. Spiritually you can understand what is and isn't of God. We judge after our own thoughts, Gods spirit in your heart fights against your judgement. And gives you a conscience so what you would say, you don't. And what you would think you don't. You try and see the good side in people instead of the worst in them, like we so often do. Jesus only spoke God's word that's why he is the word. He judged not after the seeing of his eyes or the hearing of his ears. He was all God so his judgement was just. And he was able to judge because God blessed him with his wisdom. John 8 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. God walked with Jesus always because Jesus loves him with all his heart and never sinned in this flesh! So God's light shone through him at full beam. He was a bright and shining light in the darkness of this world. Full of the wisdom of the Father of lights! LOL you make me giggle with your trying to stay quiet. We don't want you to be quiet! Well since I'm an agnostic, I can't say that there is no higher power with a higher intellect. My problem with the most common definition of God is that it doesn't make any sense to me. I have read the entire bible. I have done a lot of research into many other religions. I've been on a journey. However, the more I learn the more I lean towards there being no such thing as a God. At least not one like many religions say exists. Sharon, on here, comes the closest to what I understand and could line up with as far as a spirituality. I don't do faith well, never have, never will I imagine. I know I've always been rubbish at keeping my mouth shut! I give myself a headache! Can you, (if you don't mind) tell me what you feel in a spiritual way, what you think could be there? I'm just curious
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Post by emy on Apr 26, 2015 13:47:10 GMT -5
Can you share how you have found Sharon's faith different from other Christians?
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Post by bubbles on Apr 27, 2015 8:25:39 GMT -5
That's a good question. I'm not sure humans are the smartest, but as far as believing in a god that gives us extra wisdom for having faith in him, I don't think I can truthfully answer yes. There very well could be an intellect higher than human intellect. But would that have to be a God? I have to speak! Argh! Or seeing as there could very well be a higher than human intellect, maybe think it could be God? And because we are in his image he's our God? And because he's our God he gives us wisdom when we are faithful? Wisdom is being able to discern spiritually and with wisdom comes understanding. With wisdom comes judgement from God. He gives it to you right at the minute it's needed. Jesus had wisdom to the full because his faith was strong and God's Spirit was fully with him. He judged everyone when the woman was to be stoned with just one sentence! This was wisdom from God! When you have God's spirit you are able to discern what is spoken whether it's from God or not. Just like naturally if you have a basket of fruit and there is bad fruit in it you can see it. Spiritually you can understand what is and isn't of God. We judge after our own thoughts, Gods spirit in your heart fights against your judgement. And gives you a conscience so what you would say, you don't. And what you would think you don't. You try and see the good side in people instead of the worst in them, like we so often do. Jesus only spoke God's word that's why he is the word. He judged not after the seeing of his eyes or the hearing of his ears. He was all God so his judgement was just. And he was able to judge because God blessed him with his wisdom. John 8 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. God walked with Jesus always because Jesus loves him with all his heart and never sinned in this flesh! So God's light shone through him at full beam. He was a bright and shining light in the darkness of this world. Full of the wisdom of the Father of lights! Jesus is the spirit if wisdom. 1 Cor 21-24 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through wisdom did not know God. It pleased god through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe For Jews request a sign, Greeks seek after wisdom. We preach Christ crucified. To the Jews a stumbling block to the Greeks foolishness but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and Christ the wisdom of God. "
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Post by maryhig on Apr 27, 2015 8:59:29 GMT -5
I have to speak! Argh! Or seeing as there could very well be a higher than human intellect, maybe think it could be God? And because we are in his image he's our God? And because he's our God he gives us wisdom when we are faithful? Wisdom is being able to discern spiritually and with wisdom comes understanding. With wisdom comes judgement from God. He gives it to you right at the minute it's needed. Jesus had wisdom to the full because his faith was strong and God's Spirit was fully with him. He judged everyone when the woman was to be stoned with just one sentence! This was wisdom from God! When you have God's spirit you are able to discern what is spoken whether it's from God or not. Just like naturally if you have a basket of fruit and there is bad fruit in it you can see it. Spiritually you can understand what is and isn't of God. We judge after our own thoughts, Gods spirit in your heart fights against your judgement. And gives you a conscience so what you would say, you don't. And what you would think you don't. You try and see the good side in people instead of the worst in them, like we so often do. Jesus only spoke God's word that's why he is the word. He judged not after the seeing of his eyes or the hearing of his ears. He was all God so his judgement was just. And he was able to judge because God blessed him with his wisdom. John 8 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. God walked with Jesus always because Jesus loves him with all his heart and never sinned in this flesh! So God's light shone through him at full beam. He was a bright and shining light in the darkness of this world. Full of the wisdom of the Father of lights! Jesus is the spirit if wisdom. 1 Cor 21-24 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through wisdom did not know God. It pleased god through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe For Jews request a sign, Greeks seek after wisdom. We preach Christ crucified. To the Jews a stumbling block to the Greeks foolishness but to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and Christ the wisdom of God. " Maybe it's because of our different beliefs in the Trinity this could be the reason why we think differently on this. I feel wisdom is from God through Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Or is that what you mean, and I've got it wrong? Like I do! :\
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 27, 2015 15:54:01 GMT -5
Can you share how you have found Sharon's faith different from other Christians? Maryhig and Emy. Sharon seems to not have any one religion she believes in and she can correct me if I'm wrong. She seems interested in some of the Buddhist and Hindu beliefs and I find them intriguing also. Some of the people she mentions and books she has read I know of and have read too. As far as spirituality goes, I don't believe in a judgmental God, heaven or hell etc. I do think that if there is a higher power/intellect out there, that we would be a part of it since it would hard to be separate from something that has created everything. I would see it more as an interconnection between everything. But lately I really don't see any sign of there being a higher power or any kind of sense at all to this existence. I am slowly becoming more atheist than agnostic I think. You might want to reflect a bit before you apply the “Christian” label to me. There are some Christians (including current 2X2 members) who consider me a fellow believer. There are others who would probably consider me as being closer to an atheist. (I don’t mind either way.) I don’t care much about labels people wear, the ideas that circle in their heads, or the beliefs they think they hold. I mostly care about how they show up. And, to my mind, Galatians 5:22-23 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance” is one of the best lists I have come across in all the wisdom traditions. When I see these qualities in people, I feel a sense of kinship and a feeling of renewed confidence that the world is unfolding precisely as it should. I think there is a lot of power and inexpressible feelings of peace and deep meaning when we manage to connect with the silence/stillness that is the ground of our own being. One of the easiest ways to do this is to drop thoughts of the future and of the past, judgements of oneself and others, and just be intensely aware of being right here, right now, your breath going in and out, alive to the input of every one of your senses. I used to do this in the quiet time before meetings and in my alone time. I am learning to live more and more of my whole life this way. I have respect for the wisdom traditions at helping people connect in this way. But I also see how the things you learn as a child can become mostly a hindrance. Sometimes it is best for people to step away and find other ways to connect that are effective and meaningful to them . Other ways could even be as simple as watching a sunset or a night sky, gratitude for a purring cat, appreciation for a good cup of coffee, work that you are passionate about. I do believe that our existence here is deeply significant. It is something I rarely intellectualize and could not even begin to articulate. Perhaps it has far more to do with an overall progression of consciousness than with anything too individual to a human being. But I also know that how you show up as an individual is important, because it contributes to the whole. If I have faith, this would be a principle article of faith for me: “Everything might seem to be a mess, but all is well.”
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Post by emy on Apr 27, 2015 16:33:13 GMT -5
Ah! I understand now. I was thinking of sharingtheriches, who is another Sharon, I believe.
BTW, I can endorse this for what it means to have faith: "If I have faith, this would be a principle article of faith for me: “Everything might seem to be a mess, but all is well.” Though for me, the reason that all is well is God.
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Post by withlove on Apr 28, 2015 1:35:43 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread--thanks for starting it and all the info/ideas. Thing brings up some confusion for me... Somewhere it says that anyone who calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire...but then Paul does. Also, we are to turn the other cheek when someone hits us, correct? But Paul says it's foolish to allow that? Thank you in advance for anyone who can explain this.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 28, 2015 20:48:50 GMT -5
The Apostle Paul, who started as one of Christianity's most zealous enemies, was hand-picked by Jesus Christ to become the gospel's most ardent messenger. Paul traveled tirelessly through the ancient world, taking the message of salvation to the Gentiles. Paul towers as one of the all-time giants of Christianity. christianity.about.com/od/newtestamentpeople/a/Apostle-Paul.htm Nathan, your post was a copy of an article by someone named Jack Zavada. Can you tell us why we should rely on what he says?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 23:21:33 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread--thanks for starting it and all the info/ideas. Thing brings up some confusion for me... Somewhere it says that anyone who calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire...but then Paul does. Also, we are to turn the other cheek when someone hits us, correct? But Paul says it's foolish to allow that? Thank you in advance for anyone who can explain this. Paul says a lot of things that contradict what Jesus said. I see Paul as the founder of Christianity not Jesus. Jesus never wanted to be a Christian, he wanted to reform the Jewish people. He was a Jew and never wanted to be anything else. So it really isn't hard to understand that there were contradictions. Paul had a more pagan viewpoint, likely because of where he lived. I doubt Jesus would have allowed for no circumcision either. We have to remember that Paul never met Jesus in real life, just in what he says was a vision, which no one can confirm one way or the other. The apostles did not like Paul or his message and disagreed with him on many points. They tried to shut him up several times. paul was a jew not a pagan...
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Post by emy on Apr 29, 2015 0:19:08 GMT -5
Paul says a lot of things that contradict what Jesus said. I see Paul as the founder of Christianity not Jesus. Jesus never wanted to be a Christian, he wanted to reform the Jewish people. He was a Jew and never wanted to be anything else. So it really isn't hard to understand that there were contradictions. Paul had a more pagan viewpoint, likely because of where he lived. I doubt Jesus would have allowed for no circumcision either. We have to remember that Paul never met Jesus in real life, just in what he says was a vision, which no one can confirm one way or the other. The apostles did not like Paul or his message and disagreed with him on many points. They tried to shut him up several times. Matt 16:18 has words that sound somewhat different: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 0:57:49 GMT -5
Nathan, your post was a copy of an article by someone named Jack Zavada. Can you tell us why we should rely on what he says?
I copy because I agree what he wrote about Paul the apostle. You don't have to agree with me. That is not the point , whether I agree with you or not. It is OK if you agree with the author.
The point I was making was you should at least give the person who wrote it the credit. Just put quotes marks around if nothing else.
I could determine that it wasn't the way that you usually worded your own posts. (which, by the way, is often the method by which scholars can determine who wrote certain pieces of literature.)
That is why I checked it out and found it was word for word by Jack Zavada .
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 30, 2015 1:21:27 GMT -5
Paul says a lot of things that contradict what Jesus said. I see Paul as the founder of Christianity not Jesus. Jesus never wanted to be a Christian, he wanted to reform the Jewish people. He was a Jew and never wanted to be anything else. So it really isn't hard to understand that there were contradictions. Paul had a more pagan viewpoint, likely because of where he lived. I doubt Jesus would have allowed for no circumcision either. We have to remember that Paul never met Jesus in real life, just in what he says was a vision, which no one can confirm one way or the other. The apostles did not like Paul or his message and disagreed with him on many points. They tried to shut him up several times. paul was a jew not a pagan... Yes, of course, -we know that Paul was a Jew. We also know that Paul came from Tarsus, -one of the most learned cities in the area.
"Alexander the Great brought Hellenization (Grecian thought, influence, and customs) with him when he took over the city and all of Asia Minor".
Although Paul was a Jew, he was also steeped in that Hellenistic milieu. That background does show through some of his way of thinking.
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Post by withlove on May 2, 2015 1:10:12 GMT -5
Thanks, snow and dmmich for explanations.
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